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I agree Tony G. idiots do buy emotionally.
I fondly recall the 70's when many people stopped buying unreliable British rubbish and bought reliable dull Japanese cars. dull the 120Y may have been but on a winters morning when you drive past your neighbour cranking over his Marina without starting....boy was it satisfying.
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tony g, 'Why else would you buy a BMW 318 rather than a skoda octavia.'
It's a better car, pretty well all round, albeit smaller inside.
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The 318 has a tiny cabin for its floorplan size-making it a 2+2 rather than a proper four seater. All other cars in this segment can sit four adults in comfort. It's rubbish in snow as well. You buy rear drive with your heart but buy front drive with your head. The 3 series is a nicer car than an Octavia, but it is not better.
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I agree Tony G. idiots do buy emotionally.
I fondly recall the 70's when many people stopped buying unreliable British rubbish and bought reliable dull Japanese cars. dull the 120Y may have been but on a winters morning when you drive past your neighbour cranking over his Marina without starting....boy was it satisfying.
Well... I can't say that the Marina was "emotionally" any more exciting than a 120Y!
But then there's nothing "exciting" about the vast majority of the identikit "charismatic" vehicles on the road today. The Megane for example is a flimsy and wallowy vehicle with limp, droning petrol engines and over-assisted steering. I can honestly say that our Mitsubishi Space Star (a box on wheels that was bought because it was cheap) offers far more feedback to the driver -- and it's hardly a thrill a minute.
I would have some sympathy with tony g's remarks if people actually did buy interesting vehicles -- but they don't in the main.
If you're going to buy a boring econobox, at least buy the one that works.
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'but it is not better'
IT IS BETTER. you only have drive to know and discover it's a 4 seater. NOT 2+2.
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it's a 4 seater. NOT 2+2.
A six foot man cannot sit behind himself with any degree of comfort commensurate with a luxury car. IThe BMW maybe the ultimate driving machine-but it's not the ultimate passnger machine-at least in one and three series offerings. Compare rear leg room with a Focus or a Golf. There's a heavy price to be paid for an engine bay that can accomadate a straight 6 and maintain equal weight distribution. That's why most other marques don't do it.
Don't get me wrong, the 3 series is a lovely car, but it ain't the most practical car in its class.
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Agree with these posts, there's nothing more satisfying that just opening the door and climbing in and the door shuts lightly like nearly all Japanese cars do, you turn the key, the car fires up, it doesn't cough or splutter, its never heard of breaking down, everything works and continues to do so, annual service dealer visit only and whilst there he doesn't bend you over.
If you service your own or the car is older, Japanese cars are normally simple to work on and everything comes undone as thought went into a practical vehicle for a long service life, not a fashion statement that only has to last till the second the warranty expires.
Boring?, hardly.
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gordonbennet. I don't find shutting a tinny Auris door satisfying.
unthrottled, 'but it ain't the most practical car in its class' That's true my friend.
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Agree with these posts, there's nothing more satisfying that just opening the door and climbing in and the door shuts lightly like nearly all Japanese cars do, you turn the key, the car fires up, it doesn't cough or splutter, its never heard of breaking down, everything works and continues to do so, annual service dealer visit only and whilst there he doesn't bend you over.
If you service your own or the car is older, Japanese cars are normally simple to work on and everything comes undone as thought went into a practical vehicle for a long service life, not a fashion statement that only has to last till the second the warranty expires.
Boring?, hardly.
+1
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(I agree Tony G. idiots do buy emotionally.)
Ethan ,asian saloons hatchbacks, where's the passion ,the involvement .The driveability
Do you only buy your clothes in grey .most modern Japanese cars are the equivalent .Functional but not involving.
which Japanese car can offer the feel and drive of a modern golf or polo ?
If asian cars are so good, why do they sell so few in the Uk .
I worked for lexus when they were introduced to the Uk in 89.
We believed that they would soon displace mercedes and BMW as the must have brand. It never happened ,why, because car buying is a largely emotional process.
Incidentally I came across very few idiots with £40k to spend.
