I know, from working behind the scenes at a service department, that it was common practice to round up the hours for the job and to add a few quid to every part price so that a profit was made over internal price paid.
I several times watched the manager and desk staff doing the bills and it was encouraged to add about 15-20% to the actual bill. The reasoning was, if they didnt ask for a quotation, it was open season.
Sounds too cynical to be true, but hey, how does a £500 bill for a Rover 100 grab you for a cambelt change plus oil/filter? Handed over a ton of those type of bills to little old ladies. And that was 7 years ago, just think what they will be charging now ( Citroen dealer currently ).
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My car - a 53 plate petrol Vectra is on "Ecoflex" servicing which equates to :
If on ecoflex interval it is important that only 5w/30 long life oil is used, both at time of oil change and during any top ups. If you use any other oil when topping up it compromises the 'recommended' service interval and you shoud have the vehicle serviced after 12 mnths / 20,000 miles.
When my previous Vectra-C was on this, I had the garage revert it to fixed term service intervals (12 mnths / 20,000 miles). 2 years is a long time in which something can go wrong and unnoticed.
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GB, You`re no doubt well known at the dealers as someone who knows his stuff ;) and as you know, I also do the extra oil and filter changes.
Taking it up though ( for the sake of argument) from the perspective of Long Life oil being a benefit to the Motorist and that `Fleets` are not the whole story.
I can`t help thinking there is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on at Dealer/manufacturer level regarding oil change intervals.
You see the same, identical engine of a joint venture, one on long intervals the other on short. One on 5w40, the other on longlife 5w30.. .
Then a manufacturer backdates engines that have been on a thicker oil to longlife 5w30. And the other dealer who was on conventional intervals last year (and vocal about 5w40 being essential) is suddenly gasping behind the service desk as its put on longer intervals on 5w30.
Through all this, there seems to be little if any evidence of the engine on a long service oil change actually showing reduced life. Certainly I believe the life would be reduced, but with no evidence I have to accept it may not be necessary. (even though I will always do early changes;) .
For example, there seems to be no issue such as the pre SG oil sludging that occurred during the specified oil change intervals of the time.
It seems more likely that oil related damage or wear is caused by operator error. Low oil level, running out, letting oil pressure light flicker and topping up with conventional oil.
I guess that those fully synthetic 5w30 long life oils are fantastic products, likely not needing any viscosity index improvers at all and accordingly less likely to break down.
I wonder if these oils are so good, that even without the long life service indicators on cars for which they are intended, that cars without them would benefit in being run on it to the full fixed interval, rather than being halved, as some of us do?
I suppose Main dealer seemingly `Gasping for Cash` by doubling up labour and spontaneously giving high prices off the top of the receptionists head may be part of this.
Maybe i`m just a cynic and expect too much ;)
Edited by oilrag on 06/07/2008 at 10:09
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OR, i hate to admit it, but sometimes even i think that our ways are possibly a little over zealous, our insistence against all others in most cases that we are doing the right thing.
I hope no one else reads this...will deny all knowledge of this post in a weeks time.;)
Having said that when a chap like Screwloose gave his opinions on oil change intervals in another thread, then thats good enough for me, he sees the internals all day long, and the results of neglect no doubt.
And he does know exactly what he's talking about, would be nice if he gave recommendations about general servicing too, like auto and manual gearbox oil changes, diffs and the like.
If Screwloose (or any of the other respected experts here) was to write an occasional summary/blog especially when they've had some nightmare jobs, it would be very interesting to a lot of us.
I'd love to hear how they've searched high and low for a diagnosis, and eventually cured various problems.
(bit like the cade's garage ,IIRC, section in car mechanics years ago)
So am i going to change and cut my half time oil changes, no, like me dad it was good enough to serve me well over so many years, i'll carry on just the same thanks.
I know my engines are noticeably quieter after oil changes at half or below half way point.
I'm new to this dealer servicing routine, my newest car was i think 18 months old previously, but that had done 75K, so i've never had a dealer service before, nor ever had a car under makers warranty, or i'd be using millers oils, and possibly have a steinbauer chip on it by now.
I've got these joys to come.
