Jeeker Hi Jamie, I's is stalking you, or so it could appear.

The reason some wealthy folk drive a rubbish rough car is they have nowt to prove & know it,....................... unlike some of the "neavou riche" (phonetic spelling only) who feel the need to impress........................whether they can afford it or not.

PS

Some of the land wealthy are cash poor btw.

Just been looking into the details of a 3.0litre S Type for sale near me, Road Tax band M, £460! Go to hell! Jesus christ! Streuth!

What about Overfinch? <braces for storm of invective>

I have a 13 year old 3 litre auto Jag S Type that i've owned for 10 years.

Don't listen to cobblers from people that don't know what they're talking about, do some proper research. HJ's car faults section is usually spot on IMO.

Early S Types did have some faults..but..they weren't major and they weren't plentiful. They'll all have had them sorted by now anyway (plastic header tanks could split/door locks could seize/coils could fail/ball joints/ V8's had Nikasil bore problems...other than that, not a great deal.

Early S Types shared their under pinnings with a Lincoln. If you get one older than 2001, it'll be £185 per year road tax.

We also have a 6 year old X Type (estate), which we've had virtually from new. They are not and never have been a Mondeo in disguise, not that a Mondeo is a bad car anyway. The X TYpe shared about 18% of the parts of a Mondeo (engine is an obvious one). They too have had niggly faults, but not major ones, although I think i'd be wary of very early 4x4 systems.

There are plenty of Jag specialists out there..if you want one get one..they're good looking cars...and are a bit different from the norm.

In answer to Jamie's question, I'd really like a 530d tourer 6 sp manual. About 2006 vintage. I don't care if they're as common as muck-the manuals aren't. In my mind, they have the best blend of performance, cargo capacity, refinement and looks. I'm not tempted to buy something 'just to be different' lest I find out why everyone else avoided it!

I think the E60 looks better than its replacement-but it would have to be the wagon with the rails (even if I never used 'em). Were you looking at bimmers and then suddenly saw a Mazda and was smitten?? I think the 3.0l diesel sounds like the old straight 6 petrol. The new petrols are just too smooth sounding. A bit like...a Jazz?

Agree the Mazda 6 looks fabulous.

:-))

I have looked at a couple of X Types, they're very nice and i never felt they were Mondeo's in drag but theres nothing wrong with taking some of the Mondeo (a fine car itself) best bits and putting them into something else is there?

No. I've never understood the sniping about it.

No one says an Audi A4 is really a Skoda or a Bentley is only an Audi etc, etc. Most manufacturers share parts nowadays.

A relative of my wife did it to her when we bought her the X Type...his angle was a put down, put you in your place type thing, maybe it's jealousy. Truly can't work it out. I don't think we've ever been 'nose in the air types' (and have absolutely no reason to be if we were)...but do like things that are 'nice'.

The thing is, I don't see a Jag X Type as being 'better' than say an Audi A4, just different and with British heritage. Maybe some people see Jaguar as being a really premium marque and it is the jealously angle...so knock the X Type to try to tip it off its' non existent perch...in the same way that conversely, some people still think Skodas are 'bad', when they are quite clearly not to those in the know.

Puzzling.

only 18 % of the X-type's components were shared, I didn't know that proportion was so low.

Neither do wikipedia which is why that particular claim has a [citation needed] next to it. What follows is a peculiar, defensive justification about the need for platform sharing and how every one does it so it's not a big deal. It does seem to be a big deal to Jag fans who are desperate to avoid the M connotation! But the engine, the gear box, suspension are all pure blue oval. ie most of the critical parts that actually do stuff. Really what's left for Jaguar to do is window dressing. If you like leather and walnut, they're a good buy. But British heritage? Nah.

Edited by unthrottled on 02/07/2011 at 21:41

Yes, it's a well screwed together car and if an X-type estate landed on my drive, I wouldn't be at all upset. But, personally, I'd rather have a Mondeo sitting on the drive.

It's built in Britain.

Jingoism doesn't do it for me. The Avensis is built in Britain. So is the mini. Doesn't sway me towards buying either.

Why did Jag need saving? Because their stuff wasn't very good. They only really built one good engine, and their last good car was the XJ6 series II. From then on they rested on their laurels, typical British story of lazy engineering and shabby build quality. Not a heritage I'm overly keen to remember.

