PCN Notice - Pica

A friend has just received a PCN notice after parking for 3 hours in a M4 motorway services whilst taking a rest and eating a meal inside the said services. She did not notice any signs but when I visited the services there are signs all over the place stating that you can only stay there for a maximum of 2 hours.

Does she have to pay this fine or will it go away if she ignores all the demands? It does seem a bit unfair when she was actually spending time and money in the services.

Thanks

PCN Notice - mike123mike

all motorway services charge after 2 hours. most use cameras and records your reg number when you drive in and then clocks you out when you pass thru the camera on your way out.

its std practise to fine your friend as thats their rules and regs. i am a hgv driver and have been for over 10 yrs and its always been the same. normally there is a guy walking around but now as technology advances forward the cameras have come in to replace the security guy.

they have all the photographic evidence they need to prove your friend was there for that time of stay

i`d pay it and let it be a lesson learned. most of these services car parking schemes are run by private companies and not the actual services themselves so approaching the services would not help. its the same as over staying your paying space in a car parking bay in town or anywhere that has a limit.

cut your losses and learn for next time.

as to ignoring the demands etc and hoping they will go ,wont happen.

to what a small fine now is better than a large fine later with bayliff charges on etc etc.

PCN Notice - Pica

Mmmm, thank you very much for your input. I have just watched a internet clip from the BBC Watchdog piece on PPCs and their advice is to take the PCN make a paper aeroplane and see how far you can fly it.

The information there seemed to suggest that no crime has been committed and as it has not been issued by the local authority or Police (i.e. a Penalty Charge Notice) then just ignore it as Parking Charge Notice is basically an invoice.

I am confused

PCN Notice - Armitage Shanks {p}

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=69749

This explains it all. It is illegal and unenforceable

Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 22/07/2010 at 23:34

PCN Notice - Pica

Excellent and thank you for the link.

I will tell my friend to ignore all demands :)

Much appreciated

PCN Notice - Dwight Van Driver

Confirm the Notice is headed:

PARKING CHARGE NOTICE and not

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE.

The later will have statutory authority and should not be ignored.

dvd

PCN Notice - Armitage Shanks {p}

Thanks for the clarification DVD! BTW, what happened to the 'sticky' that explained this in great detail? it was very useful

PCN Notice - Dwight Van Driver

Your wish As is my command:

http://www.tinyurl.com/2hr37d

http://www.tinyurl.com/lewaow

http://www.tinyurl.com/yw8nnu

Are you at Farnborough eying the pilotless?

dvd

PCN Notice - Armitage Shanks {p}

MANY thanks DVD. No - I have just seen a bit of a Red Arrows display; I was in Stamford and they were frightening themselves at at wittering! Next month I am going to Marham to hear about plans for the celebrfation of the 100th anniversary of the formation of the first fixed wing flying squadron in the RAF - it is isn't disbanded by the Defence Review!

BTW - will those links become stickies or will people have to find them within your post?

PCN Notice - Pica

I spent the afternoon at the bottom end of the runway at Farnborough with my camera and SWMBO and the Red Arrows were amazing.

PCN Notice - Armitage Shanks {p}

We must hope that you were appropriately parked and didn't get another Charge Notice!

PCN Notice - LucyBC

"Parking Charge Notices" aren't illegal and they are enforceable but only through the civil court.

Essentially they rely on contract law. By parking there you accept the terms of the contract and if you overstay then the terms for the overstay can apply which means they can charge you.

The contract has to be clearly defined and outlined by signage which must be prominent (and essentially unmissable).

The difficulty these firms have is that enforcing a charge requires taking you to court which costs them money - especially if you put in a defence - to recover a (relatively) small amount so they will use debt collector tactics and bombard you with endless threats of "imminent" court action - on the basis that a second class stamp is cheap and enough people will pay up to cover the costs.

Many people get worn down by them and do pay up but the chances are that if your friend is resilient then they will go away - after the "debt" has been sold on several times - probably in about four or five years or so :-)

The best tactic is avoid entering into any correspondence and certainly do not follow their "appeals procedure" as all you will do is confirm the address they have and dig yourself in deeper.

Cases do occiasionally go to the small claims court - it is contract and hence a civil matter - and if they can show that the signage was clear and that there was an overstay then the court might find for them.

That said a court hearing these cases is very rare and the balance of probability suggests that no response or acknowledgement is probably the best tactic.

PCN Notice - Armitage Shanks {p}

Many thanks for your clear explanation of the legal position. Is it worth "putting in a defence" or is it better to avoid ANY contact with the firm, which is your advice I think?

Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 24/07/2010 at 17:00

PCN Notice - LucyBC

My advice woud be not to answer unless they issue proceedings which means you get a letter from the court - not a threat of a letter from the court.

They will dress up letters in all sorts of forms. If you get a letter I will advise you what to do entirely free of charge if you send me a copy.

PCN Notice - Pica

Thank you so much for your help and advice and I will keep you posted on what happens

PCN Notice - concrete

Hello Lucy, you are correct about the way correspondence is presented. All black and white checks around the border and a very official looking layout to virtually copy a police penalty notice. For clarification, if these letters/notices are basically invoices does that mean you incur a debt if you don't pay? I thought they could only sue you for breach of contract i.e their parking rules. Then if they actually win a civil case it becomes a debt which is enforcable by bailiffs. Also would the court only award them what they have financially lost by your actions, which would be, say 1 hour parking at a notional couple of pounds? In any event the key is NOT to acknowledge their correspondence at all. If they are that keen let them sweat for their money. As you say, a stamp comes cheap. Regards Concrete

PCN Notice - LucyBC

If they can prove breach of contract the court would award them the amount on the signage. Usually the award would be the maximum set underthe various DVLA codes which is £140. They will not allow them to keep claiming more costs.

But in the past we have dealt with many thousands of cases and none of them went anywhere apart from producing mountains of letters.

I have informally advised on three "test" cases which went to court - all of which were won by the defendant.

Only one case - a case in which we were not involved - Combined Parking Solutions -v- Stephen J Thomas - was the only one of which we have any record of where a private parking company won in court. That it is such a rarity means it is widely quoted by private parking companies.

Mr Thomas had parked on church land which probably elicited more sympathy than is usual from the judge but he also altered some documents presented to the court - amounting to perjury - (which did not please the court either) and he lost the case.

This was in the lower courts and no precedent was set (although all the parking companies deceitfully seek to imply that it does).

PCN Notice - Armitage Shanks {p}

Presumably if one overstayed the 2 hour limit for free parking in a supermarket there would be no financial loss and no loss of revenue for which to sue? This would just leave the apparently unenforeceable "Penalty charge"