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We (that is the office) have a 55 reg MK1 Honda Civic Hybrid. Not bad to drive. It'll never be as quick as any 3 series, not as economical as any diesel, but is cheap to tax can sneak into London under the radar of Congestion Charge, solidly built. But ultimately very, very boring.
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The BMW 118d, 07 on, has under 120g/km, 140 bhp, 60+ mpg; has regenerative braking/on off engine in traffic and IIRC is CC exempt.
And it isn't a prosaic Prius or Civic!
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For me that would be a good enough reason to buy what is ultimately the best bit of kit available.
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On the other hand, a Fiat Panda 1.3 multijet will do over 70mpg, can be bought for £6,300, saving ten thousand pounds over the Prius, while being more economical on fuel.
Needs or wants?
Regards
Edited by oilrag on 24/04/2008 at 09:05
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He doesn't do much city driving (live in the country) but wants to do his bit for the environment. If anything, he probably does more motorway driving....
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In that case he should definitely go diesel. The Prius has no advantage over an efficient conventional car on the motorway.
The hybrid's CO2 benefits are a moot point outside of a city environment. If a Prius is doing 50 mpg (for arguments sake) and a diesel 60 mpg in the same circumstances, the diesel is emitting less CO2. Whatever the marketing bumpf tells you.
CO2 and mpg are directly linked.
Cheers
DP
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True, a 60mpg diesel emits less CO2 than a 50mpg petrol. But not as much as you may assume.
Don't make the mistake of directly comparing petrol and diesel mpg. The reason you get higher mpg on diesel is because there's more carbon in it. 9.6% more, according to a source I found.
So a 55mpg diesel wouldn't beat a 50mpg petrol car on CO2 emissions.
FWIW, I agree that someone doing predominantly motorway work will be better served by a diesel than a petrol hybrid.
But the other emissions (CO, HC, particulates etc) are much better for the Prius than normal petrol or diesel cars, helping the city air quality. Don't know how much that's true for other hybrids, but it was a particular design goal for the Prius (at the expense of a little efficiency).
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CO2 and mpg are directly linked. Cheers DP
Would have agreed with you in principle but in reality the figure from FIAT (who are reportedly one of the, if not THE, most efficient engine manufacurers) don't support that claim.
Look at the Grande Punto 130, it weighs less than the Bravo. The 150 Bravo burns less fuel (comb mpg) and creates an extra 20bhp in a car which weighs an extra 155kgs. We know fuel combusted = power generated so, in the case of FIAT, where is this extra BHP coming from if not from fuel combusted and not from weight savings in the vehicle ?
Edited by gmac on 26/04/2008 at 23:44
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'wants to do his bit for the environment' Now you've lit the blue touch paper! Stand well back.
Good luck
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I would find hybrids a bit more convincing if they could be plugged into the mains at night and charged on economy 7. That and the ability to travel, say 5 miles at 40 mph without the engine needing to start. A diesel electric engine that is and not petrol.
Short shopping trips would be a delight then, but until that happens and nuclear power covers more electricity generation, they seem just a showcase of technology that allegedly could have been deployed in a more satisfactory way. (diesel electric drive and mains chargeable)
Just an opinion for the sake of argument you understand ;)
Regards
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If the OP's father is using it mainly on motorways, a petrol hybrid will be the wrong choice, as others have pointed out. IIRC a Prius/Civic hybrid on motorways gets low 40s to the gallon, and is slow/strained with it. A diesel (BMW 118) would be a far better bet for a former 3-series driver on both environmental and driving satisfaction grounds.
When PSA Peugeot Citroen launch their diesel hybrid (due next year IIRC) that should be well be worth looking at. Priuses/Civic Hybrids are good at reducing local emissions in town (their original design aim) but not suited to the motorway. A diesel hybrid should be good at both.
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I've seen it said that the manufacturing of hybrids is significantly more detrimental to the environment than that of non-hybrids.
The manufacturing dimension of the environmental issue is of course always conveniently ignored by the authorities and, indeed, the companies who want us all to buy new cars. There are some convincing arguments around to suggest that running a properly maintained old car for a long time has much less impact on the environment than buying new every few years.
Good discussion above. I agree with the consensus.
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>>'wants to do his bit for the environment'
In that case, run his existing car into the ground.
