My car has done 77000 miles and it's year 2003 and it's value is the following:
Dealer: £2,130
Private :£1,820
Part exchange:£1,775
Trade: £1,655
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..variable valve timing hub siezed up...
Of course, there's no chance of someone with a bit of mechanical nous trying to free said hub, is there?
Nope, yank it off, chuck it away, and off to the parts department for a new one.
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To be fair, ifithelps, some components have to be binned when they fail.
What I don't know is whether this hub is one of them. Complex, unrepairable, highly-stressed components of this sort are all very well when all they do is make engines run better and more economically. When they make thrashing noises and fail, though, they are reversing all their good work and making a nuisance of themselves.
I spent a little time a few years ago deciphering from an Italian text, hideously mistranslated by some irresponsible South African, the mechanism of Porsche flat-six VVT and VVO systems. Looked to me so Heath Robinson that even Porsche would be stretched to get away with it over a high mileage without very expensive rebuilds, even after the company imported some Japanese engineers to improve its manufacturing quality. At Almera prices, perhaps someone is stretching a point a bit.
Does anyone know though? It's interesting.
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I have no experience at all as a mechanic, but the thing that puzzles me here is the £830 which the OP has been quoted for this VVT hub.
A complete new engine might cost say £4,000 ... so it doesn't make sense that one small part of it could cost 20% of that. I don't know how much labour is involved, but presumably some of the dismantling will already have been to get at the cam chain. It's an old trick to charge full dismantling and reassembly costs for two jobs in which the dismantling actually overlaps.
According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_QG_engine the Almera engine uses Nissan N-CVT (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-VCT ), which adjusts the camshaft. I'm no mechanic, but that implies to me something which doesn't even require removing the cylinder head. Does anyone with some mechanical knowledge know anything about how much work is involved?
If it was my car, I'd want to know a lot more about that £830. How much is for the part? And exactly how many hours labour are they charging for this, at what rate?
It might be a good idea to seek some other quotes.
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It might be a good idea to seek some other quotes.
Sound advice there from NW. The garage may just possibly be extracting it. Worth checking unless you know and trust the garage.
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My '53 reg Almera's got what looks like a solenoid inside the cam cover at the filler end (there's a plug connection) that I presume is the VVT.
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I used to be in the motor trade, but these day's I only lift the bonnet to look for the neighbours cat so, a few years back Mr's perro's Clio developed a bad misfire & running on 3 cylinders, so I phoned the Pain dealer where I always had it serviced and was told they couldn't look at the car until after xmas!
So, I took it to an independent that came well recommended but - they couldn't find the fault so, after xmas I took it to the Pain dealer, they fitted a new sparkplug coil unit & charged me over a ton (haha!)
So, the moral of this story is ... some independent garages haven't a clue what they are doing - especially with todays multi valved variable valve timing units.
btw, a kyd could have changed my coil pack - with one hand tied behind his back!
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some independent garages haven't a clue whatthey are doing -
Quite true, but some know exactly what they are doing and make a good living by fixing the faulty item after numerous dealer visits to have perfectly good parts changed...one of them is my wise and trusted MB indy.
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>>>one of them is my wise and trusted MB indy<<<
Oh yes, there are good independents out there - my neighbour is one of them too!
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The OP was told by me to go to a proper garage not a fast fit place geared to doing brakes and exhausts
he didnt listen
so no comment
i will add that i didnt realise it had the variable cam adjuster on an almero though (or has it?)
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You're an Almera fan, aren't you perro?
Did they all have engines with VVT?
Edit: bellboy beat me to it by a second or so.
Edited by Optimist on 09/09/2009 at 23:23
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>>>You're an Almera fan, aren't you perro?<<<
Well, I wouldn't go that far! I have one, I've had it for 2.5 years, I occasionally sing their praises - so I must be some sort of fan ... NowWheels posted this ~ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_QG_engine
So yes, they all have VVT.
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That price sounds very cheap to change the timing chain. Does it include sprockets and tensioner?