Bentley are another Great British shambles . They had to get someone else to bring their 50 year old 6.75 litre up to standard. What had they being doing for the last 50 years?? GM didn't need outside help to build a world class pushrod V8-and their stuff is a lot cheaper than Bentley. No one is interested in leather and walnut-it's...fusty and a bit naff!

No doubt people will be decrying the 'loss' of Bristol. But there comes a point when customers start noticing that the engine in the Bristol is avbailable as an option on a $30,000 Chrysler 300-and feel cheated. Rebadging other people's parts verbatim is basically plagarism.

@ unthrottled I dont get what you're saying, one minute you say its wrong that Jaguar used Ford parts and the next minute you say the reason they had to do so is because Jaguar parts were rubbish, which is it? You cant agree with both sides. They either had to get parts from elsewhere because their own were rubbish or they didnt, which is it?

I agree Jaguar had problems and very nearly went out of business, and but for Ford's purchase they wouldve done. The X Type actually shared around 20% of the Mondeo's parts and yes you're right it was mostly the very important parts, engine, gearbox, suspension etc but as you said earlier, Jaguar's engines were woefully out of date, you said yourself they only built one good engine and mechnically they were far from sound, so surely taking the Mondeo's underpinning and mechanics, very sound parts from a very good car and putting them into the Jag would be a good thing? No? Again im struggling to see whats so wrong with taking the Mondeo's best bits to fix the Jaguar's worst bits. Sounds like a perfect merger to me. Reliability has improved vastly due to the very good Mondeo parts and Jaguar's are now accessible and affordable by a wider group of people than in days gone by, to me that spells success.

They left Jaguar to do the rest of the car and the rest of the car is a big reason of why people bought Jags back in the day, big, comfortable, leather, walnut, shut off from the outside world etc, the reason people stopped buying those lovely cars was because what was underneath was useless, so they went and got good oily bits and kept the good bits, great car! Its a shame it didnt happen sooner. If it wasnt for that merger Jaguar wouldve gone the same way as Jensen and Hillman and we wouldnt have the multi award winning class leading XF that we do today, there would be no Jaguar. Although in my view Jaguar died when it stopped using round headlights, the XF is a magnificent car and i cant find a reason why anybody shouldnt buy one but it doesnt look like a Jaguar to me.

Im not going to sit here and say i'll buy it for the British name, or even for the fact its screwed together here, because i dont care about that to be quite honest, im not going to claim its an entirely British car because it isnt and even if it was i dont view that as a selling point. I'd tell somebody to buy one because its a lovely, well made, well put together car, which uses tried and tested mechanicals with a nice bit of Jaguar-ness thrown on top. Scoff all you like, if you'd rather have a Mondeo thats up to you, but if you think buying a Mondeo means you've got a cut price Jaguar you are mistaken. And im not knocking the Mondeo, i like it, its a good car, fine car to own i'd never tell anybody to not buy one, but i wouldnt insist on having one just because a Jaguar happens to share the same engine. Land Rover Discovery shares some of those engines too should Disco owners switch to a Mondeo as its basically the same thing?

Your comment about GM is an interesting one as they are a prime example of badge engineering shysters. You bang on about the X Type on the Mondeo platform but you sit in the Jag and you wont see a single Ford piece, however take the Cadillac BLS for example, most of the car is Saab stuff, the same Saab which has now gone out of business. Trying to pass off a Daewoo Matiz as a Chevrolet is the sort of thing which fooled nobody and GM have badge engineered so much they've dropped several names because they were all virtually the same car. GM is an example of getting this sort of thing wrong, Jaguar/Ford is an example of getting it right. If Ford came along and got a Mk3 Mondeo LX and wrote Jaguar on it, they'd have been laughed at, the sort of thing GM have done with the Chevrolet/Daewoo thing. So theres clearly a difference. You cant b**** about Jaguar/Ford to then credit GM when they "plaguerise" parts across marques more than anybody else, although its hardly stealing when you own the company is it. The fact is its cheaper to develop one engine which works and use it across marques than to develop seperate ones for each car.

