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Crashed the Outback this morning - Happy Blue!
It snowed overnight in Manchester and my house is high up above the road with a steep drive. I gingerly edged the car down the slope, but gravity took over and it slid into the road where the nose hit a passing car. ABS doesn't work on snow - as we all know!

No-one was hurt and driver of hit car was very calm and philosophical about it.

Damage to the passing car (a 14 year old Merc E-class estate) was nearside rear door and wing scraped and wheel pushed into the arch. Suspect broken driveshaft and suspension bits.

Damage to my car was extensive, but I could reverse the car back up my drive (with difficulty given the snow) and out of the way. I will need new off side wing, front bumper, bonnet and lots of other bits hidden behind. Doesn't appear to be mechanical damage.

Waiting to hear about the repair and wether the car will be written off. If I were to buy the identical car now, it would cost about £11,500 from a Subaru dealer (assuming no discount).

I'm gutted.
Crashed the Outback this morning - FotheringtonThomas
Surely the function of ABS (ALB on my car!) is only to allow one to steer whilst braking heavily.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Stuartli
Surely the function of ABS (ALB on my car!) is only to allow one to steer whilst braking heavily.>>


That's one of the benefits. The main reason is to prevent the wheels locking up and thus preventing a skid in other than treacherous road conditions.

It's cadence braking as we used to know it, but vastly quicker and more accurate.

Edited by Stuartli on 02/12/2008 at 23:42

Crashed the Outback this morning - daveyjp
That's what happens when you start talking about what to replace it with should something untoward happen to the Outback!

As you note ABS is useless in snow as the constant release means snow isn't cleared from under the wheels as it is if you lock up.




Edited by daveyjp on 02/12/2008 at 13:20

Crashed the Outback this morning - Alby Back
I've got an old Mondeo diesel estate I could let you have cheap, it's good in snow..........................

;-)

Bad joke...sorry...... What a pain for you. Hope you get things sorted out satisfactorily

Crashed the Outback this morning - the swiss tony
The reason ABS doesnt work on snow /ice is because there are sensors that tell the computer that one or more wheels are not turning the same speed as the rest or are not turning at all....
BUT if ALL wheels are stationary the ABS computer thinks the car is stationary - no matter what speed the car is travelling!
I had this happen in heavy rain on the M25, I had to brake heavily, the car started to aquaplane, all wheels locked..... luckily I managed to cadence brake, and the car did stop before hitting the stationary cars in front.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Paul Robinson
Spooky that it was only Sunday you were posting a question - what if the Outback was in an accident!
Crashed the Outback this morning - Happy Blue!
I know. There is a nice 1 year old model with 6,000 miles for sale for about £15,000. Seems like a deal to me. £3,500 and 14,000 miles less that what I got mine for two years ago.
Crashed the Outback this morning - mrsarcasm

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 02/12/2008 at 13:42

Crashed the Outback this morning - Alby Back
I know this doesn't help at all now but for any others who may encounter a similar situation this winter, there is a way of helping to defeat the ABS factor in snow.

If you have ever ridden a mountain bike down a steep muddy descent you will know that an accepted technique is to lock the back brake to create drag while leaving the front wheel free to turn and steer.

Same thing is very useful in a car in the scenario Espada describes. Using the handbrake lock the back wheels to create a primitive but surprisingly effective hill descent control while retaining the ability to steer.


Crashed the Outback this morning - Altea Ego
>
handbrake lock the back wheels to create a primitive but surprisingly effective hill descent control


You need to be very good to utilise this technique. Be in the right gear, one hand on the wheel, one hand on the handbrake with the button pressed in, and the guts to give it some welly on the front wheels to provide some directional assistance at the right times and knowing when to lift off.

Only useful on FWD of course.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Alby Back
Well, of course one wouldn't want to boast.....ahem....however......
No, it just comes from having lived and driven in snowy places a lot over the years.
Does read a bit haughty though on reflection...sorry 'bout that, just trying to help.....

;-)
Crashed the Outback this morning - Soupytwist
If you have an appreciation for irony, go take a look at www.subaru.co.uk - the home page Flash animation may make you smile.
Crashed the Outback this morning - boxsterboy
This is the problem with snow. To accelerate 4x4 or winter tyres help, but when it comes to braking or driving down a slope on snow, all you've got is a wing and a prayer.

