Hello. I am new to the forum but I have been an avid follower this site for a few months now. I have searched the site but I can?t find anything previously on my question topic.
What is the law regarding traffic censuses (cencii?)?
On my way to work this morning I was held up as a traffic Policeman directed random cars into a cordoned off lane of the (40mph) dual carriageway so that a pair idiots with clipboards could ask the drivers where they were going. I didn?t get stopped myself but I know what they were asking as my brother got stopped at the same place last week.
What really annoyed me was the reduction from two lanes to one in order facilitate the census. This caused a traffic jam to back up to, and snarl up, a roundabout which connects three main roads and a High Street. Just what everyone needs at rush hour on their way to work!
I guess I have to follow the policeman?s directions but do I have to give time of day to the transport people? Can I tell them to stop wasting my time and be on my miserable way? Surely with all the Big Brother cameras bolted to every bridge and sign post is it beyond the wit of the transport planners to pick cars at random and follow them on their TV screens?
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SHMBO used to be one of those idiots.
The information is actually used to improve road planning (for a change), for example to find out what routes people are using at particular times of day, whether traffic is local or long distance and e.g. if people are not going where they think they are because the road signs are inadequate or misleading.
It's not the sort of info you can glean from cameras.
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Odd - there were a couple of censuses around here recently and the results appear to have been changes in traffic light priorities which have caused more congestion! In fact, Stockport MBC appear to have a policy of changing light priorities to reduce traffic flow through lights to the minimum possible...
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Well, I suppose it's up to the local authority to use or misuse the information as they see fit!
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I'll get me coat!
Sorry Brian, I didn't mean to be rude but it rather incensed me with all the disruption it caused. As a pedestrian I don't stop for people with clipboards in the High Street when shopping so I don't see why I should be inconvenienced when driving to work either, thats all.
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I've been stopped four times in the last six weeks, at two different locations on the same road. It did occur to me to be a bit mischevous and refuse to tell them where I was going, but they were very polite even when it was cold and tipping it down so I complied.
I did wonder what the legal position was. Could you be compelled to answer, as on the national census?
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I recall a similar question on another forum where I think the conclusion was that obviously to ignore instructions from a uniformed police officer would be an offence, but there was no legal requirement for you to repond to the census.
This may of course be wrong.
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From my very limited understanding of the law I thought that the Police could only stop you if you were driving dangerously, they suspected you of an offence or if there was a defect with car. Like I say, I wouldn't allow myself to be treated like this as a pedestrian. They were still there nine hours later as I drove home this evening with the police car lights still flashing. I hope his car started ok. I could almost start another thread on police resources but that has been done to death numerous threads elsewhere I think.
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There must be a polce officer there to tell you to stop, as the census staff are civilians and have no power to stop you.
IIRC you are not obliged to answer the questions and, of course, there is probably no way to check whether the answers you give are the truth.
However there would seem to be little point in refusing or lying.
When things get busy you often get handed a short questionaire to complete and post back (reply-paid) so that the traffic is NOT held up for too long.
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They pulled cars into the(cordoned off) outside lane two at a time. If I had been the lead car I could have driven off no problem and possibly saved myself 5 minutes. If I had been the second car I may have been hemmed in by the lead car so I guess I would be cutting off my nose to spite face if I didn't talk them. People can lose a lot a money being late into work, although I hasten to add I am not one of them. I rolled in a little before 10am.
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I was pulled in by one of these a few months back. A young lad with a clipboard started asking me what the purpose of my journey was, which I answered. He then asked me what my actual home address was. I felt a bit wary of giving my address out to a total stranger, so I asked him why he wanted it. He wouldn't tell me, so I said "It's just that I don't like the idea of giving out my address to a complete stranger", expecting him to then give me some sort of answer. Instead he just said "Alright then" and started to walk off. I said it wasn't that I was refusing to speak to him, but I just wanted to know what this was for. He answered "Well I've marked you down as refused to answer now". Fair enough, thought I, and drove on. No repercussions!
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Indication to stop by PC in uniform - offence.
Question by Researcher - Answer optional up to you.
(But as stated their research may lead to a better system)
DVD
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IIRC, the address question is usually for postcode, not actual address (unless, maybe, you don't know the postcode)
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I don't recall there being a police offic present at the last census I was stopped at, just GMPTE chaps in hi-viz jackets.
As for the reply-paid things, why not just do pay a Metro News seller to push them through people's windows at traffic lights?