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As a Prius driver, maybe my comments can help. On mainly motorway / open road driving, a 1.6 diesel Pug 307 [ which I had in Europe twice ] is more economical. I can't comment on other makes though. Around town, I can routinely match HJ's trial numbers from his road report, and sometimes better them, especially in traffic jams. On about a 50 / 50 split of driving conditions, I get within a couple of percent of HJ's numbers [ corrected for odometer error and fuel flow meter error ]. Over the last week, I have suffered more than usual traffic jams, and averaged a corrected 68.5 mpg over some 350 town miles. However, on a long run [ 400 miles/day ] it dropped to 57 mpg, admittedly with a few mountains in the way.
The Prius [ at least, the ones sold here ] are not rated for towing, so if he has any wish to tow something, forget the Prius.
Noises have often been made about battery disposal at the end of its life. The NiMH batteries are recycled for their Nickel content. It is reported that Mercedes are furiously working on a bio-degradeable Li-ion unit for their upcoming hybrids. Toyota select their batteries for 8 years life. Mine has done only 4, so I can't comment upon the accuracy of that point.
The Prius is a different animal to drive, and it took me a while to get used to recognising the change in power modes, which can result in speed increses or decreases without charge of right-foot position, said increses may go above scamera trigger points if not noticed. As I commented in another thread, the computer decides on power flow directions, not the driver.
Make sure that he has a long test drive. I find the car very comfotable, if a bit hard-riding, and had no discomfort in back-to-back 400 mile drives. However, I have heard of people who can't get comfortable in the seats.
If carying passengers is a requirement, there is a lot of room in the back of a Prius compared to cars of similar overall size.
The spare tyres supplied here are space-savers, rated for 3000 miles at max 50 mph. I haven't had to use mine yet, so can't comment on how it behaves. I would certainly not let it stay on for 3000 miles though.
If a Prius is not to be used for a fortnight or more, then disconneccting the earth cable at the auxiliary battery [ the 12-volt one ] is recommended by Toyota, as some of the auxiliaries still operate, like the hydraulic pressure pump for brake-assist. I do this when I take my trips to the European summer, [ hence the Pugs ] and have had no trouble restarting upon my return about 2 months later.
The power electrics are non-maintainable, so servicing costs are the same as for a 1.5 l petrol engined car. Mine is on 10,000 mile servicing, and has been trouble free. Bought as a 2-yr-old car with 25k on the clock, and has just had its 65 k service after exactly 2 years ownership.
Hope this ramble helps. In summary, I am pleased with my purchase but it wouldn't suit everyone. Under N.Z. conditions, it is a good way to be legally spiteful to the tax man.
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Oilrag - if local shopping trips are all you need for such a car, why not a pure electric Berlingo? Even is estate form, according to Citroen's website. 45 mile range with the full half-ton load, or 70 miles under light conditions, rechargeable from domestic plug in 7 to 9 hours.
Does anyone know of direct experience of these? I am interested because the latest N.Z. Government transport policy paper includes a target of quote widely used electric vehicles by 2015 unquote. As far as I know, Citroen is the only Major actively marketing a useable electric vehicle.
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If he wants to do his bit for the environment I suggest he gives his £16k to Greenpeace and keep his Beemer..............
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I think Citroen have quietly withdrawn the electric Berlingos. And as for giving £16,000 to Greenpeace? - I would rather burn the notes!
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Another 3 Series, ideally a 318d.
With Efficient Dynamics around town, it will cut out the engine when the car is idling, and various other features such as regenerative braking reduce the CO2 emissions further.
There was a comparison in a newspaper (which I will not name) whereby they drove a Prius and a 5 Series down to Geneva. Prius returned 48mpg on the motorway, which is decent, but the 520d gave 55 mpg and thereby emitted less CO2 (even allowing for the carbon density of diesel) despite being larger, heavier, and faster. A 318d would imrpove this by a further 10% and if that's not enough, there is probably another 3% or so in getting a 118d and thereby squeezing under the 120g/km threshold.
Plus if he buys the Beemer he won't have to worry about mining the nickel to build the battery, shipping that across the Pacific and then shipping the fully built car from Japan. Instead the car will come from Munich on a train so the CO2 output of actually building the car should be lower with the BMW; not to mention the fact that, in motorway use at least, the ongoing CO2 emissions will also be reduced over a Prius.
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If he wants to do his bit for the 'environment' and reduce greenhouse gasses, get him to kill a few cows. Their flatulence causes more damage than cars.
