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Utter rubbish. 15 minutes of full power operation in 1st gear only works out to 300 to 400 take offs from rest. So, based on your suposition 1st gear could be kaput after just a years motoring!
I spent 25 years as an engineer at Rover Group and now work for it's evolved equivalent. Overall, vehicles are designed for a lifetime of 12 years or 120,000 miles and engineering standards are intended to reflect this. this is pretty much standard across the industry.
Interestingly, many of the old Rover Engineering Standards have actually been reduced in severity to match Ford standards during Ford ownership. However, under independant ownership, we are now moving back in the other direction. You need to remember that at Ford, Purchase rule the roost, whereas at our place we are an Engineering led organisation (indeed our CEO is an Engineer)
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All companies go through their phases when they lose the plot for a while, they make lemon cars lemon engine lemon gearboxes lemon electronics, or their vehicles aren't up to the kind of work they should be capable of, they either sort their act out PDQ or see sales or used values plummet together with their previously good reputation in their chosen markets, and when used values plummet that usually affects private, if not fleet, sales.
I think the problem, for people like me anyway, is that increasingly components are sealed units designed not to be user serviceable, we all used to think nothing of slipping a new wheel bearing in, or a set of brushes/brush pack in an alternator, even a clutch was a few hours graft with a mate to help with the lift out and in.
So what was a few quid and an hour to fix an alternator or noisy wheel bearing or a day and £50 parts and a crate of beers for your mate for the clutch, now runs into several hundreds of pounds for any one of these items due to them increasingly being sealed or specialised units buried deep and requiring specialist tools and skills with four figure sums not unheard of re the clutches which now need a trick flywheel because fings are so much better than they used to be apparently..:-)...excuse the flippancy.
Some (most) makers in my humble peaked around the late 80's and 90's for long life car design, helped by the huge improvements in anti corrosion work, some seem to have learned from their mistakes when they sat on their previous reputation and made some errors and made great strides to recover (MB deserves praise here), some have only just come to realise that the internet generation doesn't just view glossy sales videos, they also incresingly discuss failings too.
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I think the problem, for people like me anyway, is that increasingly components are sealed units designed not to be user serviceable, we all used to think nothing of slipping a new wheel bearing in, or a set of brushes/brush pack in an alternator, even a clutch was a few hours graft with a mate to help with the lift out and in.
I remember removing a Ford Pop 3 speed box, opening it and replacing the first gear cog which had shed teeth. Sadly, although there are clever niche engineering outfits in the UK, mass production of reliable modern gearboxes seems to be beyond us. Clever UK engineering graduates seem to prefer financial rather than mechanical engineering, which is why Stuttgart and Friedrichshafen are such prosperous towns, while Coventry and Bradford aren't.
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Utter rubbish. 15 minutes of full power operation in 1st gear only works out to 300 to 400 take offs from rest.
I suspect the meaning was 15 consecutive minutes at max continuous power, similar to the restriction that might apply to an aero engine.
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Utter rubbish. 15 minutes of full power operation in 1st gear only works out to 300 to 400 take offs from rest.
I suspect the meaning was 15 consecutive minutes at max continuous power, similar to the restriction that might apply to an aero engine.
That is the way I understood it. (Even drag racers don't stay in first for long!).
I know some parts and subassemblies are endurance tested to establish a mean time between failures/expected life and the results analysed to decide if they need beefing up.
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Utter rubbish. 15 minutes of full power operation in 1st gear only works out to 300 to 400 take offs from rest.
I suspect the meaning was 15 consecutive minutes at max continuous power, similar to the restriction that might apply to an aero engine.
Am I right in thinking that once the car has accelerated up to the maximum speed of first gear, the amount of actual power being transmitted would be relatively low?
The engine RPM would be hitting the limiter of course if the car was simply held at full throttle in first gear.
If it was towing a weight that would hold the car at peak power RPM with wide open throttle I can well believe it would explode after 15 mins...
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Cyd, do you think that Ford's cost engineering is more prevalent than say, VAG, and other manufacturers ? And do you believe that- possibly-- the Japanese manufacturers emphasise total quality to a greater extent?
