"At the bottom must come Daewoo/ Chevrolet, abysmal cars with little appeal and poor resale."

Abysmal? Nah. They aren't sexy but then neither are Toyota. I see them as ideal second cars; vastly underrated, reliable and reasonably well-engineered budget cars.

All I care about is: 1) do they handle well, 2) are they reliable.

Newer Daewoos are fairly tidy handlers -- much better than Citroen. The old ones were awful in this regard but that's due to the Vauxhall "heritage".

I used to favour Nissan as the tightwad-but-good car of choice, but I'm starting to favour Mitsubishi now. Just bought a Space Star as a second car and the handling is so far ahead of the typical Scenic/Picasso Frogmobile it's a joke.

My list would be a bit back-to-front. BMWs seem unreliable to me from work colleagues' experience; Mercedes I just find dull,and Audis are amazingly ordinary to drive. VWs are no better than Fords, Vauxhalls are simply garbage and I wouldn't touch a French car with someone else's bargepole.

Lexuses seem a bit tacky for the prices you pay for them and Toyotas are terminally dull. Of all the makes out there I'd put Ford, Mazda, Volvo and especially Honda at the top of the tree. Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Kia for budget buys, and Daewoos deserving of a special mention for anyone wanting something cheap.

Vauxhalls are simply garbage

Are they? why is that then?

I couldn't disagree more from my own experience. Whilst I admit that most Vauxhalls are hardly going to find their way to the top of a desirability list, for many people, a car that is cheap to buy and maintain is exceptionally important. For every person that has had a bad experience with any manufacturer (and therefore vows never to buy a car made by them again), there are always thousands of people who don't complain because they are entirely satisfied. I have owned several Vauxhalls - my current Vectra is 12 years old, has no rust on it at all, starts every day and apart from a cambelt change (for piece of mind!), I have spent hardly anything on it apart from routine maintenance and some minor suspension problems. It cost me 2000 pounds to buy when 5 years old and I could sell it tomorrow and get several hundred pounds for it. That is what is important to many people! But I guess I too have my prejudices - I have never wanted to buy a Japanese car because I don't like the look of them, even though their reliablilty record is excellent! Oh well, each to his own, I guess!

Many of these brands have a heritage that goes back many years, and they have produced some great models throughout their history. I think that to buy a car just because the brand is desirable is foolish. Many manufacturers have produced the odd lemon. I tend to buy a car that is known to be a particularly good example from that manufacturer at that time. It would be uninformed to buy a used Mercedes W210 (E class) because you thought all Mercedes were near the top of their game, when the W124 before it was a much more rounded, reliable car.

A brand is only as good as the engineers and builders make it at the time. We can see what happens when the bean counters step in. The Peugeot 306 was a fantastic model in it's day, but would you buy a Peugeot 307 if you knew what we know now about it's unreliability. Probably not, unless you were a committed Peugeot fan that put that brand above all others.

Edited by corax on 07/06/2010 at 12:45

Kia/Hyundai [they offer longest warranty]
Honda/Toyota/Suzuki + all Japanese brands [= reliability]
Skoda/VW/Vauxhall [ = good value for money]
Merc/BMW/Audi [ = can't figure out why people spend so much money on them while they are not better than any lower priced alternatives]
All French cars [ = unreliable]


Anyone care to explain why Merc/BMW are desirable?

They don't work in winter [well works if you fit winter tyres]
Often goes wrong and costs arm & leg to fix
Ride and handling not different from any other car [in day to day life]
Cost more to maintain due to insurance/tax/service/fuel economy.

Then again I hate Apple products while some others admire them.

Everyone's perception is different. That's why in open market both Perodua and Bentley have customers.

Interesting for me that people separate cars built from the same platforms, with the same drivetrains and suspensions, in terms of desirability. Sure, Audi's look good, but what a premium to pay over a Skoda. I think I've arrived at a point in life where I still like cars, admire attractive ones, desire fast ones, but want value for money in a car that's practical for our roads. I'm struggling to see the point in buying anything beyond an Octavia. As perfectly capable a piece of transport car as my fridge freezer is at keeping food fresh/frozen.

