Given the Toyota recall and the advice given in relation to a throttle stuck problem on various websites and the thread here on how far can you rev the engine, I was wondering what back roomers might do?
Personally I reckon that though it would be scary and potentially dangerous, that not panicking and getting it into neutral are key, and that unless really unlucky it should be a manageable situation.
Any views on how to handle it and would the engine be damaged by the being over revved?
FTF
|
The one that's keeping me awake jsut now is:
if you own a turbo diesel automatic, and the turbo seals start to go, and you end up with the car running on it's own oil even with the key out of the ignition.
How do you stop it destroying itself? It's auto so you can't stall it (or can you?)
p.s. i dont, and wont, own a turbo diesel automatic :-) life must be going well if this is all i have to worry about! haha
|
|
|
A Toyota Avensis flew past me this morning while waiting to cross the road to feed the sheep. I wonder if the throttle was stuck?
Japanese reliability- ha ha ha he he he . I'm going to have a good time goading my smug brother in law who thinks he is top dog with his new Auris.
|
|
|
Turn ignition off and cut engine power, unless it's feeding itself on it's own engine oil (a different fault altogether) it will stop.
Another reason not to have stop/start buttons...haven't found one good reason for them yet.
|
The only way I know to stop a run away diesel is to cut off the air supply, stuff a rag in the air intake.
I had a hire car with a sticky throttle on Malta many years ago (the cable was rusty) but was able to slip my foot beneath the pedal and push it upwards. There again driving flat out like a lunatic doesn't attract much attention out there.
|
|
|
Panic! is an automatic response, well - it is with me anyway ...
I was walking my perro (Dog) through the park once and he jumped over a wall and fell 15ft into the river Medway (Kent)
I was soooo shocked that I just closed down and kind of froze with absolute dis-belief and my wife and brother had to fish the un-harmed dog out until I came to my senses.
Another time I was swimming orf Playa de las Americas in Tenerife quite early one winters morning - one about and the beach was empty ... I turned around to swim back to shore but soon realised I was being carried out to sea by the very strong current that occurs in that area so - I panicked and tried to swim as hard and as fast as I could but I began to hyperventilate and was becoming too weak to carry on!
Oh! I thought - this is it and I'ma gonna be a gonna so - I thought about it quite clearly and logically, then I just laid on my back doing a gentle back-stoke working with the current and eventually came ashore further along the coast.
The motoring link is that at another time, when I was a mad sowf eeast Londoner, I was showing a relative how fast my Triumph Dolomite Sprint (automatic) was, and the throttle got stuck at full bore!
You guessed it - I panicked and my much younger relative told me to put it in neutral and switch the ignition orf.
I remember reading an article about how some people will switch off (mentally) when faced with a very difficult situation - literally stunned, but there is no way of saying what you would do sitting in front of your monitor - until or if the situation should arise.
|
>>literally stunned but there is no way of sayingwhat you would do sitting in front of your monitor - until or if the situation should arise.
And I had you down as a bit of a cool thing!!
As you say the turn off thing is what affects most folk.
Best reg's...........MD
|
>>> And I had you down as a bit of a cool thing!! <<<
I am ... after a few jars ;-)
|
|
|
|
I'm sure that I have read that turning the ignition off is not the thing to. It didn't say why though!!! Admit it would be something I would try. There would still be a vacuum for the brakes wouldn't there and the steering lock doesn't engage till the keys are removed, or is that model specific?
Or am I completely up the creek?
FTF
|
Advice I saw on BBC yesterday, warned that if you turned off the ignition and knocked it into neutral you'd lose power assistance to the steering and brakes.
Where do they find these so-called experts? I agree about the steering, but every brake servoed car I've ever had has always had a few brake pedal operations in reserve. It only needs one push to stop it!
|
Brakes still work with the engine off, but need a firmer push.
Clutch pedal down, neutral, kill the engine, taking care not to turn the key so far anti-clockwise as to allow the steering lock to engage.