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I've no actual evidence to prove this, but I think it's generally agreed that the Japanese invest a higher proportion of the cost of a car into the oily bits, and a lower amount into the quality of the interior plastics.
That may also be true of Ford: Fords are often criticised in road tests for plasticky interiors, but they have a reasonably good reputation for reliability over high mileages.
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I spent 25 years as an engineer at Rover Group and now work for it's evolved equivalent. Overall, vehicles are designed for a lifetime of 12 years or 120,000 miles and engineering standards are intended to reflect this. this is pretty much standard across the industry.
Interestingly, many of the old Rover Engineering Standards have actually been reduced in severity to match Ford standards during Ford ownership. However, under independant ownership, we are now moving back in the other direction. You need to remember that at Ford, Purchase rule the roost, whereas at our place we are an Engineering led organisation (indeed our CEO is an Engineer)
Cars are built to use Parts, servicing and wear and tear parts as well as "accident damage".
See all those Rover dealers who went to the wall, not because of the cars, but because with the Honda association and then BMW a lot of the silly quirks were ironed out and the workshops had less of them coming in.
It is now the electronic trickery and alterations, ie where before you could replace a wheel bearing, now it is the hub as well, and therefore hub bushes and/or suspension arms associated with them. Cyd can probably remember the borg/warner auto boxes still in the 80's where a competent mechanic could rebuild one. Try that with a current generation ZF in a jaguar. £7000+...
The point of selling cars is ti provide a continued income stream.
That comes from parts and labour and naturally during the warranty period the annual visits to the dealership.
I steered a good few people towards the salesmen when big bills were around.
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. Cyd can probably remember the borg/warner auto boxes still in the 80's where a competent mechanic could rebuild one. Try that with a current generation ZF in a jaguar. £7000+...
The point of selling cars is ti provide a continued income stream.
But the thing about ZF boxes is that they almost never have to be rebuilt. They are designed for longevity, much like many of the cars which use them, although the 6HP might well be the best bit of functioning engineering left in a 10yr old Jag.
If planned obsolescence really was a feature of car manufacture it is hardly surprising that those who espoused it failed.
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. Cyd can probably remember the borg/warner auto boxes still in the 80's where a competent mechanic could rebuild one. Try that with a current generation ZF in a jaguar. £7000+...
The point of selling cars is ti provide a continued income stream.
But the thing about ZF boxes is that they almost never have to be rebuilt. They are designed for longevity, much like many of the cars which use them, although the 6HP might well be the best bit of functioning engineering left in a 10yr old Jag.
If planned obsolescence really was a feature of car manufacture it is hardly surprising that those who espoused it failed.
Styling changes every couple of years were the norm at one time to ensure people traded in for a new one, Ford, GM and Chrysler all did this.
There are companies who didn't play that game and the classic example is Morgan, still in business and able to sell all they can make.
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There are companies who didn't play that game and the classic example is Morgan, still in business and able to sell all they can make.
Then there's Toyota (and even more Lexus) who for some reason bash some new models ever harder with the ugly stick, leading to their customers hanging onto their older models for longer and longer periods.
Have a look at a mid noughties Landcruiser3/4/5, or even a Lexus 460 of say 2008, then look at the current equivalents, what is going on at the design centre, the latest Lexus' look like they let some youth empty a street race tuning shop of every crass spoiler they couldn't give away and bunged 'em on willy nilly..
Being a long term Toyota fan, which started in my kerbside cowboy days when what was underneath the shiny panels impressed me, i'm particularly disappointed in what has happened to their previously conservative styling, though arguably Honda have done the same with Accord and Civic, successfully alienating their previous repeat core buyers..
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Then there's Toyota (and even more Lexus) who for some reason bash some new models ever harder with the ugly stick, leading to their customers hanging onto their older models for longer and longer periods.
Have a look at a mid noughties Landcruiser3/4/5, or even a Lexus 460 of say 2008, then look at the current equivalents...