(And I thought you were a surveyor - fancy buying a house with an inherent defect like a hill for an approach/exit road? ;) )
Crashed the Outback this morning - Happy Blue!
Yeah - but my house doesn't flood!
Crashed the Outback this morning - Mapmaker
>>ABS doesn't work on snow - as we all know!

No. ABS is downright dangerous on snow, as we all know. Why they abolished the turn-it-off button I have no idea.
Crashed the Outback this morning - movilogo
Why ABS doesn't work on snow??

The only time I heard Grrr sound from my car's brake while I'm on snow!
Crashed the Outback this morning - Mapmaker
Why ABS doesn't work on snow??


The ABS system does "work". However, ABS stops you from stopping on snow (or gravel).
The only time I heard Grrr sound from my car's brake while I'm on snow!


Quite, just showing how dangerous it is. The only way to come to a stop in snow/gravel is to lock the wheels, build up a ridge of powder in front of the wheel, and then stop.

ABS doesn't let the wheels lock, so they keep on rotating and the car moves OVER the snow.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Old Navy
I'm gutted.>>

I bet you are not as gutted as the innocent motorist whose car you have probably written off. Didnt you notice the white stuff on the ground, as you obvously didnt allow for it? (remove snow / grit drive). Still at least you have insurance.

Edited by Old Navy on 02/12/2008 at 13:53

Crashed the Outback this morning - borasport20
Commiserations Gareth - not a good day for travel in the north west today ;-)
Crashed the Outback this morning - Westpig
Espada,

Can't believe your timings re the hypothetical question about replacing it. Perhaps i'll post something hypothetically about winning the lottery..and what to buy.
Crashed the Outback this morning - jbif
;-) Another 4x4 and/or driver who could not handle the snow; see Photos here:

tinyurl.com/6ednxf
"A 4x4 teeters precariously on the edge of the road after apparently skidding during heavy snow in the Pennines"

Crashed the Outback this morning - hillman1 {p}
"A 4x4 teeters precariously on the edge of the road after apparently skidding during heavy
snow in the Pennines"


I particularly liked the opening paragraph of that story...

'Thousands of motorists faced traffic chaos this morning as heavy snow storms and freezing Arctic weather swept their way northwards down through the country.'

:-)
Crashed the Outback this morning - jbif
Large view of same 4x4:
tinyurl.com/5rafpl

Crashed the Outback this morning - Big Bad Dave
"Can't believe your timings re the hypothetical question about replacing it"

Yes, I suspect some insurance fraud going on here Espada...
Crashed the Outback this morning - Altea Ego
TBH ABS or non ABS - braking is still useless in snow*. Ah you say! what about the nice wedge of snow you get in front of the tyres when you lock the tyres.

Fabulous theory

Rarely works in practise in the uk. It works with nice dry cold powdery snow thats grips to itself sure.
We dont get such snow, we get nasty wet warm slushy snow. That doesn't build a wedge but gloops wetly either side of the tyre.

*british snow

On Ice? ABS or non ABS?, take your pick the steering does not work either way.
Crashed the Outback this morning - David Horn
I have a £20 bet with someone that it won't snow dahn sarf this week, so with any luck things will keep running for us in Oxford. Wish I was in Manchester, I love snow. :-(

Commiserations about the car, btw.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Falkirk Bairn
Espada - if you must go sledging at the 1st sign of the whitestuff - hang the expense and go and buy a sledge!

Sorry to hear of the bump.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Happy Blue!
Thanks

Of course with hidsight I should have got the shovel out of the garage, but the kids were late for school, although I was very careful about driving the car, literally inching down the drive, the car just slid away from me.

However, it has brought some joy to my day. I have borrowed my old Forester from my father and by gum, it really is a superb car. I keep saying this, but the driving position is really good. My only gripe is door mirrors that are a bit small.
Crashed the Outback this morning - DP
Ouch. Sorry to hear about the bump. :-(

The main thing is nobody was hurt. Metal can be replaced.
Crashed the Outback this morning - jbif
OK, so ABS is useless on ice. But does traction control work?