It will be interesting to see how my dealer performs, as i haven't been turned over so far by them, and i don't expect to TBH, i am not looking for trouble that may or may not be there. I shall of course keep my eyes open.
It will be interesting to see for example if they recommend a fuel filter change even though the maker doesn't. If they do, are they being sensibly cautious, or turning me over? I shall have it changed, though i may do it myself to have a look see if its one of the new sort you found, and i think we discussed before, the filter housings sound very similar.
As for me being known as someone who knows his stuff, more likely they realise i'm a slightly loopy old git, and humour me to get rid of me..-;)
All the best. GB
Edited by gordonbennet on 06/07/2008 at 10:51
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Of course I agree with everything you said GB about Screwloose being the expert. His guidance is what I follow, but I wrote the post from a perspective I don`t believe in to generate debate. ;) (long service oil change)
I was wondering in fact if we should all be given short essay titles to liven thing up rather than writing from our own perspective (feel free to issue one) ;)
;)
Take care
Edited by oilrag on 06/07/2008 at 11:58
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Off topic Maybe...
Why is the Vauxhall 1.3 CDTI engine every 20K in the Corsa and Agila and the Suzuki Swift and Splash are only 9.5k.
The Agila and Splash are basically the same car...
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I'm guessing becuase each company has a different marketing approach. Vauxhall sells far more cars than Suzuki. Isn't the Corsa a driving school favourite?
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Mercedes have changed from variable servicing to fixed interval of 12mths (or 12,500 / 15,500 depending on model), although there is *huge* confusion amongst owners (and apparently dealers) over how frequently the cars should be serviced.
I have to say that in my C270CDI it works perfectly - the mileage resets to 13000 after a service, but then it counts down in 100 mile intervals for approx every 150 miles the car travels, so will go to around 20K between services. The car also remembers the date, and won't go past 2 yrs without a service. In practice I use my car much less than I expected (the way my job is done changed) so last time it got to the 2yr mark.
However many owners have experienced the above working fine until the first service, then after that the car needs much more frequent servicing - with the dealers having baffled expressions and pretending not to know why that happens. Hmmmm...
In view of my lack of regular attendance at the dealership, they wrote to me and asked if I would like to move to fixed interval servicing! I said "sure - my car is on an MB service contract - ServicePlus - so service it as often as you like!" They said "Ah - as it's on a service contract we're not allowed to change it".
I've also noticed that when it goes in for service, they gleefully tell me about all the additional work required due to mileage / age - ie coolant change, auto trans fluid change etc, then when they ask how I'll be paying and I say "MB ServicePlus", their shoulders visibly drop and when I pick the car up it turns out that none of the extra work was required at all. Of course, if I'd been a cash paying customer....
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Interesting Bill..
Bazza, That`s right on topic.
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Whenever I'm round my mates car lot I usually pop in and see the mechanic on the same site, which is on average once a week.
He does some of the work on my car, or more often I'll do the work either in his workshop or in the garage of my mates car lot and grab his expertise if I need it.
Apart from routine servicing his life is spent changing K series and ecotec head gaskets, he's the local expert on these and does them for every dealer for miles around. He's also regularly doing cambelts on a wide variety of vehicles. There's some brake and suspension work being done on a regular basis too. Broken springs, worn bushes etc.
I can't remember the last time he was doing anything that was related to not changing the oil often enough. Actually I can, it was an MR2 that a customer of a car dealer had taken for a test drive when there was no oil showing on the dipstick. A set of feeler gauges wedged in the big ends and that one went of to the auction!!! That probably eight years ago!
So from that limited view of what goes wrong with cars.I don't think there's any need to change the oil twice as often as the manufacturers recommend. I've seen plenty of cars with stellar mileages on them and engine wear is a very rare occurrence.
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As a fairly new VAG customer (Skoda Superb) I have gradually become acquainted with their practices aimed at clawing back revenue via the dealer network. Briefly, my findings were as follows:
Cars supplied on a variable servicing regimen are routinely reset to fixed servicing. This happened to me when I bought my car as a 2 year old specimen. Luckily I realised what they had done and made an oil change with long life oil prior to delivery a condition of purchase - although they had just changed the oil using standard oil.