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Having been stopped at least 6 times in the last 6 months by censuses which were all related not to traffic flow but to queries on car parking charges, I have asked the census takers and can tell you that they have no right to compel you to answer any of their questions
But you still have to stop for the policemen ;-)
I have to grow old - but I don't have to grow up
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There's a letter about this very subject in this month's CSMA magazine, penned by a policeman who was involved in the test case. I don't have it with me but IIRC yes, you do have to stop if directed to by a police officer (as in any situation) and no, you are not obliged to answer any of the census-takers' questions. Just explain politely that you cannot spare the time (or do not have the inclination) and you'll be on your way.
Terry
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Thanks for the advice, it confirmed what I already suspected. It seems as though they annoy me more than the rest of the backroom.
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Life is too short to get riled up about these sort of things Richie.
Colleague of mine held in a roadworthy check near High Wycombe on A40. After police mechanic almost finished checking tyres lights et. reached for grease gun, handed it out and enquired whether they could do his UJ nipples for him (This in days when there were nipples on UJs. He was there for quite some time!!!
Happy Motoring Phil I
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Re being asked for my home address - I told the guy what village I live in, he asked me again for my home address, I told him the name of the estate (which with only 16 houses is all one postcode) and he still asked for the house number!
I don't really have a problem with being consulted about developments which may affect the area in which I drive - in fact I welcome this approach - but I must say I agree with the earlier comment that rush-hour is not the best time to do these things.
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Sorry to keep on whinging but in my area it was a no brainer really. The census was conducted on a main road leaving the suburbs joining onto a major A Road 70mph dual carriageway. Anyone with a bit of local knowlegde could have pointed out the major centres of local employment which would have been the destination for the vast majority of the cars. Theres very little through traffic and we don't get many tourists in my neck of the woods.
Theres been a lot of traffic monitoring in this exact area recently (Counting cars etc) and I am getting a little worried with what the planners may have in store for us with their "Improvements".
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Hi Richie
I agree
The boiz recently caused havoc on the A12 pulling this stunt. 1 hour plus delay. Although the info is useful, its how it will be abused by the current mob that worries me.
Then there are the regular 45 mins plus on the A11 because its convienient for Bow police to delay motorists outside their own door. Twice a month. Supposedly looking for car tax dodgers.
Few people begrudge the occasional delay however it is now the norm.
regards
Vercin
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Technically a policeman can only stop you for one thing: tosee your license and subsequently charge you with any associated traffic violations. If a policeman tried to stop you with no intention of doing either then surely there is no crime in ignoring him. Parallel with: Done for resisting arrest. If it turns out its wrongful arrest then you can't be done for resisting...
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Dan
I would advise you to look at Section 163 Road Traffic Act
1988 which says a person driving MUST STOP on being required to do so by a PC in uniform ........Period. No mention as to what he has to do or why.
DVD
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Hmm, OK.
'On being required' is the key phrase: If the definition of REQUIRED is that he wants to see your licence or he intends to charge you with a traffic offence etc..(maybe even comandeer your vehicle). Surely being required doesn't cover 'cos he feels like it' for example?
It may not mention why but the requirment would be defined and enshrined in another part of the laws definition.
You are required to do X because of Y. I'm pretty sure that X in itself does not form a requirement. E.g. You are not required to co-operate with a policemen if it doesn't follow certain criteria yes/no? "Open your bag" as part of a legit stop and search is a requirement. "Open your bag cos l feel sick" does not constitute a legal requirement. Regardless of whether they are a copper or not. Am l making any sense?
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Dan.
Lodwick v Sanders 1985 - a driver is under a duty to keep a vehicle at a standstill whilst a constable has a reasonable opportunity of exercising his powers (various) and this may include telling the driver his suspicions that the vehicle had been stolen and to arrest him and thus to detail the vehicle against the driver's will. Note the stop has nothing to do with production of Docs, but this could be a reason for doing so, likewise multivarious: to check lights, to proceed to a weighbridge, to arrest a felon passenger etc etc.
On being required " a requirement to stop as indicated by the Officer".
It is an all encompassing section and used as such.
DVD
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It is an all encompassing section and used as such. DVD
I think that Dan is following my thinking here.
Its not that I dislike the Police or anything. I have always been treated with courtesy, consideration and fairness by them. I may add that I have never been "Done" for anything by them and have no axe to grind. I just cannot see anything different between what they do on their stops compared to forcing you to stop as a pedestrian or breaking your house door down in order to allow a third party to enquire whether you have;
"Thought about allowing God into your life?"
or
"Considered the Benefits of uPVC windows?".
I don't blame the bloke in uniform who is doing his job . I just think that the powers at be above him are taking the Mick and if the laws of the land allow them to do this then I think they are disproportionate and George Orwell should get a posthumous award for describing the thin end of the wedge.
I think that there must be a number of bad laws in effect if what is happening now is legal. Law and natural justice are two different things.
I would like to add that I greatly appreciate DVD's input here. Its great to be able to have his sort of knowledge and experience at hand.
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