I'd like to know what you drive because aside from Ford, Merc and BMW i cant think of many manufacturers who make all their own components from scratch, the VW Passat is essentially a Skoda Octavia with a nice name on it for more money (or a Skoda is a VW Passat for bargain money, depending on which way you look at it) you mention Bentley in there, they are virtually VW's, does that mean i wouldnt have a Continental GT if it was offered? Absolutely not, VW make good stuff, again, i dont see whats wrong with making a car out of good components. I dont care who makes the bits so long as they're well made. Volkswagen chop, change and share various components, engines and platforms across several different car companies (Bentley, Audi, Seat etc) more than anybody else in Europe, does that mean these cars are bad cars? No of course not. But at the end of the day, i'll probably be buying one of these Jaguar's at some point, probably an S Type, do i care that its built on an old Lincoln platform? No. Do i care its engines are basically Ford Duratec's deep down? No. Am i buying it because its supposedly British? No.

Am i buying it because its a nice well made car that most importantly isnt a BMW? Yes.

Edited by jamie745 on 03/07/2011 at 03:30

Unthrottled, I can't see any grace in a Mondeo tit or any other spec of Mondeo. Ford doesn't do grace. Mondeo has more space than Jags of old. Jags never were particularly spacious unless lwb.

Skoda used to be a standalone company making pretty dreadful communistical drivel and now basically exist as just a name for VW to sell off cheap stuff with virtually nothing being "proper Skoda" in it yet i dont see you sat here saying nobody should buy an Octavia. A Mondeo Titanium is a nice car but it does not have the grace of a Jaguar, im sorry but a Mondeo is a decent plodding annonymous car, the mk2 and mk3 were very good cars, fine cars in their own right, the new one is dissapointing and indeed the new ones are pretty dreadful when it comes to interiors, with nasty firm cloth seats, cheap plastic and ordinary engines, the Jaguar's have nice interiors, slightly upgraded Ford engines and are just a nice car to be in and to drive. There are many things a Mondeo is, but graceful luxury car is not one of them.

GM may have made their own stuff in house, but thats easy to do when you've got as much to work with as they have although their stone age approach to car building shouldve been killed by the 70s oil crisis and its a shame it wasnt. And despite making all their own stuff in house, very little of it is actually any good, which proves that it means nothing. If you can get a superior part from elsewhere, why would you pass that up and favour using your own inferior parts instead? Makes no sense. Again,one minute you praise the Mondeo but then slate Jaguar for using Mondeo parts, which i just cant get my head round, whats wrong with using tried and trusted pieces? What did you expect Ford to do? Throw more endless money at a failing marque to let Jaguar make their own stuff from scratch? Or put already established proven mechanicals into a Jaguar body and sell that?

Where do i place the emphasis? Well i view air conditioning as very useful, electric gadgets as handy and walnut trim as nice looking (beats General Motors Vauxhall horrible plastic, even if they did make it themselves). Im assuming you drive a 1968 Ford Cortina then with no electrics on it to go wrong? I think if you've got gadgets on your car then f***ING USE THEM!! Its what it was made for and its what its for, Air Con isnt a waste of power, the power was put there for a reason, if you're not going to use it what are you going to do with it? Take it out for dinner? Deary me.

The only thing which does annoy me is your comment about Seat being allowed to only be nearly as good as an Audi etc. That would be one thing which frustrates me because that means a Seat is a car purposely made to not be as good as it could be. Like the Porsche Boxster is engineered to purposely be inferior to a 911. In cases like that names like Seat should be dropped.

Would i buy the Jag for its British racing heritage? No. I do like Jags and always have done, as i noted above i had die cast models of the old XJ's and always dreamed of a nice big Jag full of leather and toys powered by a big engine, if using Ford parts makes that happen then so be it, at least it'll work and not break down in a cloud of smoke.

Edited by jamie745 on 03/07/2011 at 15:31

A Mondeo titanium offers all the grace, space, and pace of the Jaguar saloons of old.

The interior of a Mondeo is a sea of plastic compared to the interior of a Jaguar. I'm not willing to do Mondeo's down completely, because I happen to think they're good cars for what they do...but they are no equivalent to the premium end of the market.

I see air conditioning as a waste of crankshaft power,

...and I wouldn't have a car without climate...Try selling a modern car to anyone if it hasn't got air con in it.

Just so long as aspirations of British racing heritage sentimentality is left in the past!