Sniff!

Steyr-Daimler-Puch, didnt even get a mention, bigots every one of you.

so its worth the extra cost to catch people admiring your car when you fill up with petrol or go to the supermarket.

I'm not saying this applies to you specifically vxr53, but I think this is a mistake quite a few people can make - they automatically assume that because someone is staring at them and their car it must be in admiration and envy.

Consider the possibility that people who look at you when you are filling up or at the supermarket are actually thinking "jeez, what a w****er; he think's he's really something, but he looks a right t***er"

People can stare in scorn and disgust, as well as in admiration

Brand desirability pales into insignificance compared with watches.

The whole European industry is tiered into names and levels that a customer will pay. It`s possible to spend over £2,000 on a quartz `prestige` brand - that has an identical movement to a `lower` brand name (same group) watch selling at under £100.

Mechanical movements are trotted out as now desirable and charged in thousands. But they already had the tooling from the pre electronic age and have often just done minor mods (AKA - hand made) to £10 escapements.

The whole industry absolutely shrieks of `brand desirability` - but even here there is a sort of inverted perspective.

The guy in the cafe, angling his top-of-the-range watch so that others can see -certainly doesn`t realize that someone else wearing the £100 bottom-of-the-range is actually inwardly sighing because he knows that it`s basically the same movement. And that in these circumstances - quality really is a wallet induced illusion.

That`s the upside of cars in my opinion. It`s not as though you can stick a `quality` badge on a basic crate -charging the same, is it?

Though they may have tried at one time......Even then, the attempt is obvious and transparent - unlike in the watch Industry.

Edited by oilrag on 09/06/2010 at 08:16

Just as I thought, this type of post does get you anywhere at all.

I have now owned two VW Golfs, bought because of a misconception that they were a sort of 'quality' car which they clearly aren't.

They have lots of electrical gizmos and clever ways of interconnecting certain functions but intrinsically would I like to travel to Istanbul in it (or a lot of other 'clever' cars) - I think not.

Back to the days of simplicity and honesty. With BMWs who want to embark on a long journey with runflats and then experience a puncture - what do you do, find someone who can bring a new tyre to you out in the wilds.

Its all marketing hype, they are all bits of bashed out steel with some oily bits and seats.

vxr53 - I'm constantly amazed at the people who live in poky little houses who drive cars at odds with where they live. I'd rather put the money or the payments into my home. But then I can't show off in that can I? I rather like the fact that no-one overlooks me and can't see into my home or garden, what neighbours I have are in a certain income bracket and enjoy being here for the same reasons I do, valuing the surroundings and teaching their children how to behave properly. I also quietly enjoy the fact that it's valued at about ten the price of an E-class, and paid for. But I drive a Golf soon to be exchanged for an Octavia. Do I sound brash,pompous and arrogant? No more so than someone imagining everyone's admiring their car and wondering what they do to 'achieve' it. Sounds like a minor psychological disorder to me!

I don't have brand desirability. I'm not a badge snob either.

I currently have a BMW 335d coupe. Simply because its a very capable car. I didn't get it for it's image or badge. I bought it because the engine is a masterpiece, yet it will do 47mpg and i wanted an auto so i can relax around town and i wanted to sit in a nice cabin, all things that make ME happy.

Thats the point, people have different desires at different times in their lives and these are based on their requirements. I currently have a desire for the FT-86 Toyota which isn't yet built. Why? Because its the first RWD toyota in years, it's going to have the boxer subaru engine which i've always loved and it even looks good.

I don't believe brand desire can exist. For example, i don't desire any other BMW apart from the 335d. Simply because it is the right package. I therefore, wouldn't get a 320i just because i desire the BMW brand.