Tony g
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(I agree Tony G. idiots do buy emotionally.) Ethan ,asian saloons hatchbacks, where's the passion ,the involvement .The driveability Do you only buy your clothes in grey .most modern Japanese cars are the equivalent .Functional but not involving. which Japanese car can offer the feel and drive of a modern golf or polo ? If asian cars are so good, why do they sell so few in the Uk . I worked for lexus when they were introduced to the Uk in 89. We believed that they would soon displace mercedes and BMW as the must have brand. It never happened ,why, because car buying is a largely emotional process. Incidentally I came across very few idiots with £40k to spend. Tony g
This is such a load of rubbish.
Feel in a Polo? Don't make me laugh. It's the motoring equivalent of beige.
Forget the premium German stuff for a second -- name me one thing about a typical French car, VW/Skoda/Seat, Fiat, Vauxhall or Ford that even remotely resembles "passion"! Most of them are horrible.
Dull and unreliable? No wonder Renault's sales figures have fallen by 60% in the last five years.
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'This is such a load of rubbish.'
tony g is correct. Lexus you never see. If people wanted them you'd see them but you don't, much like Infiniti, Renault, Saab, Subaru (bit of passion.................NOT much).
Horrible is too disparaging, disdainful,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yuk!
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Lexus doesn't work as a brand, in the UK or Europe, at least not in the way that Toyota wanted and not in the way it works very successfully in the USA.
You have to have some passion to buy/run a Subaru just to accept their lack of convention - now if they made more practical cars I'd go back to one.
Edited by RT on 03/01/2012 at 14:41
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'This is such a load of rubbish.'
tony g is correct. Lexus you never see. If people wanted them you'd see them but you don't, much like Infiniti, Renault, Saab, Subaru (bit of passion.................NOT much).
Horrible is too disparaging, disdainful,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yuk!
You will note that I didn't actually address his point about Lexuses.
Yes, if you pay a *lot* of money you'll get a car with some serious engineering. That is not in question.
It was his comment about a Polo, a *POLO* for Christ's sake, being in some way exciting that I was flagging.
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Primera driver.
(This is such a load of rubbish.)
I've worked in the car trade for thirty years ,does that qualify me to know what motivates a car buyer.?
Let me add that I'm not anti Asian ,I worked for both lexus and Toyota .
Im not biased against Asian Cars ,30 years ago they had something to offer ,reliability, certainly ,but the styling was better then .the corolla from 25 years ago was better looking than the current stodgy offering.The mk2 MR2 was a superb car, entirely an emotional purchase ?
Again I would say if Asian cars are such a good buy ,why dont they dominate the Market in the Uk.
Their dull cars for dull people.
Finally look at the year to date % sales figures for new cars.
Vw without Audi skoda etc ,sells more cars than any two Japanese manufacturers. So it's not just about price and logical decisions.
Volkswagen 9.22
BMW. 5.91
Mercedes. 4.21
Nissan 4.95
Toyota 3.72
Honda. 2.63
Hyundai 3.2
Tony g
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It is probably unjust to compare the year to date figures, as Japanese car production, and thus sales, was badly affected firstly by the earthquake in Japan and secondly by floods in Thailand, etc. For example Honda cut their UK production due to problems getting parts fron Japan.
Edited by Auristocrat on 03/01/2012 at 15:25
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I love this bizarre reverse-snobbery on here which means if you dont buy a Skoda Octavia you must therefore be a badge snob idiot.
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Autocar recently published sales market share figures comparing 2006 with 2011:
Alfa Romeo - 2006 0.22%, 2011 0.6%; Fiat - 2006 2.51%, 2011 2.23%; Chevrolet - 2006 0.61%, 2011 0.65%; Ford - 2006 14.69%, 2011 13.79%; Hyundai - 2006 1.52%, 2011 3.15%; Citroen - 2006 4.08%, 2011 3.54%; Nissan 2006 2.95%, 2011 4.97%; Kia - 2006 1.53%, 2011 2.8%; Renault - 2006 5.89%, 2011 3.51%; Skoda - 2006 1.65%, 2011 2.32%; Mazda - 2006 2.12%, 2011, 1.62%; Toyota - 2006 5.02%, 2011 3.74%; Mercedes 2006 3.46%, 2011 4.23%; Vauxhall - 2006 12.87%, 2011 12.02%; Peugeot - 2006 6.15%, 2011 4.96%; VW - 2006 8.1%, 2011 9.26%; Landrover - 2006 1.82%, 2011 1.91%; Volvo - 2006 1.3%, 2011 1.68%; BMW - 2006 4.93%, 2011 5.99%; Honda - 2006 4.17%, 2011 2.65%.