Crashed the Outback this morning - Rattle
Makes me glad to live on the flatter parts of Manchester, I did nearly slip on the pavement and brake my back though while going out to remove my spare wheel. Trye man came today two replace the two boots and I have noticed a big improvment in grip in these conditions.

Slightly OT but I was doing 25mph down this slightly bendy road as there may have been black ice as the pavements were covered in it, there was also speed cameras there (30 limit) some guy then over takes me, and beeps and flashes the lights at me! I cannot believe people still drive like pricks in these icy/snow conditions.

In your case it sounds like it was just bad luck, hopefully your insured will cover it and it won't affect your premiums too much. My friend skidded her car this morning near Saddleworth ended up mounting a pavement but no damage.

Glad you were not injured and have comfort in knowing it wasn't your fault :).
Crashed the Outback this morning - Old Navy
Glad you were not injured and have comfort in knowing it wasn't your fault :).

Also glad no injuries, but not Espadas fault? Cars dont skid, drivers lose control. No driver = no skid.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Stuartli
OK so ABS is useless on ice. But does traction control work?>>


That's tied up with the ABS setup...:-)
Crashed the Outback this morning - boxsterboy
OK so ABS is useless on ice. But does traction control work?


Yes, but progress is very slowl. I've driven 4x4s on 'ice' cobbles at MIRA, and with your foot flat to the floor, the car very slowly pulls away in a straight line and builds up speed as the traction control cuts in and out many times per second. Similar thing happens in 4x2 cars.
Crashed the Outback this morning - boxsterboy
OK so ABS is useless on ice. But does traction control work?


Yes, but progress is very slow. I've driven 4x4s on 'ice' cobbles at MIRA, and with your foot flat to the floor, the car very slowly pulls away in a straight line and builds up speed as the traction control cuts in and out many times per second. Similar thing happens in 4x2 cars.
Crashed the Outback this morning - leef
It snowed overnight in Manchester and my house is high up above the road with
a steep drive.


Sorry to hear that Espada, I nearly had a problem too. I don't think we live to far from each other. I live in crumpsall and it was pretty bad this morning!

Hope your car isn't wrote off mate.

Cheers
Lee

Crashed the Outback this morning - Citroënian {P}
G,

Sorry to hear about the crunch but if it gets a new car at a time when they're almost giving them away it might work out OK - there were some cheap Tribecas on Motorpoint last time I looked, could be an interesting alternative.

Had a similar situation myself this morning but got away with it. We live up a cobbled cul-de-sac which slopes toward the road at a fair angle - the cobbles themselves have a very pronounced crest type camber.

Decided with the snow to get the bus to work, but after 50 minutes of waiting for it, realised it wasn't going to turn up so went for the car. As I went down the road it started to slide; pressed the brakes and it just went sideways, released that, tried the handbrake and sideways again but worse. As I headed towards a neighbour's A3 I realised all I could do was release all the brakes and hopefully steer down the rest of the hill; this worked and I ended up in the middle of the main road that adjoins our bit, very fortunately though there wasn't anything coming so I got away with it.

Hope the insurance is sorted quickly and you're back properly mobile asap.

Best regards
Lee
Crashed the Outback this morning - Rattle
This is the problem with buses, you decide to get to bus instead of risking driving a car in snow, but the road where the depot is was probably causding problems with the buses!.

Either way I am getting the bus to my job this evening, they are every 15 mins though so its not too bad, just not risking as I am an inexperienced driver, if experience drivers such as the OP are crashing it shows how dangerious it can be.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Alby Back
Is it still snowing in Manchester? My wife is over that way this evening and has my car......I like that car.....

:-(
Crashed the Outback this morning - ifithelps
Did something similar trying to join the North Circular in London from a side turning a few years ago.

It was down hill, hit the brakes and black ice, slid straight onto said A406, across both lanes of the dual carriageway and came to rest against the central reservation.

There was nothing coming and I managed to get the car pointing in the right direction before anything did.

Scary stuff, that black ice.

Crashed the Outback this morning - MVP
Why are you guys all driving in such dangerous conditions?

Wouldn't it be better to take public transport or a day off work rather than risking yours, and worse still, somebody elses life?

MVP
Crashed the Outback this morning - Rattle
Indeed I am getting the bus for my job tonight the problem is public transport can be unreliable when its icy/snowing for the same reason cars are. Most the roads here aren't bad now, its just the hidden black ice which is the killer. It is not snowing here but then it hasn't been all day just icey where sleet has melted.

