As one who lives "Up North" it's a rare event when I travel so far down south in my car, but having just come back from a weeks holiday in the Mosel in Germany, I had cause to use the crossing both ways to get to Dover and then back home.
On the way down the M1 we made good time and then on to the M25 and then we hit the tailback of traffic.Crawl, crawl crawl until we saw what was causing the holdup.The Dartford crossing toll charge.
What lunacy is this all about ?
I could not resist Googling the subject, and find that originally the toll was to pay for the bridge, but this was repaid in 2002/3, so why is the toll still present ?
The Government is always spouting it's green credentials but how can miles of stationary traffic in both directions, every day, every week, every year be "Green".
It is absolute stupidity that a main arterial route for business transport, holiday makers and all other users is used to tax people for something that has been paid for already and never mind the amount we pay for infrastructure through all the other motoring taxes.
Contrast that stupiity with the superb road system on the Continent that allows you to drive unhindered from Dunkirk, through Belgium and into Germany.It really opened my eyes to just how bad our road system is in th UK despite the billions relieved from road users.
It's a national disgrace and it makes me quite angry.
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Just been to Edinburgh area for a couple of weeks crossed Forth Road Bridge for free a number of times little traffic hold up as well.
Guess Gordon gives the english taxpayers money to the scottish parliament to have this free crossing so come on Gordon extend it to english crossings as well.
Sorry i will wake up now having a dream about motoring taxes being used for motoring uses.
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Just been to Edinburgh area for a couple of weeks crossed Forth Road Bridge for free a number of times little traffic hold up as well.
Ill have you know thats heavy traffic for us!
I have just returned from London where I was told that traffic was light because of the school holidays, dont want to see it at normal levels!
Edited by Old Navy on 16/08/2009 at 20:16
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Just been to Edinburgh area for a couple of weeks crossed Forth Road Bridge for free a number of times little traffic hold up as well.
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The Scottish Parliament abolished tolls on all road bridges in Scotland - the Forth, Tay, Erskine and Skye all free now - and it hasn't half cut down on congestion. The fuel savings alone made the business case to abolish the tolls (all, except the Skye bridge had been paid off many years before).
Maybe if England had its own parliament, it might do something about the Dartford crossing - Gordon Brown certainly won't do anything (does he do anything?) - he was against abolishing the Scottish Tolls as it was the SNP who suggested it!
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Contrast that stupiity with the superb road system on the Continent that allows you to drive unhindered from Dunkirk, through Belgium and into Germany.
Or compare it with the French autoroutes where you will have to stop to pay substantial amounts of money at the frequent tolls.
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>>Or compare it with the French autoroutes where you will have to stop to pay substantial amounts of money at the frequent tolls
But you don't get the queues.
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CGNorwich
Yes I have driven on French Autoroutes, some with tolls and some without. If you too have used these, you will know that the roads themselves are superb, the rest areas are brilliant and the traffic levels are far below ours.
Also you would know that if you do not want to pay to use the Autoroutes, you can usually use the fine N roads for free.
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I have to say that chunks of the Autobahn were clunky as hell compared to most of our M routes.
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I didn't notice bad roads in my car, just the joints between the bridges/viaducts and the main road.
Even so, the whole driving trip on the continent which was about 370 miles from Dunkirk was just so easy, compared to the nightmare journey from Yorkshire down the M1 and M25.
How people drive around the M25 every day escapes me, and just why do we put up with the Government made bottleneck that is the subject of this post.
I suppose it is just the British way isn't it .
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We are now being told the the charge for using the Dartford Crossing is a "Congestion Charge", would you believe! The jams have got much worse since the charge was increased from the "even" figure of £1.00 to the "uneven" figure of £1.50. This is the car rate that I'm talking about.
Only saving grace is that between the hours of 10.00pm and 6.00am the crossing is now free.
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Its a while since I've driven in industrial/capital city regions of Germany, but its not a jam-free system over there. Even with their higher overall taxes, and investment in transport other than autobahns. www.thelocal.de/national/20090714-20577.html
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I suppose it is just the British way isn't it .