Rear pads on these cars last about 20k miles. I looked at quite a few cars of this mileage before choosing one. Despite a "n-point pre-sale check" the pads were nearly down to the backings on all the cars I saw of this mileage. Clearly deliberate neglect - with any luck the next owner would be stung for new disks as well. Dear old VAG put the pad wear warning system on the fronts which last for ever.
The VAG PD engines built in 04/05 were subject to a recall as they fitted some sub standard tandem pumps made by LUK. Bosch pumps are OK. Although this problem has been well known for at least the last 3 years, I was only notified by VAG UK when my car was out of warranty - by a few days. My car has a Bosch pump which doesn't leak so I'm keeping it well out of their way. If it went in for an inspection, I wonder what else they would "find" - or break.
VAG cambelts have a stipulated 4 year 60k mile change interval. This is a UK thing only - my friend in Holland has a VAG car with the identical engine (AWX) for which there is no time stipulation, only a distance limit. It's worth noting that all of the paperwork relating to the 4 year belt change is VAG UK generated on scrappy bits of paper. None of the printed literature supplied with the vehicle refers to it.
I believe that this is a pure scam by VAG UK and falls into the same category as the recall above - scaremongering. It's a very neat trick as it doesn't affect the fleet market, only the fear-prone private owners who will go running to their dealer for a premature belt change. What a nice little earner.
The product is fine - I'm less than enamoured of the UK representation of it, so this one will be my last.
659.
Edited by 659FBE on 06/07/2008 at 17:23
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>>Through all this, there seems to be little if any evidence of the engine on a long service oil change actually showing reduced life. Certainly I believe the life would be reduced, but with no evidence I have to accept it may not be necessary. (even though I will always do early changes;) .
Perhaps there is a reduction in engine life, but the reduced engine life is still more than adequate?
I concurr with Screwloose's notes in another thread, the cylinders I've seen of modern Vauxhall engines, and my MB have still had honing marks. The few Vauxhall engines I've seen recently (on my all too rare visits to the garage where I used to work) with serious problems have generally been caused by causes outside the oil quality. People running out of oil in poorly bedded in engines - yes. Engines trashed by fatigue failures in nasty internal/external gear oil pumps - yes. Noisy timing chains fed by an inadequate oil nozzle - yes. Oil loss via sudden oil pump gasket failure - yes. Engines blocked up with gunky sludgy mess - very unusual.
The last one I saw was a Bedford Rascal being PDId by a colleague. At first, he thought the persistent oil light was an electrical problem, a trapped wire. After removing the sump, he found oil so thick that when we tried to pour some from a beaker, none came out for half an hour!
>>(even though I will always do early changes;) .
Does not compute!
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"Does not compute!"
That`s cos computers only do logic. ;)
NC, With your Vauxhall knowledge/contacts, do you know why the 1.3 CDTI runs low viscosity long life oil/long service, contrasted with Fiats applications and the Suzuki Splash?
I`m curious as to whether the CDTI has a different filter, or other mods, or whether its identical and a matter of policy.
Cheers
Edited by oilrag on 07/07/2008 at 08:46
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>>do you know why the 1.3 CDTI runs low viscosity long life oil
I don't - I'll ask next time I get the opportunity.
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I had an out of warranty fault on the Scenic (loss of power and "check injection" warning on the display). SWMBO limped it to the dealer who plugged it into the computer while we were there and reported the fault was relating to the turbo, but would need further investigation. We left it with them, fearing the worst.
They called a couple of hours later - all done. It was a split wastegate pipe - a few quids worth of hose. There would have been plenty of opportunity to sting me for a new turbo or other expensive part, but they were completely honest. The entire bill came to less than £90 including the part, an hour's labour for the diagnostics, and replacing a blown tail light bulb that I hadn't yet got around to doing.The car has run perfectly ever since.
It worked. They have gained a loyal customer. I was impressed with the last service they did on it anyway, but this just confirmed to me that they are not in the habit of generating revenue, even when given a golden opportunity.
This is a Renault dealer, but a small, single premises family owned business, not a plate glass palace that's part of a big chain. I think that helps - they need repeat business to survive.
Cheers
DP
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