However, i do think a lot of people buy cars for the brand and the brand only, i can't see why myself.

I totally agree, thats why i drive and enjoy my E class, engine and autobox are superb, and the ride is certainly better than my previous Volvo S60, but i also like Vauxhalls, and would possibly go back to one in the future, especially the Insignia.

I think brand perception is only a part of the story in the VW/Skoda reliability contest.

The running gear and most of the trouble-prone fittings are of course common for a given platform - so no observations here, although build state may well be a factor - see later.

Having worked in the auto components industry for some time, it has become very apparent to me that much perceived "unreliability" is in fact mis-handling and actual damage caused by the mechanics employed to carry out servicing and remedial work - and in some cases, owners. The incidence of consequential problems and damage is far too high - the UK garage trade has a lot to answer for here.

In VAG's case, new developments generally apppear on an Audi platform first, where they may be sold at the highest price and will eventually end up in the Skoda bargain basement. Where there is an obvious design cock up such as the chain driven balancer 2.0 diesel engine, Audi owners get it in the neck wheras Skoda drivers escape by having to wait for the later engines - by which time the most serious design faults are rectified. The engine in question was modified to a gear driven system for the balance shafts.

Audi maintain their brand prestige by generous treatment when defects arise - but you've paid for it many times over in tied servicing.

VW are in the middle - not such good service and lesser trained mechanics (you haven't paid Audi prices with service levels to match) and disatisfaction levels are likely to be higher. Levels of mishandling certainly are in my experience.

Skoda are an oddity in that there are still dealers around who have based their businesses on the values required to keep an independent trader operating - although this seems to be changing as the corporate "VAG glass palace" empire permeates the Skoda brand. Despite this, on average I have found slightly higher levels of competence under this badge than the VW brand. This does not seem set to last.

So, Skoda = a better deal due to well-proven components specified late in the platform cycle, coupled with slightly better dealer handling. Owner perception probably tilts the balance a little further in favour of Skoda's ratings.

659.

...apart from Audi and Mercedes, there was nothing else that even came close to the 335d as a complete package.

Jag XF diesel S?

Jag: 275bhp, 442 lb ft torque, VED band E, 0-62 5.9 secs, 500 litre boot. £36,900 with most things as standard inc leather, satnav and splitfold seats.

BMW: 286bhp, 427 lb ft torque, VED band I, 0-62 6.0 secs, 450 litre boot. £34995 with

many things as standard..but.. leather = £1240, sat nav = £1565 and split fold

seats= £260. Add them up = £38060

Jag is in 5 series territory for size, so you get more room in it and for me the 3 series is J

a tad cramped in the cockpit.

Of course the Jag doesn't have the same 'image' as the BMW...which is why i'd have it.

I wonder how Toyota will recover from their sticking accelerator problem, although this only affected a small percentage of cars and was rapidly dealt with.

Hmm, good thread this.

But how do you feel vxr when you pull up next to an S class or simliar ? Some would say look a that 'poor mans' Merc

Each to their own if you want to blow your money on a car then great, wish I had the same mentality, but for me common sense and more important priorities take place, mind you thinking of it I could easily afford something special, but a my name states, cars are exactly that !

Not too sure what precise model it is you have, but agree frameless doors are great on any car, until the seals start leaking !

If it floats your boat then enjoy every second of it.

A friend of mine at the age of 21 bought a brand new RR Carmargue when they were current, £120,000 worth of car back in the 80's ! Fool as they are simply one of the most awkward lookng things on the road. Mind you he did also have a string of models with the prancing horse as its emblem.

"They think he/she must be doing well to be driving a mercedes"

Not necessarily.. :-)

Driving my son in laws 320d down the M55 the other day and I was in the middle of a 6 car 3 series chain. My own Mazda 2 seemed much more desirable at that moment. As good as I am sure prestige German cars are, they are just too common and uninspiring in my view to be in my "desirable" list. A victim of their own success I suppose.