Hi
Without opening the debate on attention to detail and all that. My sister has just bought a car privately, she then immediately took it in for service where she was told that all four tyres are illegal!!! Does she have any rights to fall back on with the private seller?
Made make/model non-specific.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 14/11/2009 at 15:11
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No she dont. She needs a slap for buying it without checking tho. Had it been a dealer it would have been different.
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+1
Tyres are visible and very easy to check, no excuses.
Edited by Pugugly on 13/11/2009 at 20:42
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From the OP
Without opening the debate on attention to detail and all that
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I'm certainly not the expert on the subject round here but I thought that even for a private sale a car had to be roadworthy from a legal standpoint unless sold as 'spares or repair'
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Many people do not properly understand when a tyre becomes illegal - those selling tyres especially. You could always run it in for an MOT to get the definitive answer, might be a good idea anyway if the car has not been well maintained.
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From the OP Without opening the debate on attention to detail and all that
Buying anything is about attention to detail let alone a secondhand car.
Is everything else OK?
HPI?
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Everything else is fine.
Had a nissan dealer service to keep up the full history. Used car expert vehicle check was fine. In fact everything else was done well, printed off the check list and checked all known issues. It is just on the service print out it says 4 illegal tyres!!! and lecture from servicfe manager that it equates to 12 points and a ban.
But from your replies it appears therer is no re-course. Thats bad.
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Used car expert vehicle check was fine.
If someone else checked the tyres and thought they were OK then my money would be on the dealer exaggerating the situation.
lecture from servicfe manager that it equates to 12 points and a ban.
That's not true either - it's treated as one offence so normally only attracts one set of points. Even the guy who killed the cyclists in N Wales only got 6 points and £180 fine and he was charged with having 3 defective tyres.
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just stick some tyres on it and take it as a lesson.
Edited by nick1975 on 13/11/2009 at 21:08
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It can't have any faults which the seller should reasonably have known existed. Equally, it can have faults which the buyer can reasonably be expected to have noticed.
If the car had of been inspected by a mechanic or suchlike, then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but as it was not, you have a very small leg to stand on.
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The place doing the service could have a biased opinion, if they're likely to sell four new tyres.
Edited by bathtub tom {p} on 13/11/2009 at 21:20
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she was told that all four tyres are illegal
Did I miss the description of what made these illegal? Wrong size? Tread depth? etc.
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It was tread depth, at its worsed quoted as being 1mm
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It was tread depth at its worsed quoted as being 1mm
What really matters is the central 3/4 of the tyre, which needs to be 1.6mm. The outer edges can be less 1mm, providing the tread pattern is still visible. Some cars wear tyres heavily on the edges, or if driven hard on corners can cause this.
It sounds like the tyres are certainly past their best though.
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If they are that worn then I can't see how your sister missed them. Even my mum would have noticed that. I am sure there is some law that a private person selling a car must sell it as word worthy, somebody on here once did it was ilegal to see a car which is not road worthy but I am not sure.
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If it was worn tyres, then I can see how it could be argued as being "sold as seen". 1mm of tread depth is very low with 1.6mm being the legal minimum across the centre part of the tyre. Even fleet managed cars replace them before 1.6mm - I know because I keep going back.
If the rest of the car is fine then I'd put this down to experience, replace them and move on. It might be a few hundred pounds but then you know they are okay for a while. If they were 1.6mm then they would have been legal but needed replacing anyway.
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It is the bigger picture which would bother me. Tyres are not that expensive (depending on the car) but if the owner has let them get into this state then what things have been neglected :(.
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well when it was first posted it was one of those suzuki type look at me cheap poser mobiles and the tyres aint cheap for these because they are bigger than houses
however this has now gone so if its metamorphosed into a 1961 mini think 450x10 and its disgusting as these tyres are 4/6 each
ok?
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suzuki type look at me cheap poser mobiles
It was a MK2 Honda CRV actually.