I reckon in most situations if the throttle stuck you could coast to a halt.
It's unlikely you will have been accelerating hard towards a brick wall when it happens.
There's also some retardation available from the handbrake, although you don't want to yank it on so hard as to lock the wheels.
And there's nothing to stop you putting it back in gear once the ignition is off to get some engine braking.
|
Whatever car it is, I would simply turn it off and coast to the side of road. You don't need steering assistance if over about 10mph.
The brakes usually have at least 5 applications in reserve.
If it is a diesel, most made in say the last 10 years have an intake shut-off valve anyway so should shutdown, even if not I suspect that they would produce very little power even if they can rev high with no load.
|
|
|
|
Bathtub, I think the problem with that advice is turning off the ignition AND putting it in neutral with the consequent loss of engine braking and the vacuum on which power brakes depend. Turning the engine off but leaving it in gear would still turn the engine over with the benefit of both engine braking and maintaining power assisted braking.
I suppose though that the easiest simplest thing to do that will work on all cars irrespective of model differences is put it in neutral and use the brakes.
By the way has anyone tried braking or steering when the power assistance has failed? It still works but its very hard work and there is massive loss in braking.
FTF
|
...By the way has anyone tried braking or steering when the power assistance has failed...
Many times while being towed in a broken down car.
No worries, although it was some time ago so the cars would have had narrower tyres and might have been lighter.
As another poster says, there's no problem with the steering once you are moving, and the brakes still work, they just feel dead.
We all managed to avoid crashing into each other when most cars had no servo assistance for the brakes.
|
|
Aim for something soft, no trees or oncoming vehicles.
|
Reading Perro's post, I think I have the opposite wiring in my brain. On the couple of occcasions I have been in a motoring 'crisis' my brain seemed to go into super focused mode. Once I saw someone get hit by a car a few cars ahead of me (he flew in the air) in two lines of traffic on an arterial road of two lanes of rush hour traffic. I moved across to slow everyone behind me down, described what I was doing to my wife told her to get into the driver's seat as we pulled up and was out of the car and into a shop at the side of the road calling 999 in one movement it seemed.
Another time I could see cars ahead braking suddenly on a wet surface and that the car right up my jacksie was going to be shunted into mine by the Transit behind him, so I pulled into the centre of the road, where I braked gently to see the car behind me get shoved past mine and into the bumper of the car that had previously been in front of me. After offering my name as a witness I drove off leaving the tangled mess behind and feeling a bit weird about it all.
Funnily both incidents about a mile apart but separated by 15 years.
|
I've had both experiences: of clicking into super-fast logical mode and getting away with it, and freezing with my foot on the brake pedal and all wheels locked sailing in stately fashion into the rear of the car in front (or whatever).
Depends on one's mental and physical state at the time, and to some extent I think on the apparent gravity of the impending crash. If it's truly life-threatening the fast, accurate response is more likely. If it's shaping up like most crashes - merely expensive and embarrassing - there's a fairly high probability that you will just think dully 'Oh DAMN!' without doing anything useful.
|
|
|
|
As another poster says there's no problem with the steering once you are moving
I had a short drive in my parents' S reg 1.0 Micra some years ago which didn't have power steering, and turning 90 degrees at slow speed into a junction was pretty hard work. I hate to think what it would be like on my 2.0 Focus without assistance, never mind anything bigger.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logic says you would brake and / or put the clutch out if there were one - if in doubt, both feet out! I can tell you from experience though that instinct rather than logic is the governor.
About 25 years ago I picked up a 4.2 XJ6 auto, a few years old but tidy enough, to deliver it 20 miles away. A few miles down the road is a big roundabout (M1 J38 for those who know it). I slowed and a gap appeared. so I hit the accelerator hard and launched. On lifting off a bit (I was going round a roundabout) the pedal stayed where it was and the car continued to gather pace in a frightening way.
My first action was to try and get my toe under the pedal - illogical! That didn't work and a second or two later I went for the ignition key and turned it off. I'll never know what I would have done had the ignition lock not been in the same location as the Golf I habitually drove at the time.
