Hi Everyone,
My 2005 Volkswagen Polo 1.4 petrol (Manual) has just been for it's first MOT and failed it - which has really surprised me. The car has only done just over 21,000 miles and has mostly been kept in a garage - so I had thought it was in pretty good condition.
It failed it's MOT on:
Front Wheels Brakes Imbalanced
Although to me it drives ok. It was tested at my local Kwik Fit, where the service seeme quite good. I've got it booked in for a free brake test on Wednesday morning to try to get to the bottom of the problems.
I am interested if anyone else has experienced this and what the problem might be.
The car is still in warranty (just), so if there are any repairs needed (other than wear and tear) I'll be booking it in to my local Volkswagen dealer sharpish!
My last car, a Fiat Marea, never failed any of the 5 MOTs I owned it for .... the Polo was bought new and like I say, I'm quite stunned that such a low mileage car failed the MOT!
Any thoughts appreciated.
Thanks
ScottieP
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 14/01/2008 at 13:58
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7k miles / year and keeping it in the garage has probably seized the brakes up, or rusted a disc. It might well free up / clean up if you give the brakes a good thrashing.
If the caliper is seized you might get a new one from VW, but I suspect not.
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Scottie
By the time the imbalance is serious enough to fail the MOT, you usually would notice it pulling one way when braking.
It is odd that some MOT stations fail a high proportion on brakes - and others, who don't make their living out of brake work, don't......
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Thanks Chaps,
Interestingly, I've just spoken to my local VW dealer who has said it sounds like I need to replace my discs and pads!
I haven't noticed the car pulling one way or another under braking but am about to take it for a drive to check again.
I was wondering about a Kwik Fit conflict of interest as it were .... them being a brake service business - but I don't want to be too cynical.
ScottieP
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At 21k it will probably need pads as most of mileage being done round town or on short journeys I would think the discs are quite worn.
tinyurl.com/2f7tjr
Very cheap and a doddle to fit.
the world's longest link (158 characters) shrunk to a manageable proportion !
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 14/01/2008 at 16:01
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New pads and discs may not fix the problem, but it certainly is one of the easier fixes, if applicable.
On older cars, the fitment of new pads and discs often has the effect of causing brake imbalance. Certainly sounds like one of the calipers is siezed.
Upon braking there may be a momentary dipping of the car or pulling of the front of the car to one side. This quickly corrects itself as the increased pressure in the system finally pushed the pistons out and hence goes un-noticed.
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When you fit the new ones you spray a bit of lube on the pistons and they will uncease but as I said at 21k they will want doing.
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Thanks Folks,
It's not something I'm going to fix myself - I just want to understand the problem better and how to get it fixed. I've just dropped into my local VW garage and a helpful guy from the service dept came out and looked at the front wheels and said there isn't anything obvious from an outside visual inspection (i.e. the brake pads and discs look fine from the outside). Kwik Fit are going to do their Brake test on Wednesday morning, so I'll hopefully have a full understanding of the problem then.
Thanks again and I'll report back on Wednesday.
Cheers
ScottieP
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>>By the time the imbalance is serious enough to fail the MOT, you usually would notice it pulling one way when braking.
I'm almost afraid to ask the following, as it's questioning SL's reply:
Don't all modern cars have "negative offset steering geometry" or other such devices, which would automatically counteract any pull to one side caused by a braking imbalance?
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Yes; negative scrub radius geometry was indeed first publicized by VW on a K70[?] back in the 70's - but I don't think that they actually invented the system where assymetric braking forces impart a counteracting steering input.
Even with it; the amount that brakes have to be out to fail the MOT will show-up a front imbalance - though never a rear one as 95% of braking is on the front.
It's child-play to fake on the rollers - you just get the assistant to lean on the front wing......
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Do you think a few really hard braking episodes would clear it up?
(I always get MOT`s done at the Council transport dept )
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I was wondering about a Kwik Fit conflict of interest as it were .... them being a brake service business - but I don't want to be too cynical.
I think you're right to be cynical. Since I opted out of the company car scheme I have fortunately never 'had' to go to Kwik Fit since and want to keep it that way !
This issue with the 3 year old Polo must surely be curable with a little manipulation of the disc calipers and then a good hard drive with plenty of hard braking instances, surely no 3yr old car with such low mileage would need new pads or discs.
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It may or may not have failed properly at the mot station. It's brakes, its not worth the risk to assume its a dodgy test result. It could easily be a genuine result.
Lack of use of brakes is as bad, or worse than heavy use of thebrakes for allowing pads to become ineffective, discs to corrode, and/or calipers to seize/stick.
For the sake and cost of a set of pads and discs, which will reveal if the caliper is free or not too then its best advise and will almost certainly cure it.
As for brake imbalance; nearly every car on the road has some; its just how much that matters!
The performance figures would be inteesting to see though.
