Back in the 60s even the most luxurious cars [Jaguar, Rolls/Bentley] had no need of V8s. The only non-niche car that did was a Rover [bought in from Buick].
If there was no need then, why are they 2 a penny now? I suppose the iconic Hollywood car-chase growl has a certain boyish appeal but the extra iron carted around plus the double exhaust system which wipes off at least 10bhp keeping an inherently rough engine smooth makes neither practical nor economic sense.
Nowadays they are clearly a triumph of marketing over common sense - or am I missing something?
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Ford V8 Pilot?
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Daimler Dart
Triumph Stag from 1970
Rolls Royce in 1905, and again in the late '50s to the present day.
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Daimler had a 2.5 and a 4.5 just before they were taken over by Jaguar. Both engines were used and the Majestic Major was very quick for a large limo.
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Majestic Major
>>>>]
>>>>>>> wasnt that a peak frean biscuit
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Nothing wrong with V8s - lovely smooth engines. A friend used to have a 4.5 litre V8 Majestic Major. It was amazingly fast for its age and the type of car it was, and towed beautifully. Silly engines are configurations like V4s and V5s that are a triumph of engineering over poor design!
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Yes, the Dart had a lovely engine - but v much a niche car, not many around. But the Stag's was just an embarrassment. Sooner or later most had to be substituted by the Buick.
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Every big Mercedes from the 600 in the 1960s had a V8 option...
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If there was no need then why are they 2 a penny now? I suppose the iconic Hollywood car-chase growl has a certain boyish appeal but the extra iron carted around plus the double exhaust system which wipes off at least 10bhp keeping an inherently rough engine smooth makes neither practical nor economic sense.
Let's explore this a little more - agreed the engine block itself will certainly be heavier but many V6 engines also have dual exhaust systems and with appropriate flow designs an exhaust will minimise power loss and having a correctly sized dual exhaust will provide better breathing than a single larger pipe. (pi*r^2 for two 3" pipes = 14.1sq.in vs pi*r^2 for a single 4" pipe = 12.6sq.in)
What do you mean by an inherently rough engine too? The Flat-Plane Crank V8 is inherently unbalanced and needs balancer shafts to smooth it out but the Cross-Plane V8 is inherently balanced albeit because of the weight balancers on the crankshaft.
Nowadays they are clearly a triumph of marketing over common sense - or am I missing something?
The pleasure of driving one is immense and ultimately there's no major reason why not if you can afford one - they're not all fuel hungry either (the new A8 Diesel V8 does nearly 38mpg) and many use barely more fuel than another car of equivalent performance - think Jaguar XKR V8 vs Subaru Impreza WTI - driven to keep up with each other there's probably nothing between them for economy. There's definitely something in the Jag's favour for sound though...
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Yep, you are missing something... the gorgeous sound of an American V8 like a Chevvy or Ford... nothing quite like them... I was brought up on them in F1 Stock Cars in the days when they didn't fit silencers... 20 of them roaring round Belle Vue under the flood lights, sideways round the bends, inches appart... nothing compares with that these days... more's the pity!
Edited by b308 on 10/12/2009 at 18:57
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>>F1 Stock Cars in the days when they didn't fit silencers
What, they fit silencers nowadays?
They'll be ruining the lovely sound of model aircraft engines next. ;>)
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Yep, worse luck... When I raced the F2s in the 80s they did... but we used to knock out the baffles, now they check!!
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Belle Vue, oh yes that brings back memories. An Oldsmobile rocket 88 with 8 stub exhausts, flashing and popping as they eased off for the bends. You would not question V8's if you had heard and actually felt that effect. I used to be on the team for 55 Charlie Finikin, sadly no longer with us. Happy days!! Even happier when the Olds was replaced by a Mercury Marauder, and we got "in the money" more often.
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the highlight of my week used to be to go to bradford on a friday night to see the proper stocks i used to always stand on the corner by the pits and just soak up the roar and thunder it was as good as anything santa pod could unleash
i missed the week when the underbelly came off a stocker and killed that poor bloke in the stands
i quite enjoyed bridlington? stock cars too on the tarmac but nothing could beat bradford, not even speedway at the shay
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i missed the week when the underbelly came off a stocker and killed that poor bloke in the stands
I didn't BB, but was on the other side... and the driver at White City and later a flag marshall at Newtongrange... as they say, Motor Racing is Dangerous...