It will be North Manchester which is more affected as its higher up and hilly, where I live its as flat as Norfolk.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Spospe
The below was originally posted on this forum almost exactly two years ago and at that time did not receive too much sympathy. Perhaps BR's have now had some personal experience of ABS and realise that it is not a panacea in difficult conditions.

Sorry for repeting the post, but doing so makes me feel a bit better ........

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------


As we are approaching the season of snow & ice I would like to share an experience with Back roomers and ask their advice / opinions on the use of Anti-Lock Brakes (ALB) under very difficult conditions.

In January 2006 my wife set off for work at about 07:00 one snowy morning, just as the temperature was starting to rise above freezing point. We live on a hill which varies from 1 in 10 to a steepish 1 in 5 and outside our house it is about 1 in 8. She set off down the hill in her (old shape) Yaris 1.3 equipped with ALB and Brake Force Distribution: she might have well as set off on a sledge.

My wife set off by reversing out of the drive, up the hill, stopped and then gently, at a walking pace, began to roll down hill (in 2nd gear)

The car was uncontrollable, she could neither stop nor steer. She tobogganed down the hill, over a (deserted) crossroad, into a cul-de-sac, knocked down 4 metal bollards and came to rest after hitting a substantial fence head-on. Maximum speed was under 10 mph and injury, apart from to pride and self-confidence was nil.

Throughout this experience, which I observed from our driveway the ALB functioned correctly and made a noise like a demented machine-gun / hammer drill, but was totally unable to stop the car. The car also was unsteerable, slaloming across the road from side to side. What did stop the car were the aforementioned bollards, not the brakes.

I have previously personally experienced something like the above when driving a Toyota RAV on smooth snow, pushing the brake pedal so hard that the seat-back bent and producing only a very slight braking effect with non-existent steering. Fortunately I did eventually stop without hitting anything. The speed at the start of this escapade was less than 15 mph.

My conclusions are that ALB is less than useful under extreme snow conditions and is actually potentially dangerous as it seems to prevent a wedge of snow / ice building up in front of the wheels. In days gone by, I drove Land Rovers under ?difficult? icy conditions and found that pumping the brakes rapidly seemed quite effective. The ability to actually lock the wheels seemed helpful, but with ALB the wheels do not lock.

Anyone who has seen a demonstration of ALB allowing the car to brake and steer and thinks that this will really work under all conditions is living in a fool?s paradise.

Sorry to have gone on a bit, but two questions:

1) Have other BR?s experienced the above?

2) What should (could) my wife have done (I suggested using the handbrake)?
Crashed the Outback this morning - Happy Blue!
Thanks for the concern guys. For those of you local to me in North Manchester (Leef!), I discovered that a friend did the identical thing to me this morning, half an hour before me. He lives within 100 yards of my house and also has a steep drive down to Bury Old Road. Doh!

Humph, at present, Manchester is not too cold and is possibly trying to rain rather than snow, but whether it will thaw overnight I don't know. I have now put grit down the drive.

I have also had a good look at my car. Its not as bad as I thought. Wing undamaged. headlamp unit very slightly scratched, bonnet slightly bent at the front and bumper semi-wripped off and torn. Looking inside the crash bars (or whatever they are called) look unmoved and I suspect the pumper cover took most of the side swipe impact. So hopefully the repairer the car is going to (insurer approved - ha!) cannot mess it up too much.

Must admit to feeling both elated and disappointed. There is always the nice thought about buying something new (even if I am very happy with the Outback as you know), but when I thought about it, I had no idea what I wanted, so am glad that I expect to see the old girl back in my drive.

A quick trawl on autotrader today putting in my specific requirements, came up with a 2.0 Focus Titanium with auto, SatNav etc etc. Mind you it was almost £15,000. I wonder what they would do for cash now.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Altea Ego
The good thing about slow speed ice crashes is that the momentum of the car is easily altered. What I mean is that your sliding car easily diverts its self (because its slippy) when it hits something else, so you tend to end up with "scrapy" type damage rather than severely bent assemblies.

Of course if you career off the road at 50mph that theory goes out the window.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Nsar
Gareth - ouch, sorry to hear it.