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Does she have any rights to fall back on with the private seller? >>
The following should be of interest:
In simpler language:
www.salford.gov.uk/unroadworthy-vehicles.htm
It is a criminal offence to supply, sell, offer to supply, offer to sell or expose for sale a motor vehicle or trailer which is unroadworthy.
www.warrington.gov.uk/Adviceandbenefits/Tradingsta...x
"If you sell motor vehicles as a trader (or even privately) then the Road Traffic Acts 1988 and 1991 as amended apply to you."
www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880052_en_6#...5
75 Vehicles not to be sold in unroadworthy condition or altered so as to be unroadworthy
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section no person shall supply a motor vehicle or trailer in an unroadworthy condition.
www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1991/ukpga_19910040_en_2#...6
16 Supply of unroadworthy vehicles etc
Edited by jbif on 13/11/2009 at 22:26
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I am sure anybody that has ever sold a banger is a criminal then :(
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I am sure anybody that has ever sold a banger is a criminal then :( >>
Yes, the country is full of them, but there is no room in the prisons to lock them up.
p.s. and you said knew all these laws when you sold your last banger. ;-)
Edited by jbif on 13/11/2009 at 22:33
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ever sold a banger is a criminal then :(
You're forgetting the toerags who bought them Rattle...
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Did I commit a criminal offence probably yes. However I sold the car for spairs or repairs. I mentioned every single defect with the car some of which the MOT man said was in still in the allowed tolerances to pass the MOT. He told me the car wasn't dangerous as it was but would not pass an MOT. I wonder what the law would make about that? In this case it needed welding and the brake pipes needed replacing but were not leaking.
I bought my car complete with a brand new MOT complete with a broken rear spring.
I just find the trading standards statement far too vague to actually have any real meaning. I have made threads in the past about what is meant by roadworthy. Clearly in this case though with ilegal tyres it is obvious that it is unroadworthy.
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Thanks for all the responses. I will let you know how I get on.
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All the best trying to sort this. But if the tyres were worn (how old is the car?) then your sister probably has nothing she can do apart form replace the tyres.
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If I was in your position I might try appealing to the seller's good nature, and ask him/her to go halves in a new set of tyres. Beyond that I don't think you can demand any reparations - tyres are a well-known and easily checked wear-and-tear item. If you feel you paid under the odds, then maybe the price was fair 'as is' ?
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There's a big difference between unroadworthy in the legal sense, and selling a wreck though, isn't there? Blocked radiator, knackered head gasket, big ends knocking, there's loads of ways a car can be sold as a money pit banger without it actually being unroadworthy; which in this context means, I assume, MOT passable.
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Good summary at www.birmingham.gov.uk/tradingstandards
see under "vehicle complaints:
"Trading Standards - Unroadworthy Vehicles
This page gives information about the Road Traffic Act 1988. It is an offence to supply an unroadworthy vehicle.
WHO DOES THE ACT AFFECT?
Any person who supplies a motor vehicle, whether privately or in the course of their business.
'Supply' includes selling, displaying for sale and hiring.
If a vehicle is unroadworthy, the sale is illegal, whether it takes place at a private house, a garage or at a motor auction
WHAT IS UNROADWORTHY?
A vehicle is unroadworthy if:
its brakes, steering, tyres, construction or equipment do not meet statutory standards; or
- its use on the road would present a danger of injury to any person; or
- it is dangerous due to structural corrosion.
HOW TO CHECK WHETHER A VEHICLE IS UNROADWORTHY
If you have any doubts about whether a vehicle is roadworthy, it must be examined by a competent person.
Do not offer the vehicle for sale until you are sure it is roadworthy.
Remember, having a current MOT certificate does not prove a vehicle is roadworthy.
Edited by jbif on 13/11/2009 at 22:39
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I must write to Birmingham Trading Standards then to get them to remove most the ebay car adverts.
Edited by rtj70 on 13/11/2009 at 22:46
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I must write to Birmingham Trading Standards then to get them to remove most the
ebay car adds. >>
Make sure you do that now, while you have some spare time in your swine flu rest period. ;-) I think they will welcome your input.
b.t.w. - What are adds?
Edited by jbif on 13/11/2009 at 22:46
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And all the dodgy car traders in Birmingham will come and hunt me down....
Given that most cars fail the MOT every year surely it means most second cars are sold illegally?
I am just not understanding this law at all.
Edited by Rattle on 13/11/2009 at 22:54
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Given that most cars fail the MOT every year ............
"Most" cars?
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Given that most cars fail the MOT every year surely it means most second cars are sold illegally?
>>>
what?
its hardly einstein stuff to check a car prior to sale and or mot and bring up to spec .
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We all know a lot of more dodgy traders don't bother, they just sell them on the road side from auction as is, and a lot of private sellers sell their cars because they know it won't see the another MOT certificate.
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We all know a lot of more dodgy traders don't bother ............
"We all"? There aren't any dodgy traders in my circle of acquaintances.
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Given that most cars fail the MOT every year surely it means most second cars are sold illegally? >> We all know a lot of more dodgy traders don't bother, >>
most? all? every? surely?
