pda you are wasting your time
until someone has driven something bigger than a loaded transit they dont care
until someone has been cut up while driving something like a loaded transit they dont understand
yes there are cowboy truckers like anything else but i drive anything and everything and as you know you just have to scream and shout in your cab because if you get out and confront the muppets on a daily basis you are either going to end up killing one ,being killed ,or,going insane from the hassle
10/4 and have a nice trip
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Hmm another one of the PDA crowd!!!
Why did Pat bother starting a thread on a forum that is not totally anti truck, only a few of the posters are like that here, but many more understand and respect the extra size of a truck - maybe if her post was more constructive and less combative it would have received better replies, but then that has never really been her way has it!
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>>feel free to criticize AFTER you answer the question at the start of the thread
Doesn't it really answer the question, that you have to ask a question that implies these HGVs can't operate (in the dynamic sense) on ordinairy roads?
Why should such dynamically incapable 40+ ton vehicles be allowed on the roads?
We have a perfectly good invention called 'railways' - the only reason such monstrosities are allowed is because the powerful & persistent road haulage lobby has pushed for the gross weight limits to be increased to such an extent that these vehicles are totally out of sync with modern road conditions & ambient traffic dynamics. The fact that they seem to require special treatment from other road users suggests a case of QED.
Edited by woodbines on 31/12/2007 at 00:46
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woodbines by your handle i assumed you were over 50 and understood the beecham plan
i now realise you have neither had a woodbine (nasty foul things because the tobacco was so loosely mixed in the paper, or seen that the infrastructure of this country was ruined by beeching in the mid 1960"s at the governments bequest)
ps.ive just returned from a country now in the eu that understands these problems and travelled its breadth for less than a £5
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Luxembourg? :-)
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no ;-)
have another
free try
on me :-)
i will give you a clue the border checks have been shut down but three miles into the next country we had police with guns cameras and no smiles :-(
Edited by bell boy on 31/12/2007 at 01:05
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Beeching cut mostly, branch lines & unprofitable commuter/local services, but also some inter city & town stations/routes. The trunk routes were largely unaffected - those same trunk routes are now where the motorways carry the modern equivalent 'road trains' or 44 tonners . Road haulage interests rely on the effective subsidy of private motorists in paying for their 'track' & the supine govt. response to road hauliers demands for & commissioning of, ever larger vehicles.
Once haulage became 'uncoupled' from the British Rail network in the mid to late 70's (haulage from & to rail depots by smaller trucks) it paved the way for the chaos, overcrowding & inefficiency of having oversized vehicles doing the jobs of both.
Large pantechnicons will probably be consigned to history in the next 15-20 years as cheap oil becomes a thing of the past, and not too soon either!
Woodbines cigarettes could be relied on to draw well & were available in 5's - prerequisites for a young smoker!
Edited by woodbines on 31/12/2007 at 01:35
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Well, 96 replies and still no-one has answered the original question.
Even TU, who 'knows me from elsewhere' and is usually far more articulate, has failed to come up with an answer!!
In view of this I'll throw my theory in and see what reaction it gets, and it should throw a bit of light on why I chose to post on this forum about this subject in the first place.
I've been reading these forums now for some years and have grown to respect the views most of you have on a variety of subjects. I had most of you down as highly intelligent, well educated and in the most part, Professsional car drivers, and I thought this would be my best chance of getting some constructive replies.
I think most of you are capable of realising that in any queue of traffic a lorry will never be able to accelerate away as fast as the car in front of him in a stop start situation.
That means there will always be a gap big enough for a car driver to nip into sooner than joining the back of the queue 2 miles back.
The car driver is right, and does 'nip in whilst braking' but behind him the lorry is accelerating with the gusto needed to get 44 tones on the move again.
Can you see the problem now?
Is your journey more important than those other people in the queue 2 miles back, who have chosen to be polite and considerate and safe?