He can then spend his £16000 on something with a V8 and have a clear conscience :)
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"Oilrag - if local shopping trips are all you need for such a car, why not a pure electric "
Berlingo?
If it could double the range and compete with a new under £7,000 diesel on purchase cost I might be interested Gary.
One of our cars works in the community on stop start work... I can see a problem in winter though when the heater needs to be full on all day.
Fiat are to bring in a petrol electric 500 according to Auto Express....But at what price ?
Regards
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The Beemer did 50.3mpg. The Prius 48.1. Not a lot of difference considering the Prius was not in its ideal pattern of use, whilst the Beemer certainly was:)
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was not in its ideal pattern of use whilst the Beemer certainly was:)
Wasn't the Beemer a 5 series... ie next level of car up from a prius....
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"'wants to do his bit for the environment' "
Hybrid cars do NOTHING for the environment.
The reduction in CO2 is so tiny that if every mode of transport used by every person in the world switched to hybrids it would make no difference to "the environment" whatsoever - but you might save a bit in Tax and Congestion charge (CO2 congestion - what's that?)
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PhilW, I think that you are right. Recent geological research into ice cores, deep-sea cores and similar indicate that the effect of CO2 is logarithmic along the lines of the law of diminishing returns. i.e., putting more CO2 into the atmosphere does not produce anything like a proportionally similar temperature rise. A Professor Bob Carter, who specialises in this field, actually put his evidence on You Tube for public debate. [ I haven't looked it up, but have looked at the written work ] His thesis indicates that we could burn every known bit of fossil fuel and might get a one degree warming attributable to CO2. Water vapour is far more vicious as a temperature increaser, right up there with methane, but, of course, the pushers of fuel cells and hydrogen-burning cars don't want us to know that. { motoring link }.
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"we could burn every known bit of fossil fuel and might get a one degree warming attributable to CO2. Water vapour is far more vicious as a temperature increaser,"
Thanks Gary for that reference - will look it up - was beginning to think that I am going mad - I cannot see the link between the importance attributed to CO2 in "global warming" (and therefore taxing cars according to CO2 emissions) and the figures produced by the IPCC
See also mypost at end of thread
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=62...4
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5 series: 0.4 m longer, 0.020m wider than a Prius. Not an order of magnitude different. Weight of Beemer say 250kg greater: equal to 1.5 Bavarians:)
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I have a customer who has a Golf diesel with DSG, so auto like the Hybrids and he reckons on 45 mpg. Worth a look but Hybrids make sense if the requirement is for an auto, something that few ever seem to catch onto here.
I see ALOT of Civic Hybrids around my way, they seem very popular and id be inclined, if it was between that and a Prius, to go for the Honda.
It comes down to gearbox needs though as many of the small diesels are no better than a Hybrid with an autobox mpg wise and worse on CO2.
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1' 6" longer in a car is a fair bit extra interior space!
Then there's the extra CO2 produced in the production of the Prius compared with the Beemer...
Going back to the beginning - if he's driving around in town all the time at less than 30mph then its probably worth it, if not then any decent same-sized diesel is better "for the environment".....
Edited by b308 on 25/04/2008 at 09:42
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Not necessarily: remember the American barges? The Prius is better in stop, start and local driving, on minor roads,etc so we aren't in disagreement, broadly. However, what extra CO2? Maybe you're referring to the discredited report which made out the Hummer to be less energy consuming than the Prius. Maybe you have some facts to go with the assertion?
Edited by nortones2 on 25/04/2008 at 10:24
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Ok N you're obviously the expert on it and I will bow to your superior knowledge...
But as the batteries are only in use at reletavely slow speeds and the op said that it was not going to be used for mainly town work means that a similar sized diesel would probably work out less "polluting".... and my comment re CO2 also related to the extra pollution in building such a car with all the extra equipment compared with a conventional petrol/diesel....
But, hey! You're the expert! ;)
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I thought you said the BMW was bigger? Thus taking more energy to build:) BTW, the 2 electric motors are in use at speeds above urban, by being available when necessary to add torque. The ICE is pretty small, low torque, so the electric motors fill in the gaps as it were. The motors add power to the transmission, as well as charge up the batteries on the run, by acting as generators. www.ecrostech.com/prius/original/PriusFrames.htm
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As I said you're the expert *roll eyes*
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I never claim to be an expert, as there are many real ones on this board. However, if you make a claim re CO2 production, at least make an effort to explain. You were given the opportunity.
