You could always get the injectors cleaned. My Turbo XUD was very smokey on acceleration, a solvent clean of the injectors sorted this, and helped the economy too, cost about £50 at a local fuel injection specialist.
The bad starting could be an air leak in the fuel line somewhere, before starting it, open the bonnet and try squeezing the priming pump (bulbous thing in the fuel line). If this is easy to press a few times before feeling more solid then there's almost definately an air leak.
If after priming the fuel pump it starts ok then take it back and stand over them while they fix it.
As far as economy goes..... Depends how you drive. the non turbo XUD isn't terribly efficient at 70+, try driving it gently at 55-60 for a tank and see how you go.
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Oh yes meant to mention the clutch..... don't know about the 306 but the turbo d xantia is known for having a clutch that gets very heavy with age. New cable helps but a really heavy clutch is a sign that it needs replacing. Apparently they almost never slip, but your left leg begins to bulge with the effort of changing gear.
You may find yours is fine after the new cable.
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I have just been outside removing the remains of the old cable - and it can only be described as "copulated" if you catch my drift - rather nasty burns on it and it is extremly stretchy.
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Quite close to the fuel pump on the right? yes that bulb is squishy - I havnt got time tonight to push the car back and take it out of 1st so I can try starting it - it made a sort of bubbly noise and then went hard (ahem!)....
Also, whilst having a look around - it seemed to have a half mangled orange bag around the power steering ram - is this normal? I thought they were supposed to have a rubber gator - the ram is covered in muck....
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Hi Rob - in my opinion it should be impossible to get less than 10 miles/litre out of a 306 XLD (even if it has a turbo and you thrash it). My advice is to give it one or two good doses of injector cleaner followed by 10-12 mile runs at ~60 mph in 4th - the standard treatment for cleaning the system - before you think about paying a garage to clean the injectors. If the car has sat 'dead' for several months it may gradually free up again, and the fuel return may improve too. I hope it has had regular oil changes, but if it has been a fleet car they may not have been frequent enough (see various previous threads on this site).
As regards the price, that doesn't mean much with a trade-in, but it seems a lot to me. One thing in the car's favour - it won't have a cat!
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hehe true!
I will try that also after the clutch cable is fixed - Funnily enough the garage were stupid and on their "4 month" warrenty there are no get out of jail free clauses for stuff like this so once I have found out what is wrong (exhausted all possiblities etc) then I will take it back and explain to them what to fix. I dont think its THAT unreasonable - they told me it has had a full service, and he did sell my clio for a lot more than it was worth - M reg BeBop 1.2i with 70,000 miles, I paid £2000 for it and he got it for £1300 trade-in, then promptly put it on the forecourt for £2750. I am never going anywhere near that garage again once this is sorted.
Do you know the names of some of the known-good cleaning products? how much should I use?
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Rob - I don't think you should necessarily blacklist this garage - they may just price everything high, but the difference is what really matters. He will never get anywhere near £2750 for a straight sale, but he can offer inflated p-x values to make a punter feel good.
I'm not clear what you are planning to 'clean'. Autoglym offers a wide range of products to clean almost anything in/on a car, and I find the polish and glass cleaner very good and fairly effortless to use.
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I meant fuel additive / injector cleaner that you stick in the fuel.
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Sorry Rob - the experts on this site seem to favour Millers, but I haven't found that on any shelf round here. Nitrox has worked for me, and there are several others including Forte which is used by many MoT stations as a quick fix to get dirty diesels through the emissions test. Make sure you get the diesel, not the petrol-engine cleaner.
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The accelerator cables are known to give problems, and I believe some are a pain to fit.
I had a 405 with this engine, and from new it used a lot of oil, so much so that I ran it out of oil as I wasn't used to anything requiring oil between services before. The fuel consumption was also poor from new, and in various discussions it seems that some were good, others not so. I did mostly motorway miles and the poor thing could hardly keep up speed on hills. Anyway, it finally bit the dust when a glow plug fell into the cylinder and wrecked it - good ridance.
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Yeh looking at it looks like a nightmare.
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I,ve always found accelerator cables pretty easy - clutch, now that is something else.
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Well, it was easy to get the 2 halves of the cable off - re-fitting a new one I havnt tried yet, I will let you know tommorow.
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Just an update - The clutch now seems to be ok after a nightmare of replacing it - Wasnt too bad tho with the help of the haynes manual. However it was extremly difficult to start this morning - even more so than usual. Going to take it for a run in a bit and get some stuff to put in the fuel. I'll keep you posted.