Is that the action of a professional car driver who takes pride in his standard of driving?
You all tend to forget that we're all car drivers too, and on Saturday we had to travel from Cambs to Kent on the M11.
We'd just remarked at how well the motorway runs when there are hardly any lorries on it, and marvelled at the fact that we were able to do 75MPH in the inside lane on the 2 lane stretch. ( We also remarked that we could understand you hating us for spoiling this!)
Suddenly it all came to a halt, and 45 minutes later we reached the problem.
3 cars in a shunt in the outside lane, caused completely by the low, late afternoon sun, making brake lights almost impossible to see.
Now how exasperating is that for 2 lorry drivers who simply DON'T want to sit on the M11 when they're not at work?
In 2008 the PDA will be working more and more at awareness between different road users and general driver safety.
We're working hard ( voluntarily in our spare time) at compiling a leaflet to hand out at shows and make available in other places, to car drivers about blind spots, and the classic things that cause accidents.
We're not pointing the finger of blame anywhere, just trying to raise awareness of what should be taught in any vehicle test and training.
Wherever possible we try and get the general public into a lorry to demonstrate some of these points, but sadly with insurance companies not allowing passengers it's getting harder and harder for us to be able to offer a 'day out riding shotgun'.
We need to do our research somewhere, and I pretty much had you lot down as a good bunch of drivers, who could answer some questions fairly and squarely.
It seems this isn't so.
Pat
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A mate of mine sadly no longer with us once said, "As a lorry driver the light are always against you."
VBR MD
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OK PDA here is an answer to your orginal questions.
>Is your journey really that important?
yes - just as important as yours. People are using the motorway to get sales that keeps you in a job. Without them you are trucking nothing nowhere and you are down the dole office.
>Is your life really so unimportant?
My life is very important, however some truck drivers seem to consider it worthless judged by the number that decide to pull out in front of me on a dual carriageway when I am inches away from reaching the rear tailboard, or the ones that want to occupy the bit of road I am on by driving inches from my rear bumper*
>Is your consideration and regard for every other road user so low?
Its as high as any other road user, certainly as high as certain truckers.
Now dont get me wrong, I am not anti truck. I appreciate how much roadspace they need, I appreciate they cant always see you, In fact sometimes that car behind preventing other cars from taking your turning space is me.
However, A drive along the A14 from the A1 to the M6 will provide any anti trucker with a wealth of hate material. Streams of trucks pushing cars out of the way to get into the outside lane, so they can overtake a truck 1/2 mile away thats doing 1mph less.
Is YOUR journey really that important PDH that you need to drive like that?
*is YOUR life so unimportant that you will drive two feet behind the truck in front, just so you can keep up momentum and save 5mpg?
When you can convince SOME of your fellow truckers NOT to bully and intimidate other road users then ALL you truckers will get respect
Till then you get the respect you deserve, which at the moment aint much.
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AE- don't forget the A14 t'other way from Huntingdon to Cambridge..... :-)
I think that many car drivers could do better in thinking 'with' other road users, rather than ploughing on blithely with their minds in neutral. A particular example often seen is of a car keeping pace on the outside of a lorry on a busy dual carriageway (like the aforementioned A14). Car and lorry are doing about 56mph, but lorry is catching up pretty quickly on a slower vehicle in its lane. A moment's consideration could see the car driver backing off ever so slightly to open up a gap into which the lorry could slip - but oh, no, the car driver resolutely keeps pace with the lorry. So what happens? Either the lorry driver uses 'force' and pulls out anyway, causing danger and ill-feeling all round, panic 'concertina wave' braking etc. Or the lorry has to brake - again usually causing knock-on braking and standstill traffic behind.
At peak commuting times, average speed is pretty much the same for all vehicles on the road, so allowing lorries in front doesn't really affect journey time significantly.