It certainly gave me a scare.
|
This is what you do - seems easy enough - I now know not to panic.
From my Yahoo home page
tinyurl.com/yh7mkt9
|
|
one could always put ones head between ones knees and pray for christmas
|
|
|
I'm aware of the extra effort needed to turn 'old fashioned' hydraulic PAS when the engine's off. You're pushing the hydraulics as well as the steering.
What about electric PAS with the ignition off? Are you turning an electric motor as well as the steering?
|
|
|
|
|
I really don't see what the problem would be? Dump the clutch and the engine will probably bounce off the rev-limiter, but so what? There will be a limiter on any modern engine, so no damage will be caused.
So now, will full control as power brakes and steering will still be working normally, you can make your way over to the side of the road. If necessary you can let the clutch up again to gain a little speed if you need to. Pull over, turn the engine off, no harm done.
All else is just scaremongering at one level. But a valid point to be made is that many people wouldn't think to do the above; clearly education on safe action would be useful in any case.
|
talking to someone the other week and his clutch exploded in his transit van and took half the gearbox with it
so dumping clutches at high revs in modern stuff might leave you a gonad short if engine running on its own juices
|
I've had it happen a couple of times, usually a frayed cable in older cars......no problem, snick her in neutral, switch her off and coast to a stop.
When all this Toyota business came up, I sat SWMBO in the black leather chair and asked her a starter for ten....' Do you know what to do if...? ' Result, thumb in mouth and brain in neutral for a good few seconds ! No answer forthcoming ! Are new drivers actually taught what action to take in certain, unlikely, situations ? I would have thought sitting next to a driver who collapses over the wheel might bring the same response from my beloved !
Ted
|
>>I've had it happen a couple of times, usually a frayed cable in older cars......no problem, snick her in neutral, switch her off and coast to a stop.
I think the problem in my case was exacerbated by the fact that I had just rammed the pedal into the carpet, so was at full throttle with a 4 litre car on a roundabout. But for that I might have been calmer and more deliberate.
It's clearly not that uncommon, and I have some sympathy with Toyota. It never occurred to me to blame Jaguar.
|
|
|
|
>>I really don't see what the problem would be?
The problem is that when nothing is going wrong we all drive by rote and instinct - when you want to slow, you don't think about it, you just allow the pedal to come back - if it doesn't, the natural reaction as I discovered is to try and make it.
All but the dimmest of us can work out that braking and dipping (not dumping) the clutch is a fairly foolproof idea, but you aren't going to start working through the options when it happens.
Thinking about it in advance of it happening may be helpful, as you imply.
I don't think it would take many people 60 miles to work it out though -
tinyurl.com/y9u246l
|
I don't think it would take many people 60 miles to work it out though - tinyurl.com/y9u246l
Filed away in the memory banks in case i spot a camera/plod and i'm doing something very wrong..;)
|
|
|
>> tinyurl.com/y9u246l
>>
I think Kevin wants looking at!
|
Good way of avoiding points and a ban !
Shame you have to wreck your motor to do it.
Didn't he turn out to be an attention-seeker ?
Ted
|
|
Worrying that he couldn't get it into neutral!!!
|
I have a 06 Yaris 1.3, with the MMT auto-shifting gearbox, so am one of those in the recall's range. At the moment the throttle is perfectly OK, no stickiness at all.
I decided to try out the Toyota recommended procedure of putting the gearbox into neutral and then switching the ignition off. In order to make the test realistic I did this on a motorway at 70 mph in the middle lane with the throttle at maximum depression (not being suicidal I did this when it was quiet). This is what I found:
a) The Yaris has a rev limiter at about 6400 rpm
b) The brakes worked just fine
c) The electric steering did not work, but was not necessary for the degree of movement needed to head for the hard shoulder
d) The indicators did not work (obvious) and this could have been a problem if the event happened in heavy traffic
e) The steering did not lock, but had I managed to pull out the key, possibly only a small way it could have done and this could be dangerous
|
|
|
I've scanned through this whole thread and I couldn't see this point mentioned, so forgive me if I've missed it, but... Don't cars with drive-by-wire accelerators automatically cut the throttle if both accelerator and brake pedals are pushed at the same time?