Cheers for the help so far tho guys!
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It was very cold this morning, presuming glow plus OK (which they sound as though they are) I still think you either have injector problems resulting in a poor atomization spray pattern (poor staring and poor fuel economy) or you have reduced compression (bore wear - unlikely?).
If the injectors have never been changed (probably!) then you should replace them anyway rather than spending a lot on cleaning potions, which do work to a point but cant fix worn injectors. You will save a bob or two in fuel as well. If replacing injectors does fix the problem change your oil! as it will be contaminated with Diesel.
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I thought new injectors were very expensive. Advice I had was that they rarely actually need replacing and a good solvent clean was far far cheaper.
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I tend to agree with you Mr F.
I would be thinking of changing the injectors very last unless it was running like a pig.
I have loads of experience of this engine type and know of many on untouched injectors at huge mileages. There are three in the yard at present with mileages of 104K, 112K and 142K...all original injectors and perfect. We had a BX with history from new and untouched injectors at 225K, ran perfectly. In fact I know the injectors have never been touched in 30 years on my tractor...still perfect.
Rob's starting problems are most likely to be cranking speed (battery or starter), glowplugs (even new ones can be poor if cheap brand), glowplug relay faults, cold temp fast idle waxstat failure, air or blockage in fuel system.
Of course you could go onto think about stop solenoid, compression, valve timing and injector pump faults but these are less likely.
Yes the injectors are expensive new from dealers but mail order OE exchange are affordable and the local diesel place should clean/check them for about £40 the set if you take them out of the car.
I'm not saying it can't be the injectors, just to spend useful time looking elsewhere first.
MM
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Possible good news about your 2/Jan 23:22 posting:
My 306 has had a "half mangled orange bag around the power steering ram" since new, though I would describe it as being around the central part of the steering rack. It seems to be a waxy papery protective covering that must have been around the steering rack when it was first fitted to the car in the factory, and nobody has ever bothered to remove.
Ian
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Rob/Ian,
I couldn't say if they all have this odd bag thing but I reckon I've seen it on most that have been here.
MM
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Hi guys!!
Time for an update -
I had a look at the neighbours 306 and his has an orange bag on it too.
I bought diesel cleaner yesterday (Nitrox) - and did as it said on the tin - the car doesnt smoke as much now but I had to do a drive from where I live (cornwall) to newbury and back - Fuel economy on the drive was DIRE - it wasnt doing more than 33-34 to the gallon - It was all the way on the A303 so 60mph pretty much all the way :/
Battery was new a week after I had it so I dont think its that - The starter also seems to turn the engine over nice and quick so I am not sure what I am looking for there...
What is the "cold temp fast idle waxstat" - is that the peice of gubbins that keeps the throttle open slightly higher when its cold ?? - My car seems to idle at the same speed all the time (around 650-750 revs) no matter the temperature so I think that might be a good place to look - any advice MiddleMan?
Also if you prime the fuel system it make the car easier to start but not significantly.
Also it burnt a pint of oil going to newbury and back - in my mind that cant be good !
I'd welcome some more thoughts if you have them Middleman/others!
:O) - Rob
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Rob - If your 306 only gives 34 mpg on a long run it has a serious problem. At 60 mph it should be at least 50 mpg. As a diesel engine is so simple that once started it runs on with very little help until you do something to stop it, I wonder whether it has recently had a new timing belt which has been set wrong. Any comments from the tradesmen?
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Fuel economy on the drive was DIRE - it wasnt doing more than 33-34 to the gallon - It was all the way on the A303 so 60mph pretty much all the way :/ Also it burnt a pint of oil going to newbury and back - in my mind that cant be good !
These two things worry me about this Pug, Rob. It should do at least 45 mpg, and nearer 50 mpg at those speeds. To burn a pint of oil on a return trip from Cornwall to Newbury is unacceptably high, in my opinion. I'm struggling to suggest an obvious problem, but I'm sure these two things are at the root cause of the car's ills.
Ian Cook
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Ian,
I was worrying about the starting more than the oil/fuel consumption.
There are several expensive things that could cause these twin faults but just a long shot Rob...could your air filter or intake pipework be so badly blocked that the engine is drawing excess air through the engine breather and consuming oil that way??
MM
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You know a lot more than I do, MM, about XUD starting problems. I would have to drive the car for a couple of days to get a "feel" for what the problem might be - and blunder my way to an answer
....but something's not right, here. Assuming Rob's got it running (eventually) then his fuel and oil consumption still remain an issue. I totally agree with your earlier post about injectors performing well at high mileages. I've had them reconditioned around the 90k mark and it didn't improve fuel consumption one little bit.
