The last word perhaps to (I think) Prof. Garel Rees who said a few years ago that in 20 years there will be six car makers left in the world - plus Morgan.
Thats good to know, isnt the waiting list for a new morgan 20 years?
Edited by Altea Ego on 13/08/2009 at 01:40
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Garel Rees - a personal hero.
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There have been some fine cars in concept
Mini, yes sure a global ground breaker. 1100? yes an exclent package, Some good rovers? yup, Maxi? great concept, terrible execution. Jags? I am a cad at heart so any of them will do.
But lets look back 30 years.
My first company car. 1979
I had a choice of a Mk1 Cavalier, A Fiat 131, or a Allagro or Marina
go on - tough choice - what woudl you have gone for.
1983 - I chose freshly minted Maestro - Bad choice son. should have gone for the Mk2 cav.
and so on. Nothing from BL could cut it.
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I really never did get what was so bad about the Allegro's design. Sure it was a dumpy little box, but there were plenty of other dumpy little boxes on sale at the time and they don't come in for so much flak.
The great British cars were surely either things like the P6, or glorious flawed gems like the Interceptor, Stag and SD1.
Always had a bit of a soft spot for the Reliant Scimitar as well. I know, I know...
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Scimitar, Oh Yes - and me Great looking car, very desirable.
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Hold on a minute with the Ford talk.
I believe from MK3 onwards the Cortinas were of german design but the British ones had British designed engines.
2 The only thing British about a Ford Ka is the engine block was originaly designed in the UK.
I once got told buy a customer "Don't go buy British crap like a Vauxhall Corsa, buy something Japeneese like a Nissan Micra"
Erm the Vauxhall is owned by an american company, designed in Germany and built in Spain not very British!
The Nissan Micra is built by Geordies who progressed from Biker Grove.
The best British designed car of all time? The Austin Alegro if they had made it more sleek like Harris Mann itended, had a hatch back, proper engines and a proper gearbox would have told VW where to go with the Golf. British Leyland would now own SEAT, Skoda, Audi and VW :D.
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> I really never did get what was so bad about the Allegro's design. Sure it was a dumpy little box, but there were plenty of other dumpy little boxes on sale at the time and they don't come in for so much flak.<
It wasn't so much the design of the Allegro as the horrible way it drove, with dreadful noise, driveline shunt, etc. Not to mention the problems.
AE - definitely the Mk 1 Cavalier, it looked nice and went well. My neighbour had a new poverty-spec one with the 1300 engine and two doors and even that was ok. I was flabbergasted when he turned it in for a Marina. After a few months he asked me to drive the Marina and tell him whether they were all as bad as his.
Btw, Hector, my late friend out here had a Montego estate that was definitely badged as a Rover and it was still complete carp.
Edited by mike hannon on 13/08/2009 at 07:31
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I'd have definitely put the Maxi in the original list... BMC/BL's most underdeveloped car... oh what could have been!
Also I'll put my neck on the line and say that the Princess was a better car than the Landcrab... appart from the usual BL reliability problems all it was let down by was lack of fifth gear and hatch... it was a far nicer car than its FOrd/Vuaxhall competition...
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I had just started my first job in a Vauxhall dealer when the MK1 Cavalier was launched and they really were a very good car for that period. They looked a bit plain, especiallly inside, but very well built, and the 1.6 & 1.9 Cam In Head engines were extremely strong and long lasting. A far better car than the Cortina or Marina that they were competing with. Unfortunately when they decided to plant the 1256cc engine from the Viva/Chevette in them in 1977, it pushed that lump that still had a 3 bearing crank and partial flow oil filter to it's very limit and in the hands of an enthusiastic driver they could have a very short life. I remember a couple of these that were reps cars requiring a replacement engine under the 12 months warrenty !
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Rattle, the Micra is built by Wearsiders, sometimes referred to in a derogatory manner as "Mackems". They are not Geordies and live a considerable distance from the fictional Byker Grove.
I nominate, for their stylish design, the large Triumph saloons from the 1970s, including the 2000, 2500TC and 2.5PI, from which the Stag was also derived.
My father had a 2500TC in British Racing Green. It looked fabulous, was reliable and was a fast car.
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I'll have a go at this, but I'll widen the list if you don't mind?
1. Series 1-3 Land Rover. It's got honesty and integrity by the bucketload which is worth more than any number of dashboard gadgets. Also it was exported to bring money in from other countries, something that British cars failed to do in later years.
2. 1929 Bentley Speed 6. If you've ever seen one being driven hard, you'll know why. The fact that an 80 year old can still be thrashed speaks volumes.
3. Series 1 E-Type Jaguar. An obvious choice, a cliché but still very pretty in the metal and it makes you feel special to drive one. Performance for the money (even if the 150mph performance was exaggerated) at the time was exceptional.
4. Austin 1100. The car that the rest of Europe and Asia would be making, 15 years early.
5. McLaren F1. Proof that Britain can make the "ultimate" car
6. MG TC. Not new, even when it was introduced but well loved and sold in large numbers to America, opening up a valuable export market.
7. Range Rover. A car that pretty much created a new niche market.
8. '50s and early '60s British sports cars. I'll lump all of these in one, stuff like MGAs and early Bs, TR3-6, Healeys etc. Stuff that was so loved when it was new that people keep restoring them even now. Not the stuff from the 1970s which was well past it's sell-by date
9. Anything made from fibreglass in low quantities. From the special bodies on a Ford Popular chassis (preferably with the beam axle sawn in half to make a crude independent front suspension!) through Lotus, TVR and hundreds of others. Many don't last long as a business, but they show a particular British talent of making something with not much.