Other problems could include brake hose/s, master cylinder amongst others but on the age of the vehicle I would be surprised at them. Don't forget its been 3 years since the brakes were tested unless they were tested at service time (unlikely in most cases unless wear or problems were reported/evident).
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My Golf failed its 2nd MoT on brake imbalance, mileage was 115,000 on the original discs and pads.
The effect when driving was to experience a slight fluctuation in braking effect, when softly applying the brakes to bring the car to a gentle halt from approx 10 mph.
This was due to some disc variation (be it friction, thickness, warping) on each disc, which when both front wheels were synchronised, hardly made any effect, but if, as during the MoT test, purely by chance, they were 180 degrees opposed, then greater than 35% imbalance was recorded/indicated.
New discs and pads were fitted to pass the MoT. The originals were hardly worn however.
To prevent recurrence, I have now adopted a brake "cleaning" procedure. Once a day, at an appropriate point, I brake the vehicle fairly hard down from 60 mph to 35 mph. I think its having the desired effect.
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115,000mls on original pads and discs? don't you use your brakes? what have you got a parachute/anchor!!
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Discs and pads don't need replacing on a three year old car
Just replaced some on a 1007 2 years old with 21k down to the metal and discs well worn.
I find that 115,000 miles unbelievable.
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My old Xsara has made it to 100k on two sets of pads and the original discs.
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As a counter post - it depends where you live and how regularly the brakes are used as to how quickly disks corrode:
nearly 30 years ago I had a new volvo 240 - disks all round - it was used in bursts, two or three days then left standing outside for two or three days, in the very damp atmosphere of a cotton/silk town in the north west.
The disks were shot inside 3 years, although the balance was similar the efficiency was well down.
Equally, it must be said the Punto I bought at a year old which had been standing for some months before I bought it, had rough/rusty disks, but some enthusiast braking in the peak district cleaned them up.
In respect of the OP's problem though, the mentions above of enthusiastic braking, and then taking it somewhere with no agenda, would be a worthwhile approach.
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Blimey. I get about 20k out of a set of pads, and usually the discs are past their best then as well. I put it down to the constant stop/start rush hour driving the car is asked to do 5 days a week, as well as the irritating "concertina" effect of the M3 and M25 in rush hour.
I agree though - brakes hate inactivity. Over the years when "resurrecting" various vehicles (2 and 4 wheeled) that have been stored or not had much use, it's always the brakes that need the most attention.
Cheers
DP
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FAO bigtee
ref< >
85% of mileage is Motorway use, good eyesight, lots of anticipation, full use of Trafficmaster facilities to avoid snarl ups, oh and a 1.9 litre engine with apprx 20:1 compression ratio, so brakes hardly used at all.
Also note that although I use the engine for braking, at 159,000 mls I'm still on original clutch. However, I'm now using the brakes more as I dont think the clutch will last for ever, and as HJ says its easier to change discs and pads than clutches. Downside is sacrificing the thermal efficiency of heating cylinders up for the next combustion event.
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Thanks for all the replies and words of wisdom. The problem is now solved and I have my MOT. Went back to Kwik Fit this morning for their brake check and what had happened is that the left front brake had got a bit rusty and sticky and wasn't moving freely (the brake pad was sticking). The pads only about half used and discs are fine - so nothing needed replacing. A quick clean up and it sailed through a re-test ..... so everyone who said it's probably lack of use and a damp garage - were absolutely right.
I guess it's something I'll have to keep an eye on in future ... unless we start doing more mileage.
Thanks again everyone .... and I have to say the Kwik Fit guys were actually all very helpful.
Cheers
ScottieP
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>>and I have to say the Kwik Fit guys were actually all very helpful.
Gulp!
I guess a few others here will be swallowing hard as well ;>)
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Among the bad stuff I've heard, I've also heard a few good stories like this as well. As with any franchised organisation, it depends who's running the particular branch that you visit, and how stringent their recruitment policy is.
Cheers
DP
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As someone who's had to "de-programme" a couple of ex-[well-known fast-fit-chain] fitters; the stories that they tell of their [100% profit-orientated] training courses......
It may be significant that the OP arrived armed with both an understanding of his car and good advice - always a wise move - then you don't sound like a easy victim.
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Screwloose,
I agree with comments that arriving with some knowledge and being prepared to debate things is probably a strong position to start from. It makes you tougher to take for a ride ... i.e. helps ensure you don't come across as a soft touch. The info from everyone here certainly helped me.
I'm never sure whether a "shiny" chain or a "grubby back streets" place is best .... I tend to go for the shiny chains.
Thanks again.
ScottieP
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I know the thread is old but my experience with a Golf Mk2 very is relevant here becasue it had exactly the same problems with the front disc brakes, and I was doing about 20K miles a year. 15 years ago the dealers were saying to replace both discs and pads, but I actually did that TWICE over a period of a couple of years and it didn't help. The answer was to replace the discs but keep the old pads (which were proper vw pads).
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