As mentioned previously Japanese production (both cars and car parts) were affected by the Tsunami, floods, etc - affecting car production elsewhere.
Toyota has recently said they will be increasing production by 20% in the next year. Honda is increasing production at Swindon from 100,000 to 180,000 in 2012 - with the addition of a new model (their Qashquai competitor) by adding another shift and 500 jobs.
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Auristocrat,
Natural distasters in Asia don't really account for the failure by Japanese manufacturers to make inroads into the Uk markets.
I know it's boring but the figures below show very little difference from 2011
They show % figures ytd for 2009 up to dec.
Honda 3.75
Toyota. 5.16
Hyundai 2.84
Nissan 3.9
Vw 8.08
Merc 3.62
BMW 4.95
I use these specific details to confirm that Uk car buying is not just about price.
Ford and vauxhall as a product would be more of a comparison,however
If you were to use ford vauxhall % Market share, the difference in sales would be really marked.The idea that the fleet discount Market accounts for the disparity doesn't really wash.Toyota and nissan have been trying to make
inroads into the fleet Market for years.
Tony g
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So you don't actually have an answer as to what makes a workaday Eurobox "passionate" then?
Which was the crux of my earlier post....
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The interesting thing is that the "passionate" buyer apparently buys German cars.....
Errr, I thought German cars were supposed to be "straight", and the French/Italians "charismatic" in this badge-obsessed fairyland?
I have never once, in all my years of asking, had a meaningful answer to this simple question regarding what makes an everyday European box any more interesting than a Japanese (or even Korean, frankly) one.
(I should probably point out that I currently own a "dynamic, excellent-to-drive, interesting" Ford Focus MK2 which is about as interesting as wallpaper paste, and a huge step backwards dynamically from the P11 Primera I had previously).
Edited by primeradriver on 03/01/2012 at 16:30
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Right,
First off I got a bit of a "thing" for Germanic engeering, and if their cars were/are as well built & durable as the wife..............................?
btw,She, the wife is more than reliable too.
Second, Iffen ( & I do) one wanted a decent diesel, it had to be European, Fiat, Renault, VW, or even a Mercedes.
All the Aisan stuff was petrol, petrol, petrol, petrol, or a second rate diesel.
Third, I rate potential reliability very highly, but it must be permed with driving position & room & comfort & safety & not least............................................ MPG's
Forth , hard harsh plastics are distinctly offputting, no matter how long they last, just a wee bit snobby in that respect. And leather on the twiddly bits is nice as well.
Fifth, Our diesel VW Galaxy was actually very reliable in all respects, the only glitch being a poor starter motor arrangment ( per local elect indie)
Sixth, The 3 series BMW is a mere "go-cart", not a proper 4 seater at all. I would not consider owt smaller than a 5 Series to be a proper Car.
I am in absolutly no way brand influenced, well I am influenced but not blindly or unknowingly.
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I am in absolutly no way brand influenced, well I am influenced but not blindly or unknowingly.
So what's your take on the all-new Asian-built diesel engines designed/developed in Germany?
The Hyundai/Kia R-series 2.2 and 2.0 diesels have been out since late 2009 - too new to assess long-term reliability but performing well so far.
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primeradriver, drive an Alfa and then drive a Toyota, if you haven't, well............
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Personally I can't figure out why some people are "passionate" about cars but they are, & each to their own.
What does amuse me though, is how some people seem to think their passion must be a bit daft by making up lots of other reasons as to their choice of brand - "reliability", "drives better", a "better car" etc.
The main reason people choose BMWs is because they want to own / drive / have parked outside their house a BMW, ditto Audis, VWs, Land Rovers, Mercedes, Alfas etc. There's nowt wrong with this so why do these people not simply say this?
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Primera driver,
German cars, straight,never heard one described as that,
Well engineered,solid build quality,involving to drive.heard all of those.
Still not heard the answer ,why don't Asian cars sell in greater numbers than more expensive premium cars from Germany. Perhaps the reason is the world is full of fools except me and thee.?
And then the p11 primera ,that's so much better than a focus.? It's genetically a bluebird,the equivalent of a sleeping tablet in motoring terms.