Why? I like the fact that a British company whose products i've bought has such good heritage..and some of the future stuff they're planning.. e.g. the recent supercar they've shown produced as a prototype ..or even Paul Gentilozzi's little trip across some salt flats in an XF.

I traded cars for a living for quite some time and i can assure you the vast majority of drivers want as much for their money as possible. Selling a car with climate control and goodies is easier than selling one without, trying to sell a car to the average customer by saying "well it helps the crankshaft retain its power" and you'll be met with a "ppfffttttt"

The average customer is also more common, plentiful and has money, which for a car trader is more important than your jumped up, elitist, snobbish greenpeace view of why technology is bad, useless, wrong or pointless. Things like alloys, sat navs and air con sell cars, if you dont like it then dont buy it, but the majority will. In places like Florida and the southern United States nobody would buy a car or a house, or go to work in a place which does not have Air conditioning, fact. Also some people require it on health grounds, my mother for instance due to her illness and medication really struggles in heat and air con is essential, 99% of people find air con to make hot days more comfortable, if you're in the 1% who wants to boil thats up to you, but dont go telling the rest of us we're idiots for buying it.

On the subject of alloys, most people dont realise steel is an alloy in itself but i like the look of alloys but would also say in my experience cars with alloys have been more prone to slow punctures after going over an awkward bump than a normal one, but hey ho. Those flappy paddle attached to automatics are useful for people who only have an automatic licences but want a smoother drive in slower conditions as alot of auto's can be very awkward at slower speeds with their constant lumping, granted thats not why they get bought but there is always someone who will find these things useful. I buy black appliances for my kitchen to match the decor which has alot of beech woood etc when i couldve got white for £50 less, do i think black makes it work better? No. But was it worth the extra? Yes, to me it was.

And by extraneous rubbish i take it you mean all the buttons and gadgets in your favoured Mondeo Titanium then? What you call rubbish, most people call features.

Tell me, what do you drive? Im guessing 68 Cortina GL, or a Morgan made out of wood? shopping trolley with a mule on the front? tell me im curious.

Edited by jamie745 on 03/07/2011 at 18:13

I do agree with cheap, hard plastics feel nasty and should be avoided. But the trouble is, that in order to get nice soft touch plastics one has to endure the baggage of other extraneous rubbish.

Blimey...i'm beginning to agree with you now....but only to a degree.

I like climate control, because year round, it stays the same temperature, i never have to fiddle with it..and more importantly never have to get it wrong and keep twiddling and never get it quite right again. It's there doing its' stuff day in day out.

Same with the electric memory seats...always in the exact same position.

I didn't think i'd ever want parking sensors..but...they came with madame's car...and i've got used to them, I like the fact that I can never get it wrong with them..and..you can get quite close to something behind.

Now the bit I agree with you is:

- rain sensitive wipers...Christ they're irritating. They never seem to work when I need them. What's wrong with a variable intermittent.

-Keyless locking or whatever its called. Haven't got it, but that would be a 100% no-no for me, i'd be always worried it hadn't locked, in which case presumably you'd have to leave your key somewhwre, then walk back without it, to check.

- Voice activated stuff. Got that on my car. Total waste of time.

It was bound to happen westpig-the most vociferous of arguments usually lie in the smallest of details.

My problem with remote locking is that (on my car at least) the car will refuse to start if you unlock the car without using the infra red key. When the battery in the key dies, the key becomes useless. They also tend to be bulky. They are expensive to replace. I keep my keys in my pocket and something the size of a pack of 20 is irritating.

A full climate control system is bulky and complex. The compressor and heat exhanger take up space-resulting in tight engine bays and bulky dashboards and centre consoles. There's not a huge amount to miss about 60s cars-except the nice simple dash (walnut-westpig!) that doesn't intrude into the cabin space.

They are also completely useless to me since I like to smoke in the car and the driver's window is permanently wound down even in winter.

I want a nice simple car fashioned from well-fitting, quality materials. To me that gives a much nicer driving experience.

I drive an old wreck that shall remain anonymous, Avant-when my fiscal situation recovers a Z3 sounds would be pretty close to perfection!

BTW why can't I have a Jag with cloth upholstery? Nothing worse than sitting on leather on a freezing/hot day, especially on a hot day if aircon malfunctions.

