Its absolutely the drivers fault, however not with their driving in every circumstance.
In some conditions you simply cant stop the car no matter how much space you leave if the surface has no grip and the car is unable to loose any momentum - I had ten car gap but that wasnt enough to slow from less than 10 mph because the road was liek sheet ice.
Its very easy for those who havent done it to scoff, but it may be you next time.
The mistake isnt in the driving but leaving the house at all if your car is not specifically equipped for the snow, normal tyres dont have the grip and no matter how careful you are, your just pushing your luck. I for one shant bother next time.
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Shouldn't this thread be joined to the ' Angry " one that was running recently ?
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If we did that religiously Mr X then most threads would end up in there!!
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I'm not angry, I'm bewildered ;-)
I agree with Stu, that occasionally there will just be an accident even when you are being careful - doesn't mean it's somebody else's fault though. I had a narrow squeak a couple of years ago - crested a rise, fortunately quite slowly, and immediately saw the surface had changed from ordinary packed snow to the shiny variety. Managed to bring the car to a stop. As I was pondering what to do next, it started to move very slowly down the hill! I had a vision of gathering speed and sliding heavily into the ditch. Stuck it in reverse and ever so gently managed to reverse back up the slope. It certainly made me even more careful!
If only I'd known I could blame the council!
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This local paper's web editor skidded off a quite sharp, downhill bend on black ice yesterday:
tinyurl.com/aq7aeh
Quotes from the driver concerned include, "Really, this should have been prevented", "Personally, I am furious", "That particular stretch of road has a 70mph limit" and "Someone has to be held accountable".
That stretch of road has steep banks above it on either side and mature trees all around including in the central reservation. Even in the summer the road surface rarely dries out completely.
If the bend in question is attacked at 70mph in clear, dry conditions everyone in the car will become very well acquainted with either the person seated to their right, or the inside trim on the right-hand doors. To try it on a below-freezing February night can only have one outcome...
BTW The Armco on the outside of that bend is painted black - white - black - white, except for the 50-metre section at the sharpest part of the bend. There it alternates between shiny and new, and shiny but mangled, on a weekly basis.
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I came around a bend one winter and was flagged down and warned about the icy road.
There was a car upside down in the middle of the road, one in the left hedge and one in a field on the right.
I wondered if they had all just left the local pub - I had just spent at least an hour trying to
get home safely. I was on a motorcycle!
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> tinyurl.com/aq7aeh
There's a "comment" section. No comments so far.
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> tinyurl.com/aq7aeh There's a "comment" section. No comments so far.
Except from me :)
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Well if you read Mike Rutherford in last Saturday's Telegraph Motoring section, he's threatening to sue his local council for not gritting a car park properly where he bent his car! In addition, he's advocating that everyone that has had a similar mishap should do the same.
I think it's that sort of lack of personal responsibility that impacts us all negatively when councils (or any other organisations) are scared into total inaction by this "vexatious litigation".
I thought it was very irresponsible journalism.
tinyurl.com/by8tx3 (link to Telegraph)
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SNIPQUOTE!
Except from me :)
>>
And me..... (bet they dont get published!)
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 12/02/2009 at 10:33
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SNIPQUOTE!
And me..... (bet they dont get published!)
>>
and me.Don't think they will publish what I think of that moron.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 12/02/2009 at 10:32
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Irresponsible journalism, vexatious litigation, big brother Government, bad weather and mimsing drivers lacking personal responsibility. I'm off to the angry thread...
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I have some sympathy for the BoS journalist. He did say he slowed down, but was taken by surprise.
I crashed my car at 1mph last December coming down my drive, as many of you will remember. Yes my fault, but we are all human. Sometimes, even driving with utmost care, a car can get out of control. There but for the grace of God etc etc....
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I crashed my car at 1mph last December coming down my drive as many of you will remember. Yes my fault but we are all human.
But you didnt immediately blame the council did you espada. Like a normal respectable person you said "my fault or something abnormal i couldnt avoid"
Its the same as people who whine about getting caught speeding. Its YOUR responsibility you got caught.
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Does Mike Rutherford know where Councils get the money from to defend actions from people like him?
I suppose he'll also complain when his Council Tax goes up by 20%.
The man isn't the brightest bulb in the set of fairy lights is he?
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"I agree with Stu, that occasionally there will just be an accident even when you are being careful - doesn't mean it's somebody else's fault though"
That's the nub of the problem, and the concept that people can't grasp nowadays.
There have been lots of times when I have thought I was being careful, but afterwards I have realised it was a simple misjudgement. Life is like that - it's called experience, and we try to learn from it.
It's not quite the same thing as one's "fault", but it's certainly not anybody else's.
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S'funny it still says 'no comments' well i've put in my tuppence.
Maybe we haven't said what they wanted to hear.
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The clue why there are no comments disagreeing are in his job title:
"local paper's web editor"!