Primera, much loved by private hire drivers ,second hand it was cheap,had lots of room,it didn't matter it drove like a barge ,had a crude noisy engine and transmission.it kept going.
Primera,ideal for a man who given a free choice would prefer a timex to a rolex.
Tony g
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Hi Tony, You've already answered your question
why don't Asian cars sell in greater numbers than more expensive premium cars from Germany
quite correctly as you know
because car buying is a largely emotional process
As regards the Primera I would suggest that "ideal for the man who simply wants to buy a watch rather than a statement which keeps good time", is perhaps a little more accurate?
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Bonzo,
Agree entirely .
Tony g
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When it was introduced in 1996, the P11 Primera offered multi link front and rear suspension - unique in its class. With the P11, Nissan undertook to win the British Toring Car Championship within three years - and succeeded by taking both the manufacturers and team titles in 1998. An independent team, with factory backing, also took the BTCC Independent Cup in both 1999 and 2000.
I had a new Primera SX - introduced to celebrate the 1998 BTCC victories, and it was an absolute peach in terms of handling, etc, and coupled with 100% reliability. Genetically the Primera had more in common with the Nissan Auster/Stanza - rather than the Bluebird.
Whereas, I suppose the Focus traces it's genetic lineage back to something like the Anglia, Popular and Prefect. Or should it be to the original Ford Escort - a version of the Ford Thames van with side windows and rear seats?
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When it was introduced in 1996, the P11 Primera offered multi link front and rear suspension - unique in its class.
You may have read too much from Nissan PR handouts - the 1995 Opel/Vauxhall Vectra-B had multi-link suspension all round - so the Primera was hardly unique - of course the Ford Sierra had independent suspension all round from 1982.
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Info re suspension taken fro Wiipedia
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Primera driver, German cars, straight,never heard one described as that, Well engineered,solid build quality,involving to drive.heard all of those. Still not heard the answer ,why don't Asian cars sell in greater numbers than more expensive premium cars from Germany. Perhaps the reason is the world is full of fools except me and thee.? And then the p11 primera ,that's so much better than a focus.? It's genetically a bluebird,the equivalent of a sleeping tablet in motoring terms. Primera, much loved by private hire drivers ,second hand it was cheap,had lots of room,it didn't matter it drove like a barge ,had a crude noisy engine and transmission.it kept going. Primera,ideal for a man who given a free choice would prefer a timex to a rolex. Tony g
You are continually falling into the trap of comparing workaday Japanese cars to premium German ones.
There is nothing particularly well engineered about the likes of the Golf, Polo or Passat. Nothing particularly involving about them either.
And Primera genetically a Bluebird? This tells me all I need to know. You might as well say that the Focus is genetically an Escort (now *there* was a dull car!).
The Primera wasn't bought for involvement. But it *is* a better car to drive than the MK2 Focus which is, frankly, offensively boring to drive. It's also significantly better to drive than the contemporary late-1990s VW Passat which was tedious to the point of inducing sleep.
I get it -- you're a BMW salesman.
As for the comment about Alfas vs Toyotas -- I get Alfas. You could say the same re Alfa vs VW, although it must be said that the latest Alfas are pretty and that's it.
Still no comment about what exactly makes a cheap Eurobox so involving I notice.
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Having bought new cars at full fleet discount myself (e.g 17.5% off, plus a further 4%, plus free metallic paint, plus three years fleet breakdown cover), I am aware that price is only one factor in buying a car.
The example I picked up on (where another poster said that the Avensis was more expensive than the Vectra), I added to by saying that the Vectra suffers from oversupply (caused by heavy discounting and large numbers being sold to fleets). The Avensis doesn't suffer to the same extent (partly because it hasn't been sold in the same numbers to fleets and has not been as heavily discounted to acheive fleet sales), and tends to be more expensive as a used buy. Supply and demand - Vectras are plentiful on the used car market as shedloads have been sold to fleets, and they don't command high prices as a result of oversupply.
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which Japanese car can offer the feel and drive of a modern golf or polo ?
If asian cars are so good, why do they sell so few in the Uk . I worked for lexus when they were introduced to the Uk in 89. We believed that they would soon displace mercedes and BMW as the must have brand. It never happened ,why, because car buying is a largely emotional process. Incidentally I came across very few idiots with £40k to spend. Tony g
I think one of the reasons that they don't sell many here is that they are out of touch with peoples wants. I love Japanese cars for their toughness and reliability but they rarely get the package right, at least in the larger car sectors as GB hints at.
