VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - Chrisr

The engine on my 2006 (current shape) 2.0 TDi diesel Passat occasionally cuts back to half power, presumably to safe get-you-home mode. It has done it on and off since new but it is more frequent now. The car has done 146,000 miles but is still quiet, fuel consumption is good and performance - when the problem is not happening - is good.

It can happen in the following conditions:

When cold, no warning lights - only recently started doing this.

When warm, with the glow-plug light on (permanent or flashing) or with the Engine Management light on, or both.

Stopping the engine and restarting solves the problem but it could happen again after a few seconds, minutes, sometime hours or days, even weeks or months. There is absoluteley no common symptom, it can happen on light or heavy throttle, warm or cold weather, dry or raining.

Some days there is no problem at all.

My dealer has replaced the G31 sensor with no change. There are 3 warning codes and ones says there is over-boosting. I have checked the diaphragm unit and the linkage to the turbo and they are OK. The dealer recommends replacing the turbo @ circa £1,400 and I am not convinced this is the problem. I have changed one of the vacuum control/solenoid valves with no change.

A colleagues similar car did the same when new.

Does anybody have any ideas?

Thanks, Chris

VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - saxopower

is there any hissing noises under boost. mine did something similar and i had a split in one of the intercooler pipes

VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - gfewster

The 'replace the turbo' line from the dealer is typical of main dealers these days.

They aren't really interested in fixing the problem, nor do they probably have any idea how. All the want to do is sell you expensive parts at a large margin and expensive labour.

Given that it works fine half the time, you only need the slightest grain of common sense to figure out that you have an intermittent fault and it can't be the turbo. A turbocharger is a mechanical machine - it is either in a functional condition or it is not. The vanes can't be damaged beyond use one day and not the next, or anything else like that.

Cars go into limp-home mode because the ECU is told to do so by some sort of sensor. So either you have a problem with a faulty sensor, or else a set of conditions are occuring which triggers the sensor. If the dealer are saying 'turbo', then it is probably because they have read the fault codes and the one which appears to be causing this problem is a triggering of the sensor which is designed to detect turbocharger failure. Then they can fit a nice new expensive turbo for you, and when you come back next week with it still happening they can scratch their heads and start thinking of other expensive parts to supply.

It is obviously not detecting wholesale failure of the turbocharger (because sometimes the turbocharger is obviously functional), but rather it is detecting a set of conditions that look like turbocharger failure. I don't claim to be an expert on how such sensors work, but it is plausible (as someone has already mentioned, through a split hose) that the sensor might detect low boost pressure and assume turbocharger failure, hence it goes into limp home mode and leaves a fault code saying that the turbo is duff.

So check your turbo hoses. Check anything else that might cause a sensor to think that the turbo has failed. Do not replace your turbo - the fact that it works some of the time is evidence enough that there's nothing wrong with it. Stay away from the main dealer, go and see an independant diesel specialist.

Also, if it has happened since new why didn't you take it back under warranty? Perhaps you did and they were never able to fix it, in which case after a reasonable number of attempts you should have returned the car as not of merchantable quality.

VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - unthrottled

Nice reality check gfewster! It's atrocious that dealers adopt a 'lets replace this and see if it works' mentality- especially when they start with the most expensive component.

I think the fault is occuring BECAUSE the G31 MAP sensor is working perfectly. Mechanical devices (especially pressure operated valves) CAN fail intermittently, and this is where I'd be investigating. I can't recall if this engine uses a wastegate or VGT to control boost, but the principle is exactly the same. If the turbine is stuck in it's most restrictive state (wastegate closed/vanes closed), then, under acceleration, the turbo will quickly overspeed. At low RPM this causes the manifold pressure to rise above the factory set limit. This is detected by the perfectly functional G31 sensor. The only way for the ECU to curb this and rotect the turbo is to reduce the fuelling to a level where the turbine is unable to spool. If the turbine is pneumatically controlled, check that the hose hasn't collapsed in on itself, and that it is airtight. If it's electrically controlled, check that the wastegate/vanes are not choked with soot, and move freely.

If the wastegate/vanes are stuck open, the low RPM torque would be lost but high RPM cruising and acceleration would be normal. A sticking EGR valve could also lead to an intermittent loss of power-usually accompanied by excessive smoke.

VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - VAG123

In response to gfewters comments it's all too easy for everone to jump on the "Have a go at Main Dealers" Bandwagen

But First you need to get your facts right...

The most probable cause IS the Turbo as these have Variable vanes which are mechanical, and are prone to sticking, and it is well documented so, just google it for yourself .

Alternativley he could take it to an independant garage and let them chuck parts at it, before ringing up the main dealer for advise.

VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - unthrottled
Sticking vanes and wastegates can be cleaned. Turbos can be refurbished with fresh ball bearings for a fraction of the cost of a new one. A £1400 (parts only) fix is a slovenly solution to a common and manageable problem. You don't pay dealership labour rates for a numpty armed with a laptop to work his way through a flowchart, do you?
VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - VAG123

As a main dealer technician with over 21 years experience in the motor trade both working at an independent garage and a main dealer , I wouldn't class changing a turbo on a 140000+ mileage car a Slovenly Solution to a manageable problem.

And also get offended being classed as a Numpty with a laptop and flow chart.

Besides you can get them reconditioned now by turbo technics perhaps this would be good reading for you:

http://www.turbotechnics.com/news/vnt_clean.htm

VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - unthrottled
I don't know why you're taking the comment as an ad hominem attack-it wasn't . I understand that dealerships have a difficult time with cars that are brought in with intermittent faults, or customers that lie etc. But I maintain that there is perhaps an over reliance on engine diagnostics, and subsequent 'diagnosis by substitution'. Cars were being successfully repaired long before OBDII!
140,000 miles from a turbo is perfectly acceptable, but the fact remains that replacing the turbo should be the last option. £1400 for a single turbo is very steep.
VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - gfewster

As someone working in an unrelated profession with over 21 years experience of garages seeking the most profitable solution rather than the best for the customer, I would class changing a £1,400 assembly (which can't be that shot, as it works fine a lot of the time) on a 140,000+ mile car as a slovenly solution to a manageable problem.

If the vanes are sticking, take it apart and clean it. If any parts are worn, replace them.

Wait for it........ "sorry guv, VW only supply the whole turbocharger assembly".....

The problem is our throwaway society. We never maintain, repair or recondition anything anymore. It's sad.

VW Passat - VW Passat power reduction - Steven Quas

I can't see it being the turbo if the engine sometimes works fine. Turbo failure tend to result in a massive drop in power, more smoke.... Find a better dealer or a good independent.

Steven Quas , Hamburg