If the VVT gubbins is seized, I can't see it affecting the wear of the chain. All it does is vary the position of the camshaft relative to the drive sprocket. If it is seized, you'll just lose the advantages (economy and performance) of the VVT.
I'd ask whoever's fitting it to prove their diagnosis by showing the new one working against the old one not.
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>>That price sounds very cheap to change the timing chain. Does it include sprockets >>and tensioner?
Yes, it includes everything. The quote involves 4 hrs, but they got back to me since and they said it takes 10hrs but they'd honour their quote.
If the VVT gubbins is seized I can't see it affecting the wear of the chain. All it does is vary the position of the camshaft relative to the drive sprocket. If it is seized you'll just lose the advantages (economy and performance) of the VVT. I'd ask whoever's fitting it to prove their diagnosis by showing the new one working against the old one not.
I think when they fitted the new chain (They said it was all over the place), and were trying to put everything back they notice it wasn't moving. I havent' seen it myslef.
Does that mean I can ask them to put the old one back if I'm just going to lose the advantages?
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I had a look at the wikipedia article and it seems fairly clear to me that the N16 Almera (00-06) had a 1.8 engine with VVT and so the hub OP is worried about, but the 1.5 didn't so no hub to worry about.
OP hasn't said which engine he's on about. Is it the 1.8?
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My car is:
2003 Nissan Almera S, hatch back, 3 doors
Engine capacity: 1497cc
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The Wiki item says:
"The QG engine is a 1.3 L, 1.5 L, 1.6 L, 1.8 L, and 2.0 L straight-4 piston engine from Nissan. It is a lean-burn aluminum DOHC 4-valve design with variable valve timing"
So, if it's to be believed, all the QG range have VVT, including the 1.5.
If the 1.5 hasn't got VVT, then I'd love to know what the electrical connection goes to in the chain end of the cam cover.
Back to the OP's problem, I'd still like to see them compare a new one with the existing one. I guess it's electrically operated at high revs, so it probably wouldn't do anything unless you can simulate the conditions it operates under.
I doubt if the average driver could tell if it's working or not. I'd put the old one back on a car that age!
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The Wiki item says: "The QG engine is a 1.3 L 1.5 L 1.6 L 1.8 L and 2.0 L straight-4 piston engine from Nissan. It is a lean-burn aluminum DOHC 4-valve design with variable valve timing"
SQ
I took my car to Nationwide Autocentre becase they were recommended by the AA but I don't think they replaced a Timing Chain before, not on an Almera anyway.
The mechanic I spoke to said the "variable valve timing hub" ceased up, when I spoke to Nissan garage the said they never heard of one stopped working before. This agrees with what you said the fact it doesn't move unless operated at high revs.
Am I right is saying you can't move its parts by hand?
I doubt if the average driver could tell if it's working or not. I'd put the old one back on a car that age!
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 10/09/2009 at 13:44
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Was going to post again but saw bathtub tom's post.
Edited by Optimist on 10/09/2009 at 12:09
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Now, I really think it's the mechanic at Nationwide autocentre didn't have experience with timing chains and looked at the part and when it didn't move he guessed it wasn't working.
Are there any tests that can be done to prove it's working before putting it back in the car?
Does everyone agree I should ask the mechanic to put the old one back?
Really appreciate your help & advice.
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Gave Nissan a call they refused to give any information about the part saying they don't disclose that type of info over the phone.
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There's at least one online forum for Almera owners - www.almeraownersclub.com - could try asking there.
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Nationwide autocentre saying now I have to pay for the part even I didn't want it as it's coming from Europe.
Should the part have been taken out in the first place?
Please advice me.
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If they incorrectly diagnosed the part as faulty through their lack of expertise, then that's their problem, not yours.
I think it looks like you should now be getting expert consumer advice, Citizens Advice Bureau, trading standards, somewhere like that.
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I asked them to cancel the order.
But they are saying they can't put the part "vvt" back it doesn't turn. Does this make sense to anyone?
Should they have taken it out in the first palce?