You must live in the broken Britain part of the country then, where the stats you quote are at the extreme end of the bell [boy?] curve.
Edited by jbif on 13/11/2009 at 23:09
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But tyres are very easy to check. I used to spot (visually) problems with colleagues company car tyres just walking past. Less than 1.6mm is easy to spot. I'd do this without thinking - it woulds just flag as wrong in my mind.
I occasionally (carefully) do similar at the supermarket. And tell people about light bulbs out too. Probably ignored. Although when I told someone they could get a fine for the bulb being out she was surprised.
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But tyres are very easy to check. >>
rtj70:
The OP said "Without opening the debate on attention to detail and all that. "
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jbif you are right. And therefore without attention to detail the OP's sister bought a car with tyres that need replacing. Bought as seen. No legal comeback?
We could all come up with analogies but the bottom line is a car was purchased. That car needed new tyres. Had they got an AA/RAC type check they would know the tyres were low in tread.
Therefore if there is no more to add.... should we all stop offering advice? Nothing much more can be added.
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Bought as seen. No legal comeback? >>
Read the Road Traffic Acts [links posted by me earlier], and the simplified guidance by local authorities. eg Birmingham guidance says:
"Make it clear in advertisements that the vehicle is unroadworthy and is being sold for spare parts or repairs.
Display the vehicle separately and mark it 'unroadworthy'.
Ask the buyer to sign an acknowledgement that the car is unroadworthy and itemise all known faults and is being purchased for 'spares or repairs'.
Write 'Unroadworthy - sold for spares or repairs - not for use on the road' across the sales invoice.
Give the buyer a copy of each of these documents.
Do not hand over any paperwork which suggests that the vehicle is roadworthy, e.g. current MOT certificate or current tax disc.
Make sure that the buyer does not drive away an unroadworthy vehicle. It should be collected or delivered, on a trailer.
Any other person who supplies an unroadworthy vehicle should follow the above guidelines as far as possible.
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>> But tyres are very easy to check. >> rtj70: The OP said "Without opening the debate on attention to detail and all that. "
> i find this thread interesting if its opened up though
theres the knows and the dont knows and the dont cares
for interest ive been through enough recessions now to give a resume
more people are driving on canvas again than is right
why do they get away with it?
because there arent enough police roadside checks and they the punters/ customers/ your next door neighbour simply arent interested that bits of knobbly rubber on the corners of cars might save their lives as they drive up my rear on a wet friday evening and then declare "oooh my brakes failed" when in fact they are saying,i cant afford the mortgage,the fridge is bare and tyres are below the pinot grigio in my desires of life
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I don't know what is worse.
The person who sold this vehicle 'as seen' or the person who bought it and presumably drove it home on a public highway!
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I don't usually tell them RTJ unless i spot a bulge or serious defect, those who want to run baldies would probably punch me lights out, but i similarly spot bald tyres without really trying.
It never ceases to amaze me just how many cars are running round on bald tyres, i see dozens in the course of a week from following them, as the tyre rotates the tread depth becomes quite visible on most patterns.
Thats from the height of a truck cab for goodness sake, if we still had police patrols they'd be writing tickets all day.
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It never ceases to amaze me just how many cars are running round on bald tyres
Quite GB! Colleagues in fully managed company cars were surprised in the past when I told them they needed new tyres too! But they phoned the relevant number(s) and said thanks.
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I think the real hidden killer with tyres is tyre age (e.g more than 6 years old) and cuts and or side-wall damage.
I just have a simple rule if I don't know how old the tyre is replace it.
My ditch finder has now gone down to 2.5mm so its getting replaced, meant do it this week but didn't get the chance for obvious reasons.
I still cannot understand why people think its ok to drive with illegal tyres they stand out a mile how do they miss them? It is even part of the driving test :(
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I don't think it's a criminal offence to advertise and sell an unroadworthy car......where would that leave th3e guy selling a dismantled Austin 7, say.
Would I been thrown in jail ? I have currently for sale an unroadworthy van....37 yrs old and needing a lot of welding. I think it boils down to intent on the sellers part. I also think one man's 1mm is another man's 1.6mm...difficult to assess all 4 tyres to that difference., I don't think my electronic vernier depth gauge, let alone a plunger type one could measure .6mm.