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Oh dear, i wasn't going to be drawn on this anymore.
pda, you are being confrontational on a forum that by and large is used by a complete bunch of crackpots, sorry a bunch of generally decent road users of the common sense head variety, thats not to say the start of this sentence was far from the truth.
I believe you are taking this problem far too seriously and would probably get a much better (maybe not for you) response by going on a forum peopled by some much younger and far more experienced drivers than we will ever be.
I've been i hope a reasonable hgv'er for some 30 and a few (say no more) years, its always been a bit of a battle out there, but i for one am supposed to be the pro (go on have a good chuckle again you blighters) so again i say to you i am very well paid, (and it is my job not just a way of getting about) and it is my responsibility to take account of others failings (as well as my own) and to drive accordingly.
If you find that you can no longer cope then maybe a career change is in order.
Hgv driving if you do it properly is not just another job, its a way of life, sadly not many old school left, as i find every day when some of the most appalling stunts are now pulled by hgv drivers, which presumably some buffoon has let them pass a driving test of some description.
Is that part of the problem, are hgv schools only teaching to pass a test instead of drive a truck competently?
Lets dispel one big myth about this blind spot issue, ie if you are a pro it does not exist.
Modern vehicles are fitted with an array of mirrors on the opposite side to the driver, and every vehicle i have driven i have been able to adjust those mirrors to completely cover the n/s area of my particular truck. Course it helps if you keep them clean, again my job.
This isn't science, just common sense, and the drivers responsibility, not the car drivers responsibiltiy to keep out of the way.
The drivers of left hookers have been getting away with the most dreadful driving in recent years, i'm old enough to remember seeing some of the most careful and considerate driving by the lorries from the old Soviet bloc countries when in Britain, compare them to the cowboys running willy nilly all over the shop now, spinning cars round daily on our motorways, and woe betide anyone who thinks they can judge how a foreign truck will negotiate a roundabout, and they seem to care not a jot.
Bicycles in towns are another thing, it is my responsibility to know at all times what and who is in the area to be swept by my vehicle whenever i move it, are hgv'ers really that bad now that they wouldn't know if a child had walked up to the edge of the path just before they made a left turn, makes me shudder to think there are hgv'ers out there that really don't know whats going on around them.
Should imagine my name will stink on your truckers forum, but we have to admit standards have fallen drastically over the years (same with my typing methinks) and we should be putting our own house in order before criticising others.
Alter Ego and many others have made very valid points, and he is right about many truckers using the vehicle as a weapon to force the issue.
And no i'm not a pedant that travels everywhere at 40mph, they cause as much of a problem as anyone, if we maintain normal progress, and leave decent stopping distances and keep our cool and do our best, then maybe our standing would improve just a little.
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Woodbines, I have worked for companies that have tried the rail route for goods - it is just not quick enough for our modern lifestyle. A parcel courier I worked for have had 2 attempts to use it - the 1st was by using 20ft containers and filling them then sending them from London to Glasgow overnight - but quite often the containers got lost on route ending up with up to a 3 month delay until they found them again!!! They then had special trailers made that could be piggybacked on rolling stock, but it was found it was actually quicker by quite a few hours for a driver to leave Glasgow and a driver to Leave London, meet half way and swap trailers then return to their depots - this could be done in about 9-10 hours (the company runs on british domestic hours regulations so can run 10 hours a day), which was far quicker then could be achieved by train.
At present fares are rising as there is not the capacity on the rail network, it is also not easy to increase capacity on rail is it!!! It gets used fo some goods transport, but most of that is non time critical, and it is consumers who are demanding these time criticle goods, so is down to you and I!!
Modern trucks have far better suspension systems and 44ton over 6 axles is better then 38 ton over 5 axles, 7.3 ton per axle as opposed to 7.6 ton per axle - so the weight increase is actually better for the road surface, cuts on lorry miles as more product can be fitted on one truck so is better for the environment. If, and it's a big if, the UK are allowed to run road trains of 2 trailers this would cut the impact of trucks still further - obviously they would be restricted in use.
