N/A - Insurance liability and breaking the law - BarnetDad

So my wife was involved in a low speed RTA the other day. Nobody was hurt, no airbags went off, so that's all good.

However, there is an interesting question over liability here that is baffling me.

In this instance, she was turning right out of a side road into a normal single carriageway road. She'd been "let out" by a car, because there was congestion on that part of the road approaching traffic lights, and a "keep clear" zone was there to facilitate people entering/leaving that side road (which leads to a supermarket car park).

However, a van was illegally overtaking the queue of traffic and struck her.

I'm told that this could be regarded as her liability, because people coming out of a side road have the onus on them to check that it's safe to do so - regardless of whether the other driver is committing a traffic offence or not.

This seemed pretty unfair to me. Certainly if I'd crossed a solid white line (and hatched area) and hit someone, I'd be assuming that it was my fault.

But maybe these are two unrelated events in the eyes of the law - sure, the van driver had broken the law (and could be fined), but the actual accident is my wife's fault - and she should be aware of this possibility.

Any comments?

One other thing is that I've been told that dashcam footage would have been very useful indeed and would change the scenario - why?! If the basic facts of the accident are not in dispute, then how could "proof" from a dashcam really make any difference?

Thanks!

PS - despite loads of people being there, not a single one offered to be a witness - the only interaction was of an angry driver stuck behind my wife beeping their horn for her to get out of the way just after the collision! Another pedestrian took a photo, but for her own social media rather than as any kind of information...

N/A - Insurance liability and breaking the law - bathtub tom

I reckon that could be a 'knock for knock' settlement after the insurance companies read the 'he said, she said' statements.

Just a thought, but what if the van had been a bike or motorbike legally filtering?

N/A - Insurance liability and breaking the law - gordonbennet

This is a difficult one, in that was the van illegally overtaking, or was turning right at the lights ahead of him and moving up to the (probably) smaller queue for the lights.

Also was the car who let her out turning left into the road she was emerging from, if it was indicating then the van again could have a valid reason for going past.

Leaving my work is a similar exit to the one your wife was taking, sometimes people coming from my right will indicate their intention to let you go (some just slow up without indicating**), again sometimes people from the left will co-operate too (yes the last dying days of courtesy, treasure them before they vanish forever), and i try to get out smartly to make sure those who slowed to let m,e out are held up for as little as possible...However...think bike...always but always emerge slowly enough that if a biker or cyclist is hammering past the traffic, especially to your right, that your way is clear before emerging.

Hopefully your wife took pictures of the incident at the time before vehicles moved on, and together with picture of the road layout she might be held not to be at fault if the van would be held to blame by a reasonable person.

Dashcam may not have helped in this situation, as it would not have shown the build up to this from the van's perspective.

**on our annual driving assessment our trainer tells us not to indicate to anyone else that they can pull out in front or similar, by doing so you (the flasher or waver) are taking part responsibility for what may happen...yes by all means leave a suitable gap but whether the other driver takes advantage of it is then entirely their responsibility...this has come hard for some of us who came from the old school of courteous lorry driving, ie that quick flash of the left indicator to let an obviously competent driver behind know its safe to overtake is now frowned upon.

blame and claim culture has destroyed so much of what made this country in so many different ways.

Edited by gordonbennet on 26/05/2019 at 10:36

N/A - Insurance liability and breaking the law - BarnetDad

OK, so my wife is a technophobe newly-retired Doctor and would certainly not take photos (I came along and took photos of damage to car/van). We did not involve the police (is it too late to do so now?). General wisdom these days is that doing so is a waste of time unless it's important (i.e. someone is injured).

But thanks for all the feedback that confirms my expectations. Unless the van driver has concocted some alternative explanation for their boss (who is the policyholder) I'm hoping that the details of the accident will not be contested. I think the nature of the damage make it pretty much impossible for an alternative explanation to carry much weight.

In the end, I don't think it makes much difference to my wife's future insurability whether it's 50:50 or 100% her fault. It's more about her sense of justice!

N/A - Insurance liability and breaking the law - FP

I assume we are supposed to put together two points which are separate in the OP's account.

He states that the van involved was "illegally overtaking the queue of traffic". He later says "...if I'd crossed a solid white line (and hatched area)..."

So we assume this describes the van, though it's not directly stated. (I have my barrack-room lawyer's hat on here.)

Were the police involved? They should have been, as the van driver had committed an offence.

The OP's comment "...maybe these are two unrelated events in the eyes of the law..." is probably true up to a point, though I would say the van driver would be held at least partly responsible for causing the accident.

I can't see that dashcam footage would have helped in this case, unless there was any other detail the OP has not mentioned - e.g. an admission of liability by the van driver which could have been caught on microphone.

The lack of public-spiritedness of potential witnesses is disappointing, but if the facts are not disputed it makes no difference.

As has been suggested, the insurance companies will probably decide it's not worth investing much time and effort into a detailed investigation and agree on 50/50.

The most important thing is that no-one was hurt, though if speeds had been higher it could have been different.

One lesson the OP's wife could draw from this is that she must proceed only when she can see her way is clear. If I understand the situation correctly, she did not think that anyone would be "illegally overtaking" and did not see the van until it was too late.

The use of a dashcam could be a good idea generally.

Edited by FP on 26/05/2019 at 11:49

N/A - Insurance liability and breaking the law - Bromptonaut

I think OP's wife will be lucky to improve on 50/50 for this one as she pulled out into path of another vehicle. Had he other driver not been making an illegal manoeuvre I think she'd have been 100%.

Look at it from a road safety/defensive driving perspective she has something to learn. Always make sure YOU can see your way clear before moving off. Same as checing before crossing a green light.

N/A - Insurance liability and breaking the law - BarnetDad

I'm getting the impression you're correct here.

So he broke the law but she was "careless" (don't tell her I said that, though!).

It is possible to upload images here by way of explanation, BTW?

N/A - Insurance liability and breaking the law - FP

"It is possible to upload images here by way of explanation, BTW?"

Unfortunately not.

You would have to upload them to an external site and post a link here.