I agree. I rather like my 2007 'baby' Landcruiser. I've not felt the need to trade it in for the newer model. I could, perhaps, have been persuaded to go for the 4.5 diesel but the price was just too high.
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ZF gearboxes in Landrovers (and Range Rovers) seem to fail quite often, as a matter of when not if. I'd hedge my bets with an Aisin box
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Interesting. The old 4HP box probably had a harder life in these agricultural vehicles than it was designed for but owing to Rover's failure to make one I guess they had to buy in what they thought best.
I thought it might be useful to share this snippet from As***** transmissions (asterisks in case we are not allowed to mention firms). It supports my contention that if it works it is best left alone - see after my 'bolded' type and especially the last sentence :
I have a 4 speed ZF Auto and it sticks in first gear in the morning or when cold and is reluctant to change up from 1st gear. Once the gearbox has warmed up it shifts normally. Why?
The governor valve is sticking, which can be caused by contamination. i.e. clutch plates or other parts disintegrating. The fine debris finds its way past the filter and tends to accumulate in the governor, causing it to stick. A temporary solution is to remove and clean the governor. The problem will often recur as debris from damaged parts continues to build up in the governor. If the problem continues after cleaning the governor then it may be necessary it replace your Autobox.
We have noticed many customers reporting this fault starting a few days after an oil and filter change and after researching this using our experience and the expertise of others in the trade we have come to the conclusion that as ATF oil is a detergent type oil, when the oil is changed this will dislodge and stir up settled debris in the autobox which in turn jams the governor valve. In light of this although it sounds controversial it is debateable if changing the oil and filter is a good idea, some say if the box it going to fail it will fail if the oil is good or bad and their advice is leave it alone. I am still undecided but the truth is I get a lot of calls from customers thinking they are looking after the autobox by servicing it and a few days later this fault occurs.
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Thats very interesting, particularly if it's coming from Ashcroft transmissions, very respected company. I had heard that transmission flushes are dangerous, ie where it gets pumped out as the debris will become dislodged, but changing the oil by letting it flow naturally out of the drain plug is ok.
I was actually going to start a thread on this but i'll put it here, why not change the ATF yearly? It's not expensive, wouldn't this prevent alot of the debris buildup too? Just a thought!
ATF fluid change certainly worked this Discovery 2 owner with a ZF box, www.discovery2.co.uk/Autobox_Oil.html sorry for the large font i'm not sure how to reduce it in this box.
"My friend who also has a TD5 auto had a small issue of the box being reluctant to change up from 1st gear on the initial start of the day. The cold weather seemed to "promote" this issue, how ever I can report that after "2" oil and filter changes the problem no longer exists!!!,"
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Autobox oil changing is part of my service regime especially when i get a new, to me, car.
With the Aisin boxes in my two Japanese autos, its rather involved to flush the TC through so i simply drain three sumpfulls (all hold roughly 5 litres) over the period of few days, to allow the new oil to circulate, and replace each time with new.
Probably replace around 70% of the oil that way, then one sumpful swapped annually to keep some fresh going into the system.
No more difficult than an engine oil change done at the same time.
Dexron 3 costs around £60 for 20 litres so hardly a bank breaker, infintely cheaper than fixing a neglected box.
My MB box i've never got involved in, the oil in that box has been changed (inc TC) by my indy roughly every 4 years in the 14 years we've had the car, its the bomb proof mechanical 4 speed so should last for ever.
All other transmission oils get changed when i buy cars too, again never normally get a problem in the drive train.
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when we research, which most of us on here actually do, we find problems in parts..
MB brake actuator switches programmed to do a finite number of actions.
VW. DSG transmissions that might last the warranty and a tiny bit more, window winding mechanisms/ timing chains/belts/water pumps/ and the list could go on.
There are other culprits, too many to list for GM...
virtually everybody with clutches made to minimum spec.
I remember when a friend had cars coming in in an Opel dealership in the 80's he used to upgrade the clutch when it came in for a change, larger disc and pressure plate.
I repeat that parts ARE made for a finite life and due to production techniques where some vehicles require an engine out procedure to change a cambelt or other, then thet are made to provide a continued income stream.
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