Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bloders

Hello All,

I think I kow what may be said here, though I would like some confirmation before I take any action.

I recently parked in a car park which serves several stores, including Dunelm. Parking there is "for customers only" and limited to two hours.

I parked up, popped across the road to the post office to collect a parcel and then went to Dunelm.... I didnt buy anything as I was browsing for curtains but havent got the authority to make such purchases without the "Senior Manager" with me...

When I returned, I have been issued with a parking fine. The reason is that "The driver was observed leaving site whilst the vehicle remained parked on the premises".

Where do I stand?

I am 50:50 on paying the £50 fine, which increases to £70 if not paid within 4 days or refusing on the basis that the sign does not say I must not leave the retail site?

I only just popped in the doors of Dunelm, though I assume they would have me on CCTV as proof i entered the store.

Thank you

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - RT

Personally, I wouldn't pay the parking charge under any circumstances - browsing counts as being a customer in my book - besides it's not a fine, it's a parking charge that can't be enforced - they can only sue you at civil court for their losses and since it's not a chargeable car park, there's no financial loss.

So, ignore.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bloders

I find it very difficult to ignore things.

My intention was to write to them explaining what id done and that I had no intention of paying and that they should bypass the waste of time letters and issue me with a court summons.

Also, I am not the registered keeper of the vehicle, though th registered keeper is more of a worryer than I, so I would like to use this act (that the driver inst the keeper) but get closure on the issue rather than by ignoring letters?

thanks

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Dwight Van Driver

Look at your ticket. Is it headed PARKING FINE NOTICE.?

No, then it is headed PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE and as such has statutory authority and should be paid.

If it is a PFN you can should you so desire pay it in the private contract between you and the land owners for use of the park. A CIVIL matter.

But if you so desire there is no need to pay and ticket can be binned. To get any payment, ticket issuer has to identify and take action against THE DRIVER who makes the contract when parking. The Reg Owner of the vehicle is under NO OBLIGATION to identify the driver. If binned one should ensure NO CORRESPONDENCE whatsoever is entered into, now or in answer to a number of letters of a bombastic nature that will follow. Ensure Reg Keeper is aware he has no obligation to ID Driver and should not respond to any letters received on this matter.

Read:

http://www.tinyyurl.com/2hr37d

http://www.tinyurl.com/lewaow

This 'loophole' will be closed when a Bill before Parliament is given assent later this year with power to chase these fines up like PCN..

dvd

Edited by Dwight Van Driver on 25/01/2012 at 14:26

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bloders

Thanks DVD

Its a Parking Charge Notice.

Ill see what the registered keeper wants me to do before anything else.

I was going to send a cheque for £2.00 which would be "Fair" compensation for the amount of time I parked there but wasnt in one of their stores.

thanks for the input.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - daveyjp

At some point the registered keeper will get a letter chasing the amount 'owed'.

The registered keeper should write to the scammers and deny the debt - no more detail requried.

End the letter stating any further correspondence chasing a non existent debt will be treated as harrassment.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bloders

At some point the registered keeper will get a letter chasing the amount 'owed'.

The registered keeper should write to the scammers and deny the debt - no more detail requried.

End the letter stating any further correspondence chasing a non existent debt will be treated as harrassment.

Should she deny the debt on any particular grounds?

thanks

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - RT

At some point the registered keeper will get a letter chasing the amount 'owed'.

The registered keeper should write to the scammers and deny the debt - no more detail requried.

End the letter stating any further correspondence chasing a non existent debt will be treated as harrassment.

Should she deny the debt on any particular grounds?

thanks

That she wasn't driving should be sufficient - unlike for criminal driving and parking offences, there's no requirement for the registered keeper to name the driver.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bloders

wrote and told them owner wasnt driving and she would not be prepared to name the driver.

They have written back saying they can take the owner to court to make her disclose the driver.

This is not true is it? If it is true, let them do it.

However, if it is not true, then surely that amounts to some form of bullying?

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Armitage Shanks {p}

It may well ahve been an error to write to them; they have no redress as a crime has not been committed, what has occurred is an breach of an "alleged" breach of a contrac and this is a civil matter.. If they take you to court, (unlikely) they can only be awarded compensation ofr any loss they may have suffered. Overstaying in a free for 2 hours car park isn't going to amount to much of a loss.

Informed comment here from www.clmlaw.co.uk

Private Parking Tickets

The first thing to do if you receive a parking ticket is to check whether it is a ticket issued by

a Public Authority or whether issued by, or on behalf of, a private firm or company.

If you have been issued with a parking ticket by, or on behalf of a private firm or company,

then, be aware that the issuing of such private parking tickets by private companies are

largely unregulated, and strictly speaking, such private companies can charge what they like.

That said, many such private firms or companies are members of the British Parking

Association, and if they are members, then the Association has its own Code of Practice

which currently sets a maximum charge.

The issuing of such parking tickets by private firms or companies (unlike parking tickets

issued by the police or local authorities) does not constitute a fine or criminal offence.