10. Routemaster bus. Rarely has a vehicle met its design brief so well.
Edited by Garethj on 13/08/2009 at 09:18
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A very good list there, Garethj. I couldn't help but notice the absence of the BMC Mini from your list, though. Do you also believe it to be over-rated? I think that it was a very intelligent solution to the problems the motor industry faced after the suez crisis, a very economical package that deserved to suceed. However, it had no right to survive as long as it did. I think that as soon as the new wave of hatchback 'superminis' started to arrive, it was outdated and obsolete.
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I couldn't help but notice the absence of the BMC Mini from your list though.
That's a tough one - while it's well loved now, back when it was launched it wasn't (as usual) very well developed. And even though it's a very clever packaging solution, that thinking missed the boat by a mile because the buying public want metal for their money. Why have something that looks tiny when for the same price you can have a Ford Anglia that looks like a proper car? That's why sales were slow for the first few years.
It's this flawed thinking that puts it out of the top 10, but probably not far out because it's pretty much a motoring icon.
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The Nissan Micra is built by Geordies who progressed from Biker Grove.
Wasn't the Micra's 1.0 engine derived from the BL A series?
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>>The Nissan Micra is built by Geordies who progressed from Biker Grove.>>
Shame on you Rattle..:-)
(it's Byker Grove by the way)
I recall going round the then brand new Nissan factory at Sunderland in 1989 and learning that the employees didn't necessarily have to have an engineering background or previous experience of manufacturing to obtain work on the assembly lines.
They were selected more on the basis that they were adaptable, could follow the company's strategy regarding top quality standards at all times and quickly learn new techniques as necessary.
The result was that the plant produced Micras and Primeras for Europe that were at least the equal of those built in Japan and, quite often, even better quality.
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One thing that interests me from the original list; only the Range Rover could claim to be anything near the "finished article" when it was first introduced, inasmuch as most of the subsequent development was essentially cosmetic.
All the others suffered more or less from the British curse, lack of investment in R&D.
It never fails to amaze me that BL learned so little from the demise of the British motorcycle industry. Having said that, even when they went into partnership with Honda they messed up; the Acclaim (rebadged Honda) was a quality car worthy of its Triumph badge, the 200 series was a worse rot-box than the old Viva.
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The British car industry's finest hour was when we finally stopped making British cars......they were all crap.
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My list:
10. Austin Allegro
Awful.
9. Austin Montego
Awful and appeared to be made of cardboard. Meanwhile the Sierra was the first mass produced 'modern' car, as in it worked most of the time.
8. Jaguar XJS
As 70's as disco and as reliable as a Studio 54 coke addict.
7. Rover 600
Half way decent but lost when BL was sold to BMW and Honda input was lost.
6. Range Rover
Old BL joke. What are the two things that can be seen from space? Answer the Chinese Wall and the shut lines on a Range Rover. Awful.
5. BMC Mini.
Cult status but rotted so badly it was covered in rust on delivery.
4. BMC 1100/1300
Awful. Handled so badly the Grim Reaper came as a free accessory.
3. Rover P6
A truly excellent car. Drank petrol like a whisky priest but a good car.
2. Rover 200 series (89-)
Serious design faults including the brakes which were not pinioned but floated in the housing and shot out the back end after the slightest of wear. Happened to me once on the Kings Road according to the AA man 'they all do this'.
1. BMC 1800/2200
Awful. See 1100/1300 re: handling but with more power.
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I had a Morris 1100 new in '66. Handled better than anything I'd had before. Stuck to the tarmac like velcro.
Had an MG 1300 version in mid 70s and later bought the ultimate, a Vanden Plas 1300. Burgundy with fawn leather, carpets a foot thick. Lovely little micro-limo. Elegant.
They all rusted though.
Ted
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I had a Morris 1100 new in '66. Handled better than anything I'd had before. Stuck to the tarmac like velcro.
Have to agree, Ted, compared with the contemporary offerings from Ford and Vauxhall it was great... but I suspect that the poster is a rwd enthusiast and therefore any early fwd car would be rubbish... each to their own, eh!
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My eight driving lessons were in an 1100 in mid-1964 and I still remember the model with great affection. The interior space including headroom, even in the back, was remarkable for the size of vehicle, just as with the Mini.
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>>>British Leyland would now own SEAT, Skoda, Audi and VW
If BL had got their incompetent hands on VW/Audi the whole lot would have gone bankrupt many years ago. I wonder what I would have been driving now?
I'm recovering from swine flu, Rattle you've made me laugh. Thanks.
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Okay, how about:
Jowett Javelin - aluminium flat-4 engine, torsion-bar suspension all round, unitary body construction - in 1947.
Jensen Interceptor/FF - American muscle-car engine, Italian styling and (with the FF) "quattro" transmission and ABS in 1966!
Reliant Scimitar GTE - a classic shooting brake from the people who brought you the Robin!
Bristol Fighter - the ultimate British supercar? 1,012bhp and 1,036lb ft in the Fighter T version. Also, a Bristol that looks like it has been styled by a professional (unlike most)!
Have to also mention the Rover SD1, if only for its timeless styling - still looks good more than 30 years on.
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