Get it up to Robinson's for some TLC, that other lot in our neck of the woods aren't much cop.

The roads were shocking this morning. For once I was glad I was doing the early start for the London train so at least there wasn't much about.

The kids have had a whale of a time today as school was shut so they have had the day sledging.







Crashed the Outback this morning - ifithelps
...Of course if you career off the road at 50mph that theory goes out the window...

As indeed, do you, if you're not wearing a seatbelt. :)
Crashed the Outback this morning - tyro
Espada - sorry about your bump. It's not a nice thing to happen, and I'd be totally gutted if it had happened to me.

By curious co-incidence, I had my first real experience of "ABS is useless on snow" today - brake pulsating under my foot as I slid merrily on. I was lucky, though, and no harm done.

Academic question for the experts - would winter tyres have helped Espada at all in this situation?
Crashed the Outback this morning - J500ANT
I wonder if the offroading trick of using reverse gear and feeding in the clutch to work as the brake when crawling down a slippery hill would have helped?
Crashed the Outback this morning - Westpig
when i was taught to drive a van by the Old Bill there was snow everywhere, (Christmas 1984 or 1985) which with an empty 1980's Transit was 'interesting'.

One bit of road, well slippery, not gritted, with cars going everywhere.... i bottled out driving down a hill. The instructor laughed and said, just go down the kerb, get one tyre up against it, the friction will stop you from running away. Worked pefectly...
(i know that's not possible everywhere, but i'd imagine the principle could work against verges etc as well).

Crashed the Outback this morning - Happy Blue!
J500ANT -

No - its automatic.
Crashed the Outback this morning - tyro
Academic question for the experts - would winter tyres have helped Espada at all in
this situation?


Since the experts have not ventured any opinions, I'm going to hazard a guess of an answer to my own question . . .

Winter tyres provide better grip in snow, so they are less likely to lose grip and to lock. Hence winter tyres might have made a difference in this case - but it might not have been enough of a difference.

Interestingly enough, when Autobild tested winter tyres in October 2007, they found that braking distances in snow were less than half that of summer tyres.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Spospe
In parts of mainland Europe (e.g. Germany) it is a legal requirement to fit winter tyres between certain dates and motorists normally have a spare set of wheels + tyres.

So, to answer the question 'would winter tyres have helped'? I think the answer is a: 'Yes'.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Mapmaker
>>Winter tyres

Of course. Fantastic things. Having taken an Imprezza to the Alps, 4WD & winter tyres, it stuck to the road like glue. Never needed to use chains.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Ray2423
Sorry to hear about your crash.
ABS is a nightmare waiting to happen to lots of cars.
My own 2006 Mazda has taken to turning off the brakes in the snow and ice, The main dealer service manager has told me all mazda 6 have this problem and afte testing the car, found nothing wrong.
The mazda just would not brake in the ice on monday ? Lucky for me I only hit the footpath, the car would not stop at a road junction.
The ABS would not let the brakes work. Like you I find out MAZDA 6 ABS doesn`t work in the snow.
Its a known Mazda problem said my dealer "just don`t go out in the snow, if you wih to live" !
How many people will die though ABS failure, I wonder.
Good luck with your claim
Crashed the Outback this morning - rtj70
"The ABS would not let the brakes work. Like you I find out MAZDA 6 ABS doesn`t work in the snow."

I think you'll find that the ABS was working and stopping the wheels from locking. And therefore not allowing you to stop the car with the brakes.

This is discussed above - it affects all cars with ABS.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Altea Ego
> How many people will die though ABS failure, I wonder.


Its not an ABS failure. In your circumstances a non ABS car would not have stopped either.

No brakes work on ice - ABS or otherwise.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Mapmaker
How many people will die though ABS failure, I wonder


None. Many will die however imagining that ABS allows them to stop as easily in icy conditions as on a dry road. Try reading the highway code on stopping distances under different road conditions.
Crashed the Outback this morning - rtj70
Too many people think ABS helps reduce stopping distances, which is not the point of ABS. Indeed we all know minimum stopping distance needs the wheels locked (but there is no traction on ice). But locked wheels cannot be steered hence ABS does make a difference to road safety.