Did you used to go to Owlerton as well?
Coventry is still going, and shale, I went once last year, the trouble is that they are allowed fancy tyres as well on the F1s so the "balancing act" Smithy, Cronnie and the rest used to do on the bends has all but gone, its certainly not as spectacular as it used to be...
I didn't think Charlie Finniken was all that old, I can remember him starting...
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I didn't think Charlie Finniken was all that old I can remember him starting...
Ignore me, I was thinking of Bert...
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Did you used to go to Owlerton as well?
>
>>yes, i also remember flying back to my home town so i could get a last pint in at 10.30 at my local,of course you cant do those speeds anymore :-(
i also remember going to a track in the middle of nowhere,i think it was in derbyshire but it was really weird as once the cars passed you it went earily quiet,only went a few times as atmosphere made the event
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Yep worse luck...
One for Boggles and BB, and you can see the silencer and hear the effect it has on the sound... still a beast, though!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIjAuHYzO90
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Just watched the video
and roof number 212 springs to mind?
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and roof number 212 springs to mind?
:-)
His son Frankie is still going I understand... as is Stuart and Andy Smith (sons of...), I have to admit to being a Smithy fan, though my favourite was Graham Blundell (156) who lived in my village...
Buxton track was (and still is) in the middle of nowhere high on the hills... don't know if thats the one you mean...
Edited by b308 on 11/12/2009 at 15:44
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"am I missing something?"
Depends whether you've driven one...
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If V8s are so daft, why did Rolls go to the trouble of developing their own V8 in the 60s?
Because a well-designed V8 configuration delivers a (relatively) compact large-capacity engine, with good refinement, excellent torque and fairly easy installation & packaging.
They can also sound glorious.
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They can also sound glorious
That should be enough if you're a petrol-head. Nuff said.
Edited by Pugugly on 10/12/2009 at 20:34
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Before long, the "Greenies" will tell us that anything with more than 3 cylinders, does more than 70 mph and less than 70 mpg is driven by planet assasins.
Do I detect another thin end of a wedge here ?
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1.4 Turbo engines for Formula 1 next year?
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1.5 litre V6 turbos from Honda were allegedly pushing 1300-1500 bhp in F1 qualifying over 20 years ago....
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The 4.7 V8 Vantage that I was in the other day seemed neither stupid nor silly :-)
If you can afford one then why not?
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Lying in bed, in a lorry cab on a lorry park, and hearing a Scania V8 start up is music to the ears.
It's the sound of perfection:)
Pat
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I think I'm missing something....how can an engine be stupid?
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V12 Rolls Royce merlin. music to my ears.........................
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How about a nice portable V8 you can (just about) carry with you? :-)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8TXMUaC9Os
Or for V12 fans (this really is amazing)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mutb7KgA9NM&feature=fvw
I would love to have the skill, patience, self discipline and money to build something like this.
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Or for V12 fans (this really is amazing)
Fabulous - thanks for that, DP - that V12 sounds really sweet [in stark comparison to the V8].
I suppose the fashion for expensive unnecessary V8s is a bit like watches - there is a fashion for exquisitely engineered mechanical timepieces. For a fraction of their cost you can get a more accurate watch which regularly interrogates the atomic clock.
As for 'music to the ears' - some people like Shostakovich....as do I - but only very occasionally!
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Maybe a little off piste but I always thought that the 'balanced engine' hierarchy went something like:
Opposed (flat) 4
Straight 6
V12
I'm not sure that V8 is actually one of the more optimal configurations ?
I've nothing against them of course, the Rover / Buick V8 in a colleague's ageing TVR sounds lovely....
As for their popularity, it wouldn't surprise me if it was an American influence, I think physical size is another factor, V8s being reasonably compact for their displacement ?
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Maybe a little off piste but I always thought that the 'balanced engine' hierarchy went something like: Opposed (flat) 4 Straight 6 V12 I'm not sure that V8 is actually one of the more optimal configurations ?