With the amount of goods carried by road there is not a hope in hells chance that rail will ever become a viable alternative again - it had it's day but times change.
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I'm absolutely pro-truck, but I'm definitely not particularly pro-truck driver!
As soon as anyone drives a truck, they must accept its size and its performance limitations, and the behaviour of the traffic around you, and drive the vehicle accordingly. It takes more skill, and more anticipation, and more advanced reading of the road ahead to make good smooth progress in a truck - but, you keep saying how professional you all are, so that shouldn't be a big problem to you.
As I've mentioned in many previous posts, I'm from a background that includes garages and trucks. I've seen examples of really good truck driving, and I've repaired the damage caused by some bad examples!
As given above, for truck drivers to get the respect and co-operation of car drivers, they need to earn it. Bullying tactics and rolling roadblocks while one pig ignorant driver inches past another do absolutely nothing for truck drivers' credibilty.
Arguments appealing to the need to conserve momentum don't win me over either. Never have trucks performed as well as they do now. Going back 25 years or so, 220 BHP and 6 gears were a typical specification for a 30 tonne 8 wheeler - now, I would expect that 350BHP and 12 gears would be considered a poverty spec vehicle at that wieght.
What is the stopping distance of a truck from 30mph?
Number_Cruncher
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I have rarely had problems with trucks. In fact it is not uncommon to find truck drivers showing consideration for other drivers. White vans, well that is another matter.
My understanding is that truck drivers are more highly trained than normal drivers, and they realise that the load is heavy and requires care and if they get done for dangerous driving they lose their job. On the other hand, white vans require no special training, and are often driven very badly by rather hot headed people who think they are in a 'hot hatch'.
Edited by Leif on 31/12/2007 at 11:42
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NC i accept your points and you are quite right, the mentality of the driver is paramount.
On bhp, had this discussion with my BIL who is transport mgr for international old established haulier, he also had his own fleet in years gone by.
We come up with the rough estimate that to get the same amount of sheer guts (read torque and low revved grunt) from a modern truck you have to have say a 450 to 500bhp to compare to the road performance of a 290 some 20 to 25 years ago.
I suppose its all the emission equipment, but even though they are fine once up to cruising speed, modern trucks are completely gutless at pulling awy from stationary, and trying to overtake say a tractor is a formidable proposition.
The truck i drive now has 420hp, weighs 22 tons empty anything from 35 to 42 tons loaded (depends on the vehicles carried obviously) and has quite good aerodynamics, its fine on the motorway, but pulling away with the automated manual is just pathetic.
Compare to my cummins 14 litre engined 320 from 1984, with if i remember 90% of max torque available at 800 rpm, grossed 38 tons and was better on fuel than my present (more computers than you can shake a stick at) one.
The cummins pulled like a train and would easily maintain 60 mph at under 1000 rpm, it only had 8 gears but in practice you only needed 4th upwards unless very hilly.
The new one is revving its little heart out at 1450 rpm at 55 mph.
Dont know where all this progress is.
I dare say the modern engine stacks up favorably on paper, but on the road they don't hold a candle to the old stuff.
Looking forward to some of your calculations now.
Regards everyone.
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Woodbines may be you should speak to a rail freight operator before posting....
The biggest problem with Rail freight is Pasenger trains. Trains of all sorts require trackspace and lots of it sometimes in excess of 20 miles (distance between trains). These pathways as they are known are given out to all operators based on a number of criteria. But the only way to build more space in the system is build new tracks that only trains can use and very often only cetain types. Roads typically are used every one hense they are popular and cheaper to construct.
