I was crossing over a dual carriageway today, and happened to pick the right lane (which is for both straight on and turning right) and got stuck in the central reservation area, behind a car that was turning right (I wanted to go straight on). Traffic in the left lane was all going straight on and eventually stopped when the lights changed.
There were two sets of traffic lights in front of me, one on the reservation and one on the exit from the dual carriageway.
The picture shows the junction and I have circled the lights. In the picture I would have been the white car in the centre, waiting behind the silver car that is turning right.
www.flickr.com/photos/43786777@N06/4035047389/size.../
The photo below shows more of the junction:
www.flickr.com/photos/43786777@N06/4035046587/size.../
The problem was that the lights I have circled were not showing any lights (I don't know if the green was switched off or whether it was completely covered by the "blind" over it). So after the traffic on the left had stopped and the car infront turned right I had no indication that I could cross the box junction and exit the carriageway.
I basically just proceeded with caution and got across the carriageway, however on the exit a couple of people were walking their bikes across, and seemed angered by the fact that I was coming towards them and had to hurry across (of course I slowed down, so there was no actual risk).
The lack of lights and the fact that the pedestrians seemed to think that they had right of way made me very worried, so I later went back to the junction (with camera in hand).
It turns out that the lights were working but that they were just not displaying the green. So a few seconds after the light before the central reservation turns red (stopping the traffic moving onto/over the reservation) the lights I have circled turn amber and then red.
So, I think that I was OK and that the pedestrians had just seen the left lane stop moving, assumed it was clear and started crossing, not realising that the right lane was an ahead lane also.
Does the above sound correct? Why would the green light be somehow disabled?
I have asked around at work, but the only explanation provided was that kids had vandalised the light by closing the "blinds". Seem a bit unlikely to me, but not impossible.
Any help in understanding this would be very appreciated.
Edited by SteelSpark on 22/10/2009 at 23:38
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I've looked at the photos and it's taken me 10 minutes of headscratching to make sense of it. Not the fraction of a second drivers have. Unfortunately the sign on the left shows there has been a fatal accident here, maybe caused by confusion.
I believe you are supposed to treat each half as a separate traffic light controlled junction. If you were the white car in the first photo and the lights turned to red you should have stayed in the "reservation area" and not continued against the red light over the junction.
Unfortunately the biggest clue to this is the stop line on the road which unfortunately is barely visible in either photo.
Maybe a call to the highway authority would prevent further accidents.
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I believe you are supposed to treat each half as a separate traffic light controlled junction. If you were the white car in the first photo and the lights turned to red you should have stayed in the "reservation area" and not continued against the red light over the junction.
Thanks old crocks, yes I believe you are correct about treating it as a separate junction. The only thing that was confusing me is that the lights controlling the second half of the junction do not show green (only red and amber) so when the light is green it basically appears that the lights aren't working.
Any idea why they wouldn't show a green (it is exactly the same on the lights for traffic in the opposite direction).
As for the fatal crash, I don't believe it was caused by these lights, in fact I believe it occured on the dual carriageway running left to right in the photos (in front of the pub you can see in the top right of the photos). It was a hit and run, the driver jumping a red on the dual carriageway and killing an elderly man on the pedestrian crossing at 3am on Saturday. The only good news is that the managed to track the driver down.
Thanks again for your help.
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I believe you should be able to see the green when at the second set of lights (ie on the reservation). Maybe the shutters have been tampered with. This would allow, under certain circumstances, the traffic on the reservation to be shown a (shuttered) green and released without the traffic at the first (primary) lights from seeing the green and moving off against their red light.
From what I can see in the photos I am having trouble thinking when this scenario would apply but maybe you can from local knowledge.
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I believe you should be able to see the green when at the second set of lights (ie on the reservation). Maybe the shutters have been tampered with. This would allow under certain circumstances the traffic on the reservation to be shown a (shuttered) green and released without the traffic at the first (primary) lights from seeing the green and moving off against their red light. From what I can see in the photos I am having trouble thinking when this scenario would apply but maybe you can from local knowledge.
Yes, I guess that could fit in this situation, to prevent people starting to cross over the first half of the dual carriageway, but giving some extra time to the people on the central reservation to turn right or cross the second half of the carriageway.
As you can see in the first photo there is a red light stopping traffic from crossing to the central reservation, but traffic can still leave the central reservation.
The shutters were definitely fully closed, rather than just angled to only be visible to people on the reservation, so perhaps vandalism/tampering is the answer.
I just wondered if there could be another answer as to why they might legitimately be closed. Perhaps the idea is enable people to leave the central reservation, but that they completely hide the light rather than shutter it slightly. However, that would not seem right, because once you have had to stop on the central reservation you have no cue (except for the absence of any lights) that you can proceed.
Thanks again.
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This is in my manor. It's the North Circular Road and Green Lanes. The pictures are a tad misleading, IMHO. On the ground, I've never had a problem negotiating these lights. When you are actually there it seems obvious. It's just a staggered junction.
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This is in my manor. It's the North Circular Road and Green Lanes. The pictures are a tad misleading IMHO. On the ground I've never had a problem negotiating these lights. When you are actually there it seems obvious. It's just a staggered junction.
Thanks LDO. Are those lights always like that (i.e. do they always only ever show amber and red), or is something amiss with them today?
I think that it becomes more of a problem if you are held up in the right hand lane, because then I could not tell whether there was a green light (I'll know in future of course, because now I know that the green is covered, so if there is no amber or red, the light is green - but it was not obvious without that piece of information).
If the green is never shown (rather than just being obscured today), do you have any thoughts on why (especially with your local knowledge)?
Thanks for your help.