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Simple, really - the extra size of the BM will cost little in extra in steel or energy to make, than a car of the Prius's size - we're only talking bigger body panels which still need a press to make them, regardless of size of car...
However, in addition the Prius has loads of extra equipment connected with the hybrid drive that the Beemer, or any other ordinary petrol or diesel car don't - all that lot costs extra CO2 to make - so the supposed gains of the hybrid are partially/wholly lost(dependant on where and how driven) by the extra CO2 used in production. As others have said the use to which he will be putting the car makes it questionable whether he's actually going to be less polluting than driving a modern diesel, to which I agree. In addition they used a 5 series, the gain for the diesel would have been more had they used a similar sized car to the Prius.
Edited by b308 on 26/04/2008 at 08:47
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>> was not in its ideal pattern of use whilst the Beemer certainly was:) >> Wasn't the Beemer a 5 series... ie next level of car up from a prius....
More like two or three levels up, the Prius doesn't look like it's even as big as a 3 Series to me, although I will admit that I haven't actully checked this!
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Voted the "Worlds Greenest Car" - BMW 118d......
So I believe by journalists - perhaps HJ could advise us more?
Edited by b308 on 26/04/2008 at 16:27
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No doubt the Prius seems terrifically green in the moronic town of Los Angeles, where people drive about in Hummers and things. But since it is clear to us that much better driver's and passengers' cars are just as green, or greener, or nearly as green, we don't have any particular need to buy the thing unless we like its part-time silence or are beguiled by its ingenuity. A small diesel or one-litre roller skate would be greener, nippier and handier at half the price, a 5 series BMW diesel would be more or less comparable in greenery terms while being vastly preferable in every other way.
There are a lot of Priuses in my part of London though, fortunately compensated for by even greater numbers of Porsches and the odd Maserati and Ferrari.
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>>In that case he should definitely go diesel.<<
Unfortunatley statements like this are very ignorant and do not consider the bigger picture.
The problem is the only measure of being green in the UK is CO2 because most of the UK population are being conned into thinking that is all that matters - you can't blame them because our whole taxation regime is based on this. So people start thinking like Brown & Darling which is a worry.
When you look at all the emmissions a car produces then the hybrid does make sense - particularly around town and city driving. Also when any diesel manufacturer can back up their technology with an 8 year warranty as Toyota and Honda do with the electric part of the power train then you realise how good they really are.
People also think that hybrids are failry new but they are not. The Prius was conceived originally as a replacment for the Corolla - Toyota called it Project 2000 (I think) when it was supposed to deliver much reduced emmissions for a Corolla replacement in 2000. Toyota thought back in the mid 90s that there would be a need for such a car and so set about designing and manufacturing it then. Honda thought along similar lines which shows that even then they were thinking for the long term. Toyota had similar projects running to produce the cleanest diesels which they also did with the D-CAT engines. When the EU decided that cars were too dirty and needed cleaning up (even more) in the late 90s they introduced tighter limits (EU V just about to become legislative). Toyota had the technology to clean up diesels at the time and pushed the EU to force the legislation earlier - they promised that they would sell their technology under licence to all other manufacturers and we could all drive very clean and efficient hybrid and diesel cars. The EU declined (under pressure from european manufacturers) and waited years before enforcing tighter emmissions levels. So when it comes to being green and friendly to the environment the EU are fully supportive providing it does not harm european business (very hypocritical IMO). Now MB are starting to catch up with Bluetec then the playing field is a bit more level but Toyota were there years ago.
To answer the question then I think the Civic would be my choice mainly because of price. The Prius is dearer.
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If this was for driving in town - in London - then no question - 90% of Civic hybrids get sold there.
The list price for the Civic hybrid is around £18000, for that you can get a 1 series 118d with delivery miles - which is as economical and a much better all round car, or at a push a s/h 320/520d, or a golf bluemotion, or a mini cooper D (106g/km CO2), etc, etc.
The Civic CVT is a very, very dull car to drive - with little or no involvement (it gets to 30mph very nicely) - and it's not at all good to drive on country roads (those big batteries). For some reason Honda put the package together in the Japanese civic instead of the Swindon car - mistake.
If you're 65+ then it's the dogs'.
;-)
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