Yes, in theory. However balancer shafts can cancel out unwanted vibrations, so that a well balanced 4 pot can be smoother than a straight six.
The true advantage of adding more cylinders (regardless of configuration) is more firing pulses per cycle, which makes for excellent low down torque and responsiveness plus smooth progress.
And then there's the sounds they can make...
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I have the latest BMW 3l straight six diesel, I am completely converted to the benefits of more firing pulses per cycle, it is smooth, torquey and sounds great when revved.
I rather liked the 5 cylinder Volvo D5 I drove a few years back, again the engine note (with balancer shafts 'cos 5 cylinders aren't well balanced AFIK) was lovely, you often hear petrol V70s (even quite old and humble ones) 'burble' by, really nice.....
I presume that the V8 may not have such a great future as many 6s (or even 4s) can deliver the same power / torque and the trend is towards fewer cylinders with smaller displacements and turbo/super charging for efficiency (less frictional loss with fewer cylinders I guess) ?
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SQ
Yes in theory. However balancer shafts can cancel out unwanted vibrations so that a well balanced 4 pot can be smoother than a straight six.
Your thinking of the ancient Lanchester balancer shaft idea - which did indeed confer smoothness on a basically unsmooth design. Putting two 4 cyclinder engines together [V8] doesn't entirely solve the problem. Multiples of 6 are best.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 11/12/2009 at 12:43
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I'm not a great fan of big injuns really although I've owned a couple of P6 V8's and the last one went quite well with it's SD1 heads.
I think the BMW straight six is an engine with a capital E for excellence.
Even the Dolly Sprint 16v 2ltr engine was a joy (when it ran right) - full of angst and instant acceleration, a V8 would have spoiled it IMO.
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Especially the piece of V8 junk they put in the Triumph Stag!
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Stag 3.0 V8 sounds beautiful - correct placement of the water pump, and not using a single 6 foot long chain to run both cams would have sorted it but BL ......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=phlr6S6Xyv4
Edited by Lygonos on 11/12/2009 at 14:03
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Went to the USA earlier this year and had a 12 seater van to get us round. The van was a Ford E350 with a 5.5 V8 engine with approx 250 bhp. Not the fastest V8 in the world and in the UK where we are used to Transit vans with diesel engines it was strange to get a big petrol powered van. However it made a lovely V8 bellow when revved hard and coped superbly taking 12 people and their luggage on the hills towards LA. Yes it was heavy on fuel but that was to be expected and besides it was the first V8 engined vehicle I had driven and I enjoyed it. I would not say the V8 is stupid or silly, its been a part of vehicle engineering for years but with advances in technology and a change in attitude manufacturers are starting to move away from them. A shame really, the V8 is a vehicle design classic. If only I had the means to run a V8 powered car!
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with advances in technology and a change in attitude manufacturers are starting to move away from them. A shame really the V8 is a vehicle design classic. If only I had the means to run a V8 powered car!
I do appreciate the sentiment here. Steam engines are also thought by some people to make a nice noise. Steam cars persisted into the 1920s before they finally died out.
I contend that the V8 is now also an anachronism.
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Stag 3.0 V8 sounds beautiful - correct placement of the water pump and not using a single 6 foot long chain to run both cams would have sorted it but
Not true. When I owned one it had two separate chains, one for each cam.
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>>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=phlr6S6Xyv4 <<<
Nice one fella, I've tuned a few of them in my time!
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>I contend that the V8 is now also an anachronism.<
Maybe it is but thank heavens we can still please ourselves (just) and don't feel we all have to buzz around in three-cylinder puddlejumpers.
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I always wanted a Sunbeam Tiger after I saw one leave two black lines on road.
Nothing like sound of a real (US) V8
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On the Discovery channel those car programs in the Usa on turbo channel all seem to use v8 mopar engines big juicy 5.8 ltr noisey monsters & bigger.
Thank goodness they don't fit a 1.3 16v fuel injected catalitic converter modern design rubbish engine that we have to use!
The future won't be v8 petrol in the uk but there is nowt wrong with them sweet music.
Edited by Webmaster on 12/12/2009 at 23:58
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