Nissan said they wouldn't put it back for me as it makes them liable for any damages.
Any advice is welcome.
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Any advice is welcome.
> my advise is read what people put if you are asking
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?m=902295...e
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Some more info:
The part I'm talking about is "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" which is no 7 in this illustration (1320AU00A):
nissan4u.com/parts/almera_uk_...llustration_2/
I've got a feeling somepeople were giving advice thinking it was the solenoid part which is no 4 in the above illustration(237968UU0V).
I spoke again to the garage and they are saying now that managed to "dismantle it" and lined it up but not sure if it won't lock up in a week or a year! and they won't guarantee their work now.
Still can't understand if they took it off why the can't put it back.
Am i making a mistake by asking them to put the old part back?
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Garage (NAC) just phoned me now and they said the part got shipped and I'll have to pay the cost because I agreed to it verbally.
But I only agreed to it because they said it was faulty.
Don't think I'll be using NAC again.
I don't think my part was faulty but don't think I can prove that.
They said no further work will be done on the car till the bill is paid.
Any advice?
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Any advice?
To be honest, at this point, I think you are in a big mess. It's partly of the garage's making ('cos they don't seem to know what they are doing), but also in large part of yours -- by not going to a garage experienced in this sort of work and (apparently) by not giving clear instructions.
I don't think there's much to do now except pay up, unless you want a very protracted legal battle, with your car out of action in the meantime and no guarantee of winning. It would pain me too to pay that much, but I really don't think you have any other realistic options.
I'm afraid this sounds like one of those lessons-learnt-the-hard-way which we all experience at some stage :(
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She's right you know Nabil. Bell boy says he advised you at the start to go to a garage capable of dealing economically with engine internals. These chain places say they can, and they sort of can, but they will be very hit-or-miss for anything complex, and won't be cheap although they say they are and advertise low labour rates. Going to them for most things can easily turn out to be a false economy. And they are perfectly capable of doing more harm than good to your car.
Any owner of a car that isn't new and under warranty needs to work on finding an honest and competent independent garage or mechanic. In my experience they are as rare as hens' teeth. You have to ask people, friends and neighbours, who are serious about cars and have some idea.
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Some here were doing their best to help & I was trying to make a decision based on that. When I look back I think it was a mistake to take my car to Nationwide Autocentre I really think they are useless.
I'll pay for the part as a last resort but will never use them again.
I realise now they might be capable of replacing windscreen wipers but not capable of any technical jobs.
Does the "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" need to be removed when replacing a stretched "Timing Chain" on a Nissan Almera?
Thank you.
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I'm really puzzled now.
I asked for my old part so that I can get Nissan to verify if it was faulty. Just was planning if I can use old part if it was OK and maybe sell the new one.(I that's very unlikely as the part rarely goes wrong)
All of the sudden now the garage are saying they're putting the old one back and they will not be charging me for the one that they ordered on my behalf!
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>>I asked for my old part
>>All of the sudden now the garage are saying they're putting the old one back and they will not be charging me for the one that they ordered on my behalf!
Oh what a surprise. ;>)
Well done!
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All of the sudden now the garage are saying they're putting the old one back and they will not be charging me for the one that they ordered on my behalf!
Well done!
Pay up, get the car out of there fast ... and then write to trading standards documenting the whole saga. There's something very fishy going on here.
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It sounds to me as though they are replacing the cam sensor. The 1.5 did NOT have VVT, but the cam sensors were a known weak point on all QC engines and were infact subject to a recall.
My brother had his done for £45, and his orginal diagnosis was a stretched chain. All was well after a change of sensor . . . . His was my old 1.8 with VVT
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I've heard others claim the 1.5 didn't have VVT, but the only evidence I've seen is the Wiki item saying they did (if you can believe Wiki).
Some engines did have the crank and cam sensors changed free, but that may appear to have been a sop to the owners to prevent Nissan having to replace the cam chains. I don't believe it was done as a recall.
Stretched cam chains have been well documented on this engine.
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