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Journalist posts article saying that "on an area of the A6 near Clophill, notoriously known as Dead Man's Hill" was dangerous in ice and snow.
Brilliant. How perceptive.
No suggestion that it might be well known as a death trap but people with no thought etc..
Bet it has "dangerous hill" and warning signs plastered all over it.
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Disappointed to see my posting from last night deleted. If action had to be taken(I do not think it was wholly inappropriate) then it should have been re located to MR Angry thread.
Anyway; sometimes an accident is just that, no one is really to blame it's just circu,stance however in most cases it will be the driver to blame for not taking into account the conditions in which they are driving. Lets face it we all take risks and sometimes they don't pay off- THATS LIFE I'm afraid and people need to take account of their own actions
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Councils have a duty to keep roads clear. If they can't/won't fulfill this duty (for whatever reason), the responsibility for crashes falls to the offending drivers for driving too fast for the conditions.
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Good old compensation culture has now made people think that there is always someone to blame... wonder when it will end? I can't see companies and insurance companies continueing to keep forking out... somethings got to give...
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"It's clearly not the case, and what makes it worse is that particular stretch of road has a 70mph limit."
Which of course means it's against the law to travel at less than 63 mph on that section (limit less 10%).
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Still none of your comments yet... do you think they may be "editing" them?!
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Surely not - otherwise the web editor would be out of a job....
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So perhaps one of the "posters" needs to complain to someone higher at the paper?
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You could try editor at lsnmedia.co.uk - you could even e-mail james.cunliffe at lsnmedia.co.uk - both publically accessible e-mail addresses.
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I understand now, you should've said it was from the Beds on Sunday. Amazingly it makes the Sunday Sport look like a broadsheet with considered news items and opinion. My mum lives in Bedford and I enjoy the sensationalism within the paper whenever I visit.
As for the blame culture it really is winding me up now, it's time people thought, oh it could be my fault. The last two days I've seen dozens of drivers who have run out of talent and bent their pride and joys.
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A90 - Central belt to Aberdeen - lots of bumps in Forfar/Brechin around 9 - 11am
3.5 hrs for a journey that is normally 2 hours.
I witnessed 1 in front of me @ Brechin - 3 passed me 2 mins earlier and they hit the barriers.
I was doing 40 +/on a slushy snowy inside lane - they must have been doing 60 on a snowy outside lane!!
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I was doing 40 +/on a slushy snowy inside lane - they must have been doing 60 on a snowy outside lane!!>>
Trouble is, one man's sensible driver is another man's (Lud's?) mimser ;-(
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Trouble is one man's sensible driver is another man's (Lud's?) mimser ;-(
Quite often, yes, but not always. I am not completely barking.
Had to drive back across town from the other side of the Angel last night to pick up Ms Lud from Kensal Green. It was snowing and sleeting quite hard, so that the main roads were all right but side ones getting a 1-inch layer of slippery stuff, and even well-trafficked roads were a bit slippery. I myself deemed a wholly-legal mimse appropriate after provoking some easy wheelspin and poking the front end out on a bend or two, by way of routine research. I always brake gently and in good time anyway, by my own standards at least.
Just past Lord's there's a traffic light. There were three cars in front of me in the r/h lane, not signalling, so I risked stopping behind them. Then I remembered that we were in deepest St. John's Wood, but it was too late to do anything about it. Sure enough two vehicles in front of me decided to signal right after the traffic lights changed to green: a black taxi and, much less surprisingly, a local Mercedes.
People are such carp I can hardly bear it sometimes.
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You could try editor at lsnmedia.co.uk - you could even e-mail james.cunliffe at lsnmedia.co.uk - both publically accessible e-mail addresses.
I've sent an email. Think I'll get a reply?
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Dunno. I may ask, too. Any "comments" yet?
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The editor has replied!
They have received some comments but none deemed fair or reasonable and some libellous.
He suspects a concerted campaign in response to the story and reminds me that the writer was an innocent victim.
'Nuff said.
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"the writer was an innocent victim"
Of course he was a victim - how could he have forecast icy roads - it's been minimum 70 deg F in England for the last six months, surely. That ice was out of the blue. Most clearly not his fault.
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...and he wasn't even doing 70!
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I do believe they have pulled that story.....
I can say with conviction that what I wrote* could have been deemed fair and reasonable and certainly not libellous.
*BTW I don't have short hairy legs!
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I do believe they have pulled that story.....
Seems they have indeed.
While I was looking I clicked on 'News' and found this:
"An inquest has ruled that a motorcyclist died after losing control on an icy road...............
The bike he was riding lost control on the ice."
There ye go. Someone (Or something) to blame this time.
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I have submitted a positive comment from, ahem, my ex-wife. Let's see if they publish that!