A blocked air filter could be the cause. It would, of course, restrict power as there is no throttle on a diesel, other than the injector pump putting in less fuel. So, if the air filter were partially blocked then I suppose Rob would give it more welly to maintain speed, but I think it would be seriously down on power.
Just thinking back to injectors for a minute, is it possible for an injector to "stick" open? They are, after all, a form of non-return valve that emits a fine spray when the thing opens. If this were the case I'd expect the engine to sound a little lumpy.
I've got splinters in my fingers, now - head scratching!
;-)
Ian Cook
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My 309 GTI had a "bag thing" around the power steering rack. It was black on mine however.
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Rob,
This device is a waxstat (alloy about 30mm dia) screwed into the cooling passageways with a cable off it to the injector pump.
When cold the cable should pull the idle lever to about 1000 rpm, as the car heats this gradually lets back to (ideally) around 750rpm.
It does this by injecting more fuel so I think it helps a cold start from that respect as well as "catching" the engine to fire as it turns over. Then it makes it less likely to stall and need a second churning to start again.
These are quite commonly seized after 100K yet few folks (and garages!) seem to know or bother about them.
Another thing that can help a great deal is glowplug duration. For a 100K plus engine they start far far better if you wait approx 4 secs after the heat light has gone out...count one-elephant, two-elephant, three-elephant, four-elephant...ha ha but it works.
Perhaps you know but the glowplugs continue heating after the dash light goes out and this extra period seems to compensate for an older engine.
Good luck.
RE. plastic bag: They do all have them, it's just you get so used to them you don't take any notice. I've two Xantias and a 306 at here the moment and they all have the bag!
MM
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The waxstat doesn't work on my xantia. I did get all worried about this for a while but realised that as the car starts and runs from cold perfectly well, there doesn't seem to be much point going to the hassle.
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Mr F,
As you say if it goes OK then no great hassle. Has yours seized in the fast or slow position?
Some of the later ones had a very complex vacuum and ECU controlled device that often causes much head scratching.
Of course once you know there is a waxstat and it's failed you can adjust the position it's seized in to give either a high, low or midpoint idle.
Personally I do replace them so the car is spot on...but sometimes on older cars the waxstat will unscrew stripping out the alloy housing threads. If they undo one flat then feel stiff best to tighten back up and leave it.
MM
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MM:
Thanks for that info about the glow plug light. I presumed (logically??!) that the light indicated that the glow plugs were on, so when the light went out the plugs were off. My Polo D is now at 100k miles, and needs more than the couple of seconds on the glow plug light to start easily, but I have been turning off the key, then back on a second time. I'll now know just to wait. Presuming of course that Germans and French follow the same logic!
Thanks and happy new year.
Andy
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Right, I have been slaving away over a hot (or cold in this weather) bonnet and...
The air intakes were clear - even the pipes - and the air filter is clean and brand new :)
Holding the glow plugs on for an extra 4-5 seconds improves starting but not by a great deal...I am beginning to think that something is seriously wrong with it.
Do I carry on my investigations into what is not right or should I take it back under the warrenty and tell em its unacceptable?? Will they cover me for this even though I bought the car second hand ?
If it is something serious where is my next port of call to look - I could be wrong a long time ago my father had a Diesel 106 1.4 TUD which had premature bore wear - could that be a possiblity for my car??
Having only had petrol cars before this my head is scratching as to what may be wrong!!
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I forgot...
Looked at where the waxstat was in the haynes manual and mine works - when you get the beast started it is increasing the revs and slowly dropping them down - Ran the car outside for 15 minutes the idle speed definatly slows as the temperature guage goes up.
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Rob:
I'm no great legal or mechanical expert, but I may be able to help a little.
Warranty, returning to garage - You will probably know the answer to this question better then anyone else. What do you think the response of the garage will be? Are they a respectable main dealer with a good reputation to loose or a dodgy fly-by-night under the railway arches? Of course lots will also depend on the terms of the warranty, but I think you inferred earlier that there were few exclusions? Do you think from reading the warranty that the fault as described will be covered?
Another idea, which may help, or may tell you what you don't really want to know - I presume you have the details of the previous owner on the V5? I don't think there could be any harm in calling them and asking if they were aware of the fault and did they have any idea of the cause? When did it start etc.
Hope you get to the bottom of it soon
Andy
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