Honda Accord - Reliable as a swiss watch but only made as a saloon or a huge ungainly estate (2003-08). New Honda Accord very pricy. I would like an Accord hatchback, but no joy.
Honda Civic - Nice big hatchback but bad ride quality. I would like a Civic estate. No joy.
Toyota Auris - Hit with an ugly stick, and doesn't have the reliablity of the Corolla.
New Toyota Avensis - only made as saloon or estate.
Kia, Hyundai - supremely reliable but the interior materials may put people off.
Lexus - No practical hatchbacks and only one diesel that is ridiculously overgeared in the earlier models.
As for being fun to drive, you have great choices in the form of Subaru Impreza's, Mitsubishis Evo's and the like but they are pretty expensive to run.
I have a Japanese car myself and it doesn't put a foot wrong mechanically or electrically, but on a summers morning, I look at it and wish I had something more exciting to drive.
Many of the European offerings offer a more exciting drive in the more 'middle of the road' affordable sector, cars from the VAG stable, BMW, Alfa Romeo and Ford. But they don't always combine that with reliability or build quality. OK for people with dealer warranty remaining but I can only afford cars that are a bit older.
This thread just highlights that one persons priorities in a car are different to someone elses. No wrong choice.
In the end you don't get the perfect car otherwise people wouldn't keep changing.
Edited by corax on 03/01/2012 at 18:43
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So am i a tool because i didnt buy a dull boring Japanese car?
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So am i a tool because i didnt buy a dull boring Japanese car?
well yes, but we did not like to tell you :-)
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So am i a tool because i didnt buy a dull boring Japanese car?
well yes, but we did not like to tell you :-)
*Laughs head off*
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I am not an emotional buyer - I am cured - but I still have emotions. I have bought several Euro cars, some of them new, and I have been horribly let down. Another reason I have drifted away from Euro cars is from having spent 25 years down-under where predominently cars are Asian, and it opened my eyes to just how really good they were. My first was a beat-up Datsun 120Y station wagon, which did over 250,000 miles and never let me down. From there I was hooked on Japanese cars, and then to any Asian car. I can honestly say I never broke down with an Asian car, and nor did I have niggly faults.
Down-under where distances are huge, pragmatism takes over from ego very quickly. I rarely saw a Jeep or Land Rover away from the cities - just too unpredictable. "Image" down-under is the image of being busted down a very long way from home. The UK car market is obviously different but I have had my persepctive altered and recognise that Asian cars do have lower probability of failiure to Euro cars. It is a fact.
Living back in UK now, the emotions that people invest in buying a car does puzzle me a lot. Surely a reliable vehicle is better to own than one less reliable? But I suppose that is the essence of emotion buying - it is like having faith I suppose.
However it is actually possible to satisfy the emotional side of the car image with an Asian car. It is a question of opening up to the possibiity - just take a look at the new Toyota GT86. OK that is an extreme example, but please don't tell me that the Asians don't make some awesomely handsome and inspiring cars, because they do. They really do.
As for my Sirion 1.5SX, I invite you to take a close look one day. It is a very, very quick and exciting car to drive and it has all the bells and whistles. Personally I like the look too. This car is also light years ahead of what Skoda/Seat/VW are about to offer with their impoverished Citigo/Mii/Up hatchback. Personally I don't want to see paint on the inside of my door panels, which is what you get with the new offering - I last saw that on my Ford Anglia in 1972. Just take a look at the back seat to on the new Citigo/Mii/Up - my Sirion is luxurious compared to that.
Beauty is only skin deep. And the ugliness of an unreliable car goes right to the bone.
Regards.
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Down-under where distances are huge, pragmatism takes over from ego very quickly. I rarely saw a Jeep or Land Rover away from the cities - just too unpredictable. "Image" down-under is the image of being busted down a very long way from home. The UK car market is obviously different but I have had my persepctive altered and recognise that Asian cars do have lower probability of failiure to Euro cars. It is a fact.
Very true sirionman. An Australian workmate of mine will say the same. He has a Ford Mondeo as a family wagon but uses a battered Nissan Micra for work. 170000 miles and still going. No faults, just regular oil changes. It's become an experiment now as to how long it will go before it croaks :)
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