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As the forum member who posted the original link to the BoS story, I feel that I should clarify the reasons why I did so:
The preceding posts were discussing the "blame culture", specifically relating to drivers having accidents through not driving according to the wintry conditions and then expressing opinions that their accident would not have happened had the "council done its job properly".
The opinion of most users of this forum is that icy, hazardous conditions in winter are entirely predictable and manageable to people who have an interest in driving in general - however as we all know a lot of drivers have no interest in driving, only seeing it as a method of getting from A to B.
I linked to the BoS article because it provided a clear example of the type of driver who doesn't understand (or want to understand) the finer points of driving and who then gets upset when the conditions catch them out. I did not post the link in order that people might submit libellous or disparaging comments to the paper's website, nor so that they may e-mail the paper's editor or the article's author. The article merely fitted in with the topic under discussion at the time.
There, that should cover my backside sufficiently ;-)
Dave TD.
Edited by Webmaster on 14/02/2009 at 03:09
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don't think it should be a case of wether someone is "interested" in driving or not it is a case of they should be capable and competent which one could be with no interest at all. Anyone driving on our roads should be capable and competent in my opinion however unfortunately a large % are not.
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The same with walking, I saw a bloke go flat on his back on black ice outside the paper shop..........
;-)
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You jest oilrag - but a colleague's wife is a doctor's receptionist (I don't know whether of the battleaxe variety as I don't know her personally). He says in all seriousness that the surgery no longer puts grit down or clears snow because they believe that would make them liable if someone slipped.
Sounds bonkers to me, but if it is indeed possible to create create a liability for oneself by attempting to make things safer, presumably this would apply to councils. You would then have the insane situation in which they would have no liability if they did no gritting at all, but exposed themselves to paying for everyone's misfortunes if they did.
If we expect the councils, or even doctor's surgeries, to spend time and money clearing snow then they have to be safe from frivolous claims. Hopefully a few of these will go to court and be chucked out.
Edited by Manatee on 14/02/2009 at 12:23
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tinyurl.com/cdjqas
Why does no one ever accept responsibility for their own actions nowadays?
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And who pays for the compensation claim for her? All her neighbours through increased local taxes... bet they'll be pleased!
Edited by b308 on 16/02/2009 at 09:12
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Interesting line from the newspaper article:
"If the car had skidded across the road we would have ploughed into dozens of primary school children who assemble there to walk to school."
Of course, silly of me, I've forgotten, most kids don't walk to school these days, do they?
(I am about to sue Nestlé for the burns caused to my lips and mouth after drinking a monstrously hot cup of Nescafé I made for myself only this morning.)
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"Why does no one ever accept responsibility for their own actions nowadays?"
Because that's the way the state has made people by continually proceduralising everything to take away discretion and responsibility.
A fair few years ago, a man who crashed and tried to sue the HWA for not gritting a road lost his case in the High Court, it was decided that the 'responsibility to maintain the fabric of the Highway' did not extend to keeping it free from ice. It is unlikely any other case would succeed.
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Top marks to everyone who made it through the ice and snow despite the personal risks and commiserations to those who have a damaged vehicle as a result of an accident - regardless of fault.
Sadness for those who have died or been injured on the roads and a generosity of spirit towards everyone - life is short enough and who knows who will next be snuffed out - either on the roads, or in the second by second - one heartbeat from eternity - reality of existence.......
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You have that about right Oily. Working from home today and looking in on HJ while I give myself a coffee break.
Been fretting about various work related stuff this morning and allowing myself to get quite rattled by some of it. Your post has just given me some pause for thought.
I can remember being rather worked up over a few things over the years which all seem a bit trivial now.
Keeping things in perspective is a skill many of us are slow to learn and quick to forget.
Best, H
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I thought about you when the shoe company troubles were on the news the other day H, wondering if it was directly affecting you?
Wishing you well ..
Edited by oilrag on 16/02/2009 at 15:33
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Seems they've finally given up and posted a few comments:
tinyurl.com/c6au9v
Edited by Andy P on 03/03/2009 at 10:35
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Seems they've finally given up and posted a few comments:
Hehehe including one from me under a nom de plume. It thought it would be obvious to them that I was taking the Michael!
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Have another look at at Andy P's link - some honest comments added. Including some contradictory ones from my alter ego.
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in bedfordshire on the saturdayof that icy morning at 8.45 i was told to turn round by a breakdown truck driver , he said dont go that way cars are skidding all over the road. so i went home . 2 hours latter i tried again road seemed ok but it ook it steady, came to sharp bend and two cars had just crashed. a council worker was now throwing grit on the road , and coming towards me is a police car lights flashong and a gritting lorry. this road often floods over slightly and this probably caused the ice. my thoughts are that shouldnt happen the council should have better drainage in place.
this same bend a couple of years back , i just missed a crash and police had just placed a road closed sign up. i phoned the local radio , it took an hour and a quarter for them to mention it. .f you phone the police to warn of a dangerous road , idont think they would be very interested imo
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