Crashed the Outback this morning - Number_Cruncher
Indeed we all know minimum stopping distance needs the wheels locked


Not quite, but it isn't a bad approximation.

Typically tyres can produce the maximum braking force at about 20% slip.

Without an accurate, robust estimate of vehicle speed, the ABS controller cannot reliably acheive 20% slip, and so, instead the system using an angular deceleration threshold, and cycles continuosly around the peak braking force, which is why the pedal judders repeatedly.
Crashed the Outback this morning - BobbyG
First of all "no luck" to espada.

But what this thread highlights is that nothing is going to stop when faced with slippery conditions like this.

On here we have had threads asking what 4x4 to buy for snowy conditions etc and maybe this was part of the thought process ie. how do I get up a slippy driveway.

However when it comes to it, no 4x4, saloon, hatch or whatever will stop when faced with sheet ice or similar conditions.

Most of the time we drive about in our safe "cocoons", but nothing can beat that helpless feeling as your car suddenly has no grip, no steering and you just start saying your prayers.

Someone in my work's sister has had her car damaged today. She lives at the bottom of a hill and her car was parked at side of road as normal. Over the course of the school run this morning, 5 different cars hit it within the space of about 20 mins! Would be interesting to see how she sorts that insurance claim out!
Crashed the Outback this morning - Lud
One cannot help feeling for Espada. The driveway must have been quite a lot more slippery than it looked leading perhaps to his rolling down it at an optimistic speed until too late. A bad moment, not too expensive or inconvenient I hope.

If a few cleats or similar on the drive surface won't guarantee retardation, or are already there, might I suggest the purchase of a bag of council rock salt stuff to make sure it doesn't happen again?
Crashed the Outback this morning - Pendlebury
I'm gutted for you espada - I always enjoyed reading about your outback as I fancy getting one next.
Crashed the Outback this morning - oilrag
Me too.. hope you get something sorted Espada...

I had a near miss in my wife`s Punto yesterday. The ice was all gone on the main roads at lunchtime and on the upper road on an estate. I then turned right at a (clear) mini roundabout and was suddenly faced with a moderate downhill slope that was a sheet of ice. For about 200 yards it gradually gained speed in neutral (up to about 25mph) and was weaving slightly with minute steering corrections on the ice.

There was fortunately grip lower down at another mini roundabout (which I could see heading down hill) braked hard on this and then back on ice again to the bottom - this time ticking over in first gear at walking speed.

I`m convinced that if I had not disengaged drive at the top and just steered, the front end would have gone, it was that bad.

A lesson to me as I did exactly the same thing in a Maestro about 16 years ago.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Lud
Numerous frightening little images of those no-grip moments are flashing through my memory, some ending in bent metal and others not - never anything worse fortunately - and all characterised by that sickening realisation that there's nothing to be done but watch...

I don't much like ABS either. It can malfunction and prevent the brakes from working when they should.

Edited by Lud on 03/12/2008 at 19:09

Crashed the Outback this morning - rtj70
I've had ABS cut in twice today... on the flat and under 20mph and very gentle braking.
Crashed the Outback this morning - spikeyhead {p}
I've spent the last week driving the Porsche whilst the Mondeo was treated to a new set of injectors (more of that in another thread when I've got some time).

Some of the journey has been across some very slippery unclassified roads, where ice was clearly visible in puddles at the side of the road and occasionally in other places too. Been twitching and will be glad to be back in the Mondeo tomorrow.
Crashed the Outback this morning - Ed V
Sounds like a lucky escape Espada.

I'd always heard experts say the winter tyres are much more important than 4x4. This seems to support that view? At least you can jump off a motor-bike at slow speed. Any takers for one in these conditions?!
Crashed the Outback this morning - Happy Blue!
Yes, winter tyres would have been helpful. I didn't buy the Outback for its 4x4 greasy road traction, but for general quality of drive, build, comfort etc etc, but I have used the 4x4 facility lets say when accelerating out of roundabouts etc.

I have two friends, both of whom ride motorbikes. One now has a broken ankle and the other, almost did this week. Yesterday morning, a cyclist fell off his bike trying to turn the corner in front of my house. He slipped on black ice and the bike went from under him. Luckily the van following him, was sufficiently far behind to avoid injuring him or damaging the bike. He was very fortunate.
 

Value my car