Not really. You've obviously not encountered the ring roads around Brussels or Paris in the rush hour. Give me the M25 any day.
The Dartford crossing would still be a source of delay without the tolls as there is a physical limit as to the rate that traffic can pass through the tunnels or over the bridge. If you want free use the Blackwall Tunnel or the Woolwich Ferry.
There are actually proposals for a new crossing either at the site of the existing crossing
or
Between the Swanscombe Peninsula and the A1089
or
From east of Tilbury to east of Gravesend to the M20.
I wouldn't hold your breath though
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If you want free use the Blackwall Tunnel or the Woolwich Ferry. >>
Or over the bridge on the M25 at Staines.
The truth of the matter is that tolls are only allowed to be abolished is you live North of Watford.
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Well they still charge nearly £3 to cross the Humber Bridge if you want to visit that enchanting northern town of Hull. Never a queue there for some reason
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atleast they have the sense to charge the grockles when they are on their way home out of cornwall at plymouth. i couldn't find the duty free shop on the torpoint ferry, must be downstairs.
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But when I got to Hull to use the ferry I don't need to use the bridge. I come across the M62 from Manchester.
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But when I got to Hull to use the ferry I don't need to use the bridge,
Nobody uses the bridge. Coming from the south its usually just as quick and a lot cheaper to use the M18 via Goole. The Humber Bridge was built for purely political reasons and is a complete white elephant.
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"The Dartford crossing would still be a source of delay without the tolls as there is a physical limit as to the rate that traffic can pass through the tunnels or over the bridge. "
This is a bogus argument.
Lets just get rid of the toll booths and buildings that block the way, reduce the speed limit to 50 mph and I'll wager you will see an end to many mile, 3 lane tailbacks from the north and south.
However you dress it up and try to justify it, this is just another money raising rip off.
The next comment from the politcians is "Well how many hospitals would you like to see closed instead".
Another bogus argument.
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Another broken promise from the labour party it promised in the manifesto in 199? if they came to power they would abolish this toll.I myself use on my way to Dover its an absolute disgrace I find it much quicker to go the other way round the M25 and miss Dartdord altogether.
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Never thought about doing it the other way as Andy says, would it be a lot quicker,less stressing to do that coming south off the M1 on say a weekday at around 2pm as I have a trip coming up down to Dover. Used to use the crossing in the early morning usually around 4am but my days of driving through the night from northern England/Scotland to get a 8am shuttle are gone, too tiring now.
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If you are coming from the western bit of north the M6/M42/M40/M25 anticlockwise may be a better option. I use this route to M25 J10 to access south west London.
Edited by Old Navy on 17/08/2009 at 11:20
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We took a quick trip to south wales on Saturday - no probems at the toll both on the M4 at 08.00 (except for having to part with £5.60) but certainly on this particular crossing they don't need the toll boths to filter down the traffic as the bridge is 3 wide lanes in both directions you could cross unimpeded.
On the way back, at about 16.00 the queue for the tolls were horrendous, I know the M48 was closed, but it still seemed very un-green to force all that traffic to queue to pay again for what we have already been taxed for. We felt very sorry for them as we cruised out of Wales (you only pay on the way in).
On a seperate topic - there's miles of 50MPH limit from the bridge to the far side of Cardiff - what's all that about - there were some road works, but mostly it appeared to be just a restirction for no purpose.
MPZ
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This is a bogus argument.
No it isn't. Every road,bridge or tunnel had a limit to the amount of traffic that can pass through it. The Dartford crossing is the busiest section of road in Europe and its capacity to carry the traffic load without congestion is regularly exceeded. Removing the tolls at peak hours would not make a substantial difference.
The answer to the problem is to build another crossing which is exactly what is proposed.
Whether we should pay tolls at all on our road network is another issue
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But cars slowing down to pay the tolls does not help traffic flow.
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Only if the crossing is not at full capacity. At full capacity it makes no difference
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Jams on Motorways are not a british invention nor are tolls.
On my way to the Italian lakes last year, I hit a huge jam on the autoroute at Strasbourg. 1.5 hours to do 10 miles. And to get thier cost me about 40 euros in tolls.