If she likes the car, get 4 tyres and move on. The exhaust may fail next week, or a bulb might blow. Who knows? I've recently bought a car off a main dealer. It had a worn front tyre. They promised to replace it. It never happened ( neither did the half tank of fuel )
I wasn't bothered, they only want your money. Bought my own tyre at £80 and all's well now.
Ted
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Exactly Ted the law doesn't really make any sense. But that old blue Fiesta you saw at the MOT station I sold it so that makes me a big fat criminal. I did point out all the faults and mentioned in my opinion it is not road worthy so I don't see what I did was illegal but apparently it is.
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What on earth is the matter with people these days?
They buy a second-hand car privately, perhaps a cheap one, without bothering to look at the state of the tyres. What choice do they have, when someone tells them the tyres are illegal - can't help wondering whether that information was strictly accurate - but to replace them all at their own expense? None whatsoever. They learn two or three valuable lessons all at once.
Modern life is more and more like being in a nursery full of squalling idiotic brats.
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Bought a car from a dealer once;tyres were legal but well worn-told him I 'd only buy it it if the tyres were replaced-they were,he just swapped the wheels with the car standing next to it in the showroom.I was happy,he was happy,don't know about the person who bought the other car.
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My rule of thumb with private purchase is that I would only consider (and then in extreme circumstances) going back to the seller if a specific statement was untrue.... for example they'd claimed all four tyres were new last month. If you want the assurance that everything you don't check will be OK anyway then obviously buying from the Nissan dealers is the answer.
Secondly regarding the actual tyre condition I would take it to an independent type place or get a tyre depth gauge and measure across the tread.
If they really are *illegal* then she should replace them at her cost and put it down to life experience.
When buying used from anything other than a main dealer you should always leave £200-£500 in the kitty for the inevitable repairs.
Edited by M.M on 14/11/2009 at 10:14
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It's legal to sell all sorts of things which are illegal to use.
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Without looking at the complex legalities of private sales and what is legal or not, I would say that if the purchaser of the car wasn't savvy enough to check that the tyres were in a servicable state prior to agreeing to purchase the car then that is their problem.
In a private sale is it not a case of 'buyer beware' and you have to accept that you are responsible for checking the condition of the car over before doing the deal on it? Obviously if you buy from a motor dealer then the motor dealer takes over some of the responsibility of ensuring that they are selling a roadworthy vehicle with no undeclared known defects. Obviously buying from a dealer attracts a premium price over a private sale but that you do take your chances somewhat with a private sale.
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Basically, whether private or dealer, it is ILLEGAL to sell an UNROADWORTHY car.
Unless... you declare at the point of advertising, and on any receipt, that the vehicle is unroadworthy and not to be driven without repair, or is being sold as scrap/spare parts.
The law is actually fairly clear on this.
I assume the seller may risk "aiding and abetting" charges re. illegal tyres/defective brakes/etc. on a car he has just sold.
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It's pointless arguing about whether the law does or does not apply in this case. You will have extreme difficulty establishing any case, and it just isn't worth it if this is all that is wrong with the car.
The fundamental question is, given that it needs a new set of tyres, are you happy with what you have got for your money? Leave aside what you might have got, or the bit you might have been able to knock off the price if you had spotted the tyres, are you, overall, happy with the car at its final cost?
All sorts of other "might have beens" are just not worth speculating over. Supposing the seller had himself pointed out that the tyres were very worn, possibly borderline legal, but his price reflected that, would you have been happy with the price?
With any car I have ever bought, I have found some things worse, some better than I expected. I always buy them to keep, so it is the overall cost over the period of ownership that matters. You will need tyres at some time - tyres now or tyres future really isn't significant in the long term scheme of things.
The only important thing is to replace them before you have an accident or get stopped by the police. Then move on.
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In a private sale, although the act of selling an unroadworthy car is itself illegal (and thus prosecutable by the Police), I don't think you would have a case to get the car made roadworthy by the seller (a civil matter).
This is dependent upon the seller having 'misrepresented' the vehicle. Omitting to mention bald tyres is not misrepresenting.
The Law is a hoot, isn't it ?
Edited by Lygonos on 14/11/2009 at 11:41
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What kind of a car is this again?
Bellboy thought it was a Suzuki, Pugugly said Honda and OP said he's had it serviced by a Nissan dealer to keep up the full service history.
???
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It's not important but it is a CRV (was on original post)
(I have a CRV and it is very easy to see the tyre tread without even looking with the raised wheelarches!)
Edited by Lygonos on 14/11/2009 at 12:16
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Yeah.
And you take a Honda to a Nissan dealer to keep up the full service history?
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