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They DO show green SS, but not for long! Extreme priority is given to cars going across the junction on the North Circular. The view that we see in the photos is looking North up Green Lanes.
I often come from the opposite direction and turn right onto the North Circular. Usually, only a couple of cars make it through the lights before they turn red again.
You have rightly observed that it is a problem seeing the green light if you are in the right-hand lane. It doesn't seem to bother most Londoners though, just sensible drivers from out of town.
Traffic lights in London are not absolute rules - they are just the basis for negotiations.
This area is a bit of a mess, as you no doubt observed. You might have wondered why, it you turn RIGHT at these lights then you enter a three-lane urban clearway. Whereas if you turn LEFT, you enter a single-carriageway.
Well, the whole road was slated for redevelopment, just as chunks of the North Circular already had been. Unfortunately, Mr Livingston (the non-driver) got elected as Mayor, and he cancelled the road improvements.
All of the houses which had been compulsorily purchased, and left derelict were done up again, and re-occupied. I won't say any more because it gets political, and that's boring.
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I'm now convinced they have been tampered with. If they didn't want to show a green they wouldn't go to the trouble of putting one in and then covering it.
A virtual drive through the junction on Google Streetview may give more clues. I can see it is on the A406 but don't know which junction.
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I was composing my last post while LDO was posting. Now I know where it is I have had a look at Google and believe what I said still stands.
Just put it down to experience and continue your diligent approach to driving.
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I'm now convinced they have been tampered with. If they didn't want to show a green they wouldn't go to the trouble of putting one in and then covering it. A virtual drive through the junction on Google Streetview may give more clues. I can see it is on the A406 but don't know which junction.
This is the junction in street view:
maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.612447,-0.109649&sp...5
The picture is a bit old and the lights in the central reservation are missing (you can see the pole, with no light box on top).
The lights on the far side of the junction are visible and do not seem to be displaying any light although it may just be that they don't show up well on the images.
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Surely once you have passed a green light you in effect have permission to continue as long as the road is clear. You don't have to wait while making guesses about what some other invisible light might be showing.
The rule at the box junction is that you can enter it if your exit is clear. If it isn't, you shouldn't enter it even if there is a green light (or what you assume to be a non-working green light)
The pedestrians do have priority. They are traffic going straight on, you are traffic making a turn so have to give way (as you did, of course). They would only not have priority if they had ignored their own pedestrian Don't Cross lights.
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Surely once you have passed a green light you in effect have permission to continue as long as the road is clear. You don't have to wait while making guesses about what some other invisible light might be showing.
I think you are right but the problem is if you get in the right lane and are held up by a vehicle turning right.
The rule at the box junction is that you can enter it if your exit is clear. If it isn't you shouldn't enter it even if there is a green light (or what you assume to be a non-working green light)
In this case there are two box junctions on the dual carriageway but they do not cover the central reservation, so you can get onto it and wait there.
The pedestrians do have priority. They are traffic going straight on you are traffic making a turn so have to give way (as you did of course). They would only not have priority if they had ignored their own pedestrian Don't Cross lights.
In this case I wasn't making a turn I just could held up behind the vehicle that was making a turn. I am pretty sure that they did not have a green signal, otherwise the signal on the exit would have been red (it was actually nothing, so I assume that it was green).
I am absolutely certain that the green lights don't show (because I went back to the junction as a pedestrian, and watched them for over 10 minutes, from various vantage point). The red and amber show very clearly, but no green. It seems that this is always the case, according to LDO, perhaps it is so that cars that have not entered the reservation don't see a green further on and assume they can go, but it does make it a little unclear if you are going ahead but are temporarily stuck in the central reservation.
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The first photograph shows that the light before the circled two is at red. Perhaps when you've passed the first light you are allowed to continue at your discretion when the first light turns to red. If all three displayed red together it might confuse drivers who have already passed the first light.
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The first photograph shows that the light before the circled two is at red. Perhaps when you've passed the first light you are allowed to continue at your discretion when the first light turns to red. If all three displayed red together it might confuse drivers who have already passed the first light.
Yes, I think that is right although I think it is more the case that showing red at the first set and then green at the second and third set might confuse the drivers that have not reached th first set.
The second and third sets do show amber and red when they need to, so the sequence is:
1) First set show green, second and third sets show nothing
2) First set turns amber then red, second and third sets show nothing
3) A few seconds later the second and third sets turn amber then red
So this lets the people on the central reservation turn right or go straight on, while holding the people at the first set of lights.
Again, I reckon this is so that a green on the second and third sets does not influence people at the first set.
Once you know what is going on its fine, but just the first time you have to cross the carriageway with no lights is a bit nerve wracking, especially with pedestrians crossing the exit (I guess they saw the traffic stop and assumed it was safe, just not taking into account that I might be going ahead rather than right).
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Sorry, yes, I misread your point about the pedestrians, as you were going straight on.
So they too were misled/confused into making assumptions about lights they couldn't see.
There is a slightly similar ambiguity at ordinary junction lights. You want to turn right, the lights turn green, you pull forward ready just waiting for a few cars to clear out of the way, and partly turn ready to move into the turning. At that point you have passed "your" green light and are now facing a red light. But an instant's thought tells you to ignore that - although it is facing you, it is meant for someone coming from somewhere else, not you.
Or perhaps you were going straight on, and passed the first light on green but were then suddenly held up by a crowd of jay walkers, a very slow lorry negotiating a turn, a red-light jumper, etc. You wait in the middle, then the lights change to red.
You don't have to stay stuck in the middle blocking the junction, you can proceed cautiously on your way against the second red light. You have in effect been given permission to proceed by the first light, and that cannot be countermanded by the second.
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