This was certainly the case 9 years ago in my diesel Octavia, which meant I couldn't brush the brakes with my left foot to dry them after a ford. In the current Toyota case, surely by pressing the brake pedal the car's ECU should reduce the throttle opening to near zero allowing normal deceleration albeit after a brief lurch of full acceleration.
|
The CRV certainly cuts the fuel when the brake is pressed, as I discovered when drying the brakes too.
This was slightly puzzling as it's no problem to do heel and toe style downchanges without coming off the brake. The explanation is that if you press the accelerator when you're already on the brake it will work.
The wonder of computers.
|
What next?
I contemplate how monumentally unlucky I've been to have been one in 10,000 as against the one in 100 that faced much the same problem in their 90s Vauxhalls whose cambelt snapped, as I rather noisily coast to the hard shoulder with my foot on the clutch.
Kick the car a couple of times and call the AA.
|
I just called out to the missus in the other room watching some carp on the telly ...
What would you do if the throttle got stuck in the car as you were driving it?
She said I don't think I've got a throttle, !
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 07/02/2010 at 04:09
|
|
|
This came up on 5 Live's breakfast prog around 08:00 yesterday. They had a guy with a Yaris Verso (not affected by the current recall) but who believed him/his wife had experienced throttle jams. The owner of the petrol heads site Rob Porter(?) was also on as expert.
Mr Porter was (I thought rather tactlessly) concerned that folks could pass their tests and not have the presence of mind and skills to cope with a runaway throttle.
But how many of us have, at least mentally, rehearsed this one? I've done brake failure and stopped only on engine retardation and hanbrake. My 1.6 petrol BX occasionaly lost power completely due to fuel vapourising prematurely so I've done that one livel. It always gave a warning by hesitating before dieing completely so getting onto the hard shoulder or verge was always possible. I think with a runaway throttle I'd dip the clutch and let the rev limiter save the engine but I've never had the nerve to practice it.
As others say the skill is to recognise what's happened. Don't buy the run for miles tales like the BMW that supposedly ran away on the A1, but I'm not sure I'd diagnose quickly enough to avoid tail ending somebody.
|
Surely, the best action to take with a stuck throttle is to slow the car to a halt using the brakes and then switch orf when in a safe position to do so.
That's what I've advised er indoors to do anyway.
The thing that got me panicky with my Sprint was after I came to a stop and then stuck the thing in neutral and having the 2ltr 16v engine scream-out at full throttle before I eventually switched the ign off - I should have done it the other way around of course.
|
Mr Porter was (I thought rather tactlessly) concerned that folks could pass their tests and not have the presence of mind and skills to cope with a runaway throttle.
Topic drift here. As a swimming teacher I get trained in rescue techniques and CPR but, having had a relatively crisis-free life so far, I really don't know how I'd react in a genuine emergency. I suspect I may be another Perro and freeze.
Other points; the steering lock is designed not to engage unless the key is pulled from the lock, and many cars have an auxiliary ignition position which will allow indicators and wipers to work even though power to the engine is cut.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I really don't see what the problem would be? Dump the clutch and the engine will probably bounce off the rev-limiter but so what? There will be a limiter on any modern engine so no damage will be caused.
No - My Primastar van started running on its own oil. - turbo failure.
When this occurred I thought it was the throttle cable at first, so I switched the ingition off, put it in gear and threw my foot off the clutch and this seemed to have solved the problem.
The rev limiter is set at 3500 revs - I assume via the ECU, but this didbn't stop it revving beyond that.
As the dealer principle said, presence of mine in switching the ignition off saved the engine. Repair was limited to turo and intercooler
|
|
|
|