In such circumstances, the right to recover the amount specified in the private parking

ticket is based purely on contract law. Essentially, under contract law, private firms or

companies can claim for payment if you breach your contract with them eg where the

private firm or company allows you to park on their property, but where you have for

example overstayed.

However, the issuing of such private parking tickets can only be enforced under contract law

as you have not, in such circumstances, committed a criminal offence- it is purely a civil

contractual matter.

If you have been issued with such a private parking ticket,- then it can normally only be

enforced if, having ignored the ticket, the private company then send you an invoice demanding payment. If you then ignore the invoice, the private company can only proceed to

claim the sum by the issue of civil court proceedings, claiming breach of contract.

In such circumstances, the company has to decide whether it is worthwhile them issuing

court proceedings to recover the sum involved, which is very often not worth their while.

It should be noted that it is only the driver, and not the owner, who will be liable for the

privately issued parking ticket. The reason being that, under contract law, the contract is

formed between the driver (not the owner) and the private company concerned. Further, in

such a situation, there is no legal obligation on the owner to name or identify the driver.

Even if you are liable, you may still be able to challenge the amount levied under the private

parking ticket, in order to reduce the amount paid, on the basis that the amount is

disproportionately high, compared to any actual loss sustained, and thereby constitutes a "penalty"

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - tony g
Hi all ,I Was recently issued with a penalty parking notice by british rail .PPN.

Is this a civil matter or a fine as discussed in earlier posts .the notice lists details of the byelaw that the notice is issued under .

Tony g
Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - concrete

Hello Tony, the first point to check is the heading. Parking Charge Notice or Penalty Charge Notice. The former is a privately issued ticket attempting to extort money from you for a percieved breach of contract. The latter is issued by a Police or Public Authority under statute within the criminal code or bye law and generally must be paid, unless you appeal and the grounds are sufficient to be granted an exception. The latter is taken very seriously but the former, well you know what to do- NOTHING. In my experience the tickets issued by private companies are full of bull**it and made as replicas of official tickets in order to scare the recipient into paying up. If British Rail or Network rail or whoever owns the car park has employed a private contractor it does not meant the ticket is a scam, if the car park is covered by Local Authority bye laws or statue, so check the wording very carefully. If covered by statute or bye law I would expect the ticket to state clearly PENALTY Charge Notice and the contact details given to be an official address such as a police or council office within the area of the car park. It might be worth a telephone call to see who answers and what is said, but do not give any details of yourself. Let us know what happens. Good luck. Concrete

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - tony g
Hi concrete ,Thankyou for the info ,the ticket is headed as a penalty parking notice .it says that it was issued under the railway byelaws ,section 219 of the schedule 20 transport act 2000 .In the bottom right hand corner it says that they are a member of the British parking association .

I've done a little more research and it seems the best way to deal with it is just ignore it .

Apparently I'm not obliged to supply the name of the driver . From information on the forum ,link below ,none of these cases have ever made it as far as a magistrates court ,so I will wait and see what happens next .

Regards

forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=56412&pid=5...0
Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - concrete

Tony, sorry for the delay but I do work away quite a lot and then an Easter break in the Lakes, but here we are. Very interesting situation you are in. It always blurs the edges when a private company is hired to 'police' land which comes under some archaic bye-laws. I am not sure, like you, that these private companies have the power to issue statutory enforceable tickets. I always thought the ticket or penalty notice had to come from the statutory body to which it applies i.e Network Rail or the like. The ticket is issued as a simple and quick way to relieve you of some cash, if you fall for it. I admire your attitude of ignoring it to see what transpires. Keep in touch about it, I for one am very curious to know the outcome. Best of luck. Concrete

PS I think being a member of the BPA simply means they follow some sort of voluntary code and operate am appeals procedure. Doesn't say much else really.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Armitage Shanks {p}

Assuming you ignored the ticket when it was received, it's likely in most cases you won't have to pay the fee. After ignoring the ticket one of two things will then happen:

    www.moneysavingexpert.com/images/car.png);">
  • It doesn't invoice you

    In quite a number of cases they don't follow up or send you an invoice. In which case that's it, you've won and don't need to pay the ticket, simple as that.

  • It sends an invoice

    If you receive an invoice you will need to write back and dispute the ticket, yet importantly, in any correspondence...

    ... don’t state you’re 'appealing', merely that you're refusing to pay

    Effectively, a ticket from a private firm is an invoice as, in their words, by overstaying your welcome on their land you have agreed to pay a particular sum. By stating you are appealing, it gives unnecessary legitimacy to the ticket. Note - we've only used the word 'appeal' in this guide when quoting correspondence from private parking firms and landowners.

    From this point on we're in negotiation territory. There are no hard or fast rules, so effectively you need to make it realise you're going to be hard work and it's not going to get the money from you without the time and expense of court action. And just to put your mind at rest, as there's no credit involved, it can’t hit your credit rating either (unless in the extreme circumstance you ultimately refuse to pay a court order).