ON the way back, I hit big jams at nearly every toll on the autostrada north out of Milano.
On the way out of Swtizerland into France their was a HUUUUUUUUUGE taliback going the otherway into switzerland at the border crossing, (which is esentially a toll booth because all they check is your motorway permit has been paid - not fussed about pasport)
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I'm a very infrequent user of the Dartford Crossing but more often than not have been stuck in some horrible queues - in fact my "second worst traffic jam ever" happened there a couple of years back which took me 4 hours to escape. My worst was on the A10 in France approaching tolls some years back.
Not by design, I have happened to go through the crossing recently at 5.57am - it's amazing to see how the previous 3 or 4 miles of motorway turns into Wacky Races with people trying to beat the 6am freebie deadline! They still have the barriers down even though there's no charge.
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The only way to prove that congestion and air pollution would be reduced and efficiency improved would be to remove the tolls for a period. Unlikely anyone would do that as an experiment is it?
BUT
Recently there was a major power failure in the Dartford area (several days in some areas) and for a period of a few hours the tolls were opened up and made free.
Reports in the local press from residents living near the crossing report less noise, fumes and congestion (tailbacks) than normal during this period! I've added a quote at the end of this post
If you look at the bridge (for southbound traffic) there are more lanes over the bridge than there are on the M25 feeding it. The crossing itself is the A282 as it has to handle non-motorway traffic. I cant see why the bridge and its approches are more congested than the approaching M25 if it weren't for the tolls. I don't believe the 50MPH limit would cause significant congestion.
There are 2 tunnels 2 lanes each for northbound traffic . Again this is the equivalent of the approaching M25. I can see this causing some congestion, but again traffic would flow better
I just checked with Google maps - the picture shows congestion going into the tunnels up to the tolls with a huge queueback, and the traffic coming out of the tunnels flowing freely.
The tolls are a major contributing factor to congestion under normal circumstances, under peak traffic the M25 seizes up at many locations anyway. To say that removal of tolls wouldn't be effective at peak hours, as 1 poster argued, is true but not relevant to the argument regarding removal of tolls to reduce congestion.
Here's a quote from a local councillor talking about the power cut
........also says that the power cut demonstrated why the tolls on the Dartford Crossing should be scrapped by ministers.
Cllr Kite said: ?The traffic flowed more free, safe and less polluting than at any time since the promise to scrap the tolls was broken.
?If there is a silver lining to this week?s cloud it is surely that the government can no longer be in any doubt that the congestion, poor health, appalling air quality and lost efficiency caused by the Dartford tolls is nothing to do with traffic numbers as they say it is, but everything to do with the money they refuse to stop collecting.?
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Possible tangent here, please forgive me. But why aren't receipts given out on the Dartford Crossing?
I was working as a locum clinician in Kent, sometimes driving over to Essex during the week and also coming home to Wales on weekends, always getting a VAT receipt for whichever Severn Crossing I used to submit with my weekly expenses. Yet when I asked for a receipt at a Dartford Crossing tollboth I was told "we don't give receipts"as the assistant pointed at a sign on her window (didn't notice any on my approach).
... So what's the deal for company drivers using it daily? I was given a pricelist but I can't see an accountant being overly impressed by that??? Gave up in the end.
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from Dartford Crossing Site
The Road User Charge levied does not attract VAT and there is no obligation to provide a receipt. However, if you have a DART-Tag account you can receive regular statements and obtain more detailed information of your journeys online. Additional congestion would be caused by the issue of receipts at the booth along with a possible litter issue
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As far as tolls go, we got caught in some heavy traffic on the M6 near Knutsford at the weekend. The satnav did an auto reroute and promptly took us down an unexpected toll road in the middle of nowhere. Having no choice, we had to pay an outrageous and eye watering 12p to proceed.
Can't imagine what that's all about. Positively mediaeval.
Edited by Dipstick on 17/08/2009 at 21:22
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That must have been the Warburton toll bridge. Has it gone up to 12p then? It's 25p for all day apparently.
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