I don't count my self as a road haulier although I am more than happy to be called one but I own a vehicle logistics company and if my customer wants to to go to a rail head then fine. In fact one of my customers moves huge amoubts of vehicles from Factory to port but rather than use the channel tunnel they load them onto a car carrier and ship then to a UK. The only real reason is cost - because every £ extra will be passed on to the end customer
And so the reason why " demands for & commissioning of ever larger vehicles " is that I can move 12 cars easily and cost effectively if I move only 6 the cost of ruunning the truck is almost identical.
Funnily enough my most profitable work on new cars is collecting from railheads as delivery is ussually within a 75 mile radius and vey often I can get two loads a day out of a wagon on this work. But you need to understand not every car or van fits on a rail wagon.
Lastly some of the rail operators are "commercial" and will turn down work after all there aren't many new cars coming out of Scotland and Wales and they will be looking to fill that train for the return journey!!
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Paul l, point(s) taken.
Edited by woodbines on 31/12/2007 at 12:20
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I just thought let me give you a typical week for one of my vehicles just to give you some idea of size weight etc
- Volvo FM series with a very clever 12 car capacity or 3-4 large vans. 420 bhp semi auto box and 400 ltr fuel tank. does about 7.5 mpg on a average.
So the week goes something like this
Mon - Kent - Midlands (Load 1 -new cars) Midlands to N west (Load 2 -nearly new cars)
Tue - Liverpool - Southampton (Load 3 - new cars for export) Southampton to Swindon (empty)
Wed - Swindon - Gent (cars for european export Load 4 ) Gent - Calais (empty)
Thurs - Calais - Kent (new cars load 5) Kent - Essex/Herts, Essex (Load 6 - new imports)
Fri - Essex (Load 6 - around SW London) Surrey (Auction House - Load 7 back to yard)
So there you go a week on the road....
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>>feel free to criticize AFTER you answer the question at the start of the thread Doesn't it really answer the question that you have to ask a question that implies these HGVs can't operate (in the dynamic sense) on ordinairy roads? Why should such dynamically incapable 40+ ton vehicles be allowed on the roads? We have a perfectly good invention called 'railways' - the only reason such monstrosities are allowed is because the powerful & persistent road haulage lobby has pushed for the gross weight limits to be increased to such an extent that these vehicles are totally out of sync with modern road conditions & ambient traffic dynamics. The fact that they seem to require special treatment from other road users suggests a case of QED.
First of all these "dynamically incapable 40+ ton vehicles " can stop as quickly as an 18 tonne truck, and can stop a lot lot quicker than any truck could when the maximum weight limit was 32 tonnes
as you must be well aware the rail network cannot cope with passengers, yet alone freight, but even if it could cope, I can't see the manager of woolworths nipping down to the local rail head to collect his good, so it needs trucks to move it again so now one load will be carried to the rail head by truck, then carried away from the rail head by truck, that will instantly double the amount of trucks needed to do the job, but it is worse because you don't want big trucks, you want small ones. if you want 18 tonne trucks you will now need 6 trucks and a train to do the job of one truck, 7 1/2 tonne truck, now we are up to 14 trucks and a train to do the job of one 40 tonne truck..need I go on, will you be happy paying all the extra costs, because I won't!! or do you think the tax payer should subsidize freight on rails the same as it does passengers, better we get more cars off the roads into these passenger trains if we are going to use the railways as the infrastructure is already there..then maybe they won't feel the need to occupy other drivers safety zone as the roads will be far less crowded
But to bring it back onto topic, be it a 7 1/2 tonne truck, car , bike or 40 tonne truck, someone cutting into your safety zone in putting themselves in danger but put the onus onto the person they pull in front of..I will say again feel free to criticize AFTER you answer the question at the start of the thread
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I take it you've never heard of "piggy back" trains, bz?
Stick the trailer on a train in Scotland and transport it by rail to the south of England, then hitch it up again - container traffic works the same way....
I agree with the previous poster - long distance stuff should be on the trains, not roads, safer and cleaner for all of us then...
But as you correctly say that would need an expansion of the rail network, and the Road Lobby who run this country won't allow that, will they!
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