    A parking company has NO POWER to force you to pay an invoice unless it first chooses to take you to court, which is a hassle, and then it needs to win the case which is by no means certain.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - tony g
Thanks as ,clear and concise as ever ,

I've not heard from British rail ,the parking company as yet ,I'll let the forum know if I hear more .

Regards

Tony g
Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bromptonaut
Thanks as ,clear and concise as ever , I've not heard from British rail ,the parking company as yet ,I'll let the forum know if I hear more . Regards Tony g

Tony,

Who actually issued the ticket and where? You say 'British Rail' but that body effectively no longer exists.

Generally speaking if the station parking is operated by Network Rail then railway bylaws have effect and unpaid charges are a criminal (Mags Ct) matter. If the parking is operated by the Train Operating Co (eg Southern, London Midland or whatever) then they're in same position as supermarkets MSA etc - on a hiding to nothing unless thay can ID the driver. Once the Protection of Freedoms Act comes in however they can proceed against the keeper irrespective of who might have been in the driving seat.

The legislation you say is quoted on the ticket realtes to power of the former Strategic Rail Authority to make bylaws rather than any specific bylaw. If they persist in referring to bylaws I'd be asking them for chapter and verse specific toparking and the site where you were 'caught'.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - concrete

Well done Armitage Shanks, a nice clear statement of good sound advice. Interesting point regarding the use of the word 'appeal'. However, I wonder what the effect of Clause 56 in the new bill will be. Will we really get these 'charlies' from private parking companies chasing us around? Even if they are given the authority to pursue the registered keeper, if the keeper refuses to disclose or to pay, what then? Is it still a civil matter, in which case, game still on. Or will they also have the authority to take us to Magistrates Court? Any answers please. Concrete

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bromptonaut

Well done Armitage Shanks, a nice clear statement of good sound advice. Interesting point regarding the use of the word 'appeal'. However, I wonder what the effect of Clause 56 in the new bill will be.

The Protection of Freedoms Bill is on the last lap of Parliament and will presumably get Royal Assent well before the summer recess.

Clause 56 refers to Sch 4 where the meat can be found:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2010-2012/0128/lbill_2010-20120128_en_1.htm

Most of it is concerned with the detail of how notices etc are to be given. The BPA are understood to be working on an appeal system but not sure where they've got too.

I'd assume 'defaulters' can be chased through the County Court - certainly no criminal provisions to bring it within ambit of Mags.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 12/04/2012 at 11:46

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bromptonaut

Another thought on Clause/Section 56 and Sched 4.

Unlikley to come into effect immediately on Royal Assent. More likley to be 'commenced' by order in the Autumn. The Scedule requires to be supplemented by rules on certain matters, in particular the display of notices on sites.

Those rules are made by the 'Appropriate National Authority (ANA) – Sec of State for Transport in England & Ministers in Wales. Hopefully they will be the same rules either side of Offa's Dyke but not sure that can be guaranteed under the devolution settlement.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - concrete

Thanks Bromptonaut, very good information. I am still wondering about the enforcement side of the new act. If, as you suspect it is still a civil matter through the County Court, a lot of the existing defences still apply. i.e they take the keeper to Court, he denies any knowledge of the offence, balance of probabilities he may win. If he loses though, the 'fine' must be commensurate with the plaintiffs loses- a parking space for 20 minutes- therefore a 'fine' of £1.50p. It all seems a bit ludicrous. I still don't think this act is designed to protect anyones freedom except the money grubbing parking companies. Cheers Concrete

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Armitage Shanks {p}

I wonder what a court would assess the loss to a supermarket to be if one overstayed 30 minutes in a car park that wasn't full and was free for 2 hours?

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - Bromptonaut

Thanks Bromptonaut, very good information. I am still wondering about the enforcement side of the new act. If, as you suspect it is still a civil matter through the County Court, a lot of the existing defences still apply. i.e they take the keeper to Court, he denies any knowledge of the offence, balance of probabilities he may win. If he loses though, the 'fine' must be commensurate with the plaintiffs loses- a parking space for 20 minutes- therefore a 'fine' of £1.50p. It all seems a bit ludicrous. I still don't think this act is designed to protect anyones freedom except the money grubbing parking companies. Cheers Concrete

All the stuff about denying knowledge of the driver and damages commensurate with losses is swept away by by Schedule 4.

The sum recoverable is the charge of which notice was given at the site. It might still need to be reasonable in the sense of being proportionate to an LA issued PCN but certainly far more than £1.50 or whatever. The keeper is liable unless he/she 'fingers' another person as the driver.

Will be interesting to see how it all goes one legislation is effective. Expect a lot of bullying by burly 'bailiffs' trying to bluff recovery and more exposees on watchdog and suchlike.

Some test cases will going all the way to the Court of Appeal or even the Supreme Court.

Volvo - Parking fine from TPS - concrete

Thanks Bromptonaut, good information again. It really looks like the 'foxes are in charge of the henhouse'. We are DOOMED: DOOMED I tell you!!!! Now, where is that brochure on emigrating? Cheers Concrete