I don't believe you have a handbag Bobbin...

...a tool belt, yes!

I've never smoked in someone else's car-and don't understand why people feel the need to put no smoking signs on the dashboard of a privately owned car. Eating in a car is a far more revolting habit since crumbs can grow mould whereas ash is inert.

Bag in passenger footwell with handle round the gear lever-bag stays upright, and the tape measure and claw hammer won't fall out. :)

My Mulberry would never be stowed any other way.

My dad used to drive trucks without power steering-the engine alone weighed about twice as much as a Ford Cortina-any able bodied person should be able to spin the wheel of a passenger car without assistance. Heavy steering is a good reminder that going from lock to lock while the wheels are stationary scrubs the tyres and is hard on the steering rack.

I'm not advocating unheated rear windows or a return to dynamos. I'm saying that I have no desire to have ABS, ESP etc inflicted upon me because some people can't handle a car properly. I accept that engines have to become more complex in order to meet emissions regulations that are orders of magnitude lower than yesteryear. But at least he cabin can be kept quite bare.

I'm not alone in this. The Maxda MX5 is widely acclaimed for it's simplicity and lack of fuss. It is what 60s car designers had in mind but maufacturing practice of the time couldn't deliver. I practice what I preach. My car has a cable operated clutch (heavy), cable operated throttle (you set the gas before you let the clutch out or you stall) and I like it that way. The 8" centre console LCD screen common in modern cars really strikes me as rather tacky. The lifeless over-assisted steering and brakes really don't make a car nicer to drive. Cruise control is slovenly an encourages drivers to become inattentive. I want to drive-not become a steering wheel attendant. Quality doesn't require gimmicks to stand out. Actually gimmicks a usually a substitute for quality.

Good sound system is a must-can't be having the dulcet tones of Jum Naughtie's coughing fit being distorted by lousy speakers!

Today presenter-about as far removed from Judas Priest as you can get!

"My car hasn't got a screen or heated seats...."

I'm not a great one for heated seats, but if my car didn't have a windscreen I might be glad of them!

Providing there isn't a crack greater than 0.4" in the driver's direct field of view of the no screen, I imagine it is fine.

I might concede that the heated seats could be a good idea in a diesel! [shock]

Seat warmers are useful in winter. Don't want to tap off any coolant heat until the engine warms up-she needs to warm up more than you do!

Another old luxo barge? Where do you find space for all these wrecks? ;-)

But you were so thrilled with the 406! I wouldn't expect a jag to be more reliable than a pug. Did taxi drivers nail their colours to the S type? nope.

Ah, you see Mercs are built to cope withthe rigours of the unwashed masses. ;-)

...or maybe they are just built for the unwashed masses. Who knows?

3.0litre V6, around 240bhp (i'd like to put it on a rolling road to actually measure it at some point) and lots of buttons to push inside the car! Oh yes! Buttons! i know how much you hate them.

SE or Sport? Any extras? Manual or auto?

I think you'll find that the comfort is a pleasant surprise, albeit it still has reasonable handling. Boot space is a bit shallow, but goes back a fair bit to the back of the seats. Not the slightest hint of rust on mine, despite being 13 years old. Good quality stereo, leather everywhere, nice bit of wood. Bullet proof engine, very smooth gearbox.

A comfortable, quick, individual looking, quality, smooth driving car...Hope you enjoy it. The only downside in this modern age is the fuel consumption..but even that isn't hideous for a large car and a V6 petrol motor.

I pick it up tomorrow and loooking forward to it.

Nice. Dark colours and light coloured leather work well (our X Type is dark blue with beige leather).

Do post a first impressions thread.

Seat warmers is one thing even ive struggled to ever find a use for. They're nice, but i never get in the car and go "ooo i really need a hot seat!"

It can't do much for your fertility either. A bit like those exhausts that run under a motorbike seat.

:)

Probably that pillow talk about kinetic energy and power outputs. Just doesnt do it for everyone.

Pixos look cheap and nasty for me. I'd go for a pre-owned Honda Jazz instead, every time.

the Nissan reliability will help.

It might if it were a Nissan-It's a badge engineered Suzuki. Not that Suzuki are unreliable, but you have to question nissan's competence if they resort to selling other people's stuff. Usually the first sign of a company in terminal decline.