......... I have not had ANY car I've driven leave me stranded for more than 15 years.........
I'm not going with that breakdown cover! ;)
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>> ......... I have not had ANY car I've driven leave me stranded for more than 15 years......... I'm not going with that breakdown cover! ;)
Very good :).
And I thought that waiting 10 years for service was acceptable. It works for BT!
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Hugo,
You give 'em an edit button and still......
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> Surely the days when reliability was a serious issue have long gone. I have not had ANY car I've driven leave me stranded for more than 15 years.
Ultimately I think this is quite right.
Just as there is no such thing as a car with a poor quality build, or a car with a truly low-quality interior, or a car that is bad to drive.
All mass-produced cars are a compromise between various factors -- no car is perfect in all areas. But, just as there are cars that are better to drive, or better to look at, so there are cars that are more reliable.
FWIW I don't think Citroens are unreliable. From personal experience of friends and family who have owned them, and a mountain of anecdotal evidence, Renault have had massive quality control and reliability problems -- these are well documented, look at the way Renault are constantly referring to their new cars as being higher quality than before yada yada -- they've been stung badly by all the negative press, and not without good reason. Peugeot also seem to have tried to be a little too clever with some of their recent models. But while I would hesitate to buy a Citroen over a Far-Eastern car unless the price was right, I certainly don't turn up my nose at them.
At the end of the day, some manufacturers build cars that last and last, and others don't. Reliability issues only really come to a head at around 5 or 6 years old -- prior to that it's mostly daft little niggly things that, if they failed on an older car, would probably go unnoticed.
Am I bothered that my 7yo Primera's passenger seatbelt knocks sometimes against the door at speed, because it's been pulled one too many times and doesn't seem to always go back up its track completely? Am I heck as like. If the car was 7 months old? Well, yeah I might get annoyed by it.
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I think like with most things it is relative.
The european brands do tend to sell well in their homeland from what I have observed.
If you take Renualt for instance, then they did have healthy profits in 2004 on the back of Nissan and the popular new Megane. I tend to find that around here loads of women with kids drive megane scenics - something I have never understoof because the 2 friends I have that own them both experience many problems but would have another !!!!.
More recently renault are being investigated by French prosecutors because of alot of suicides of people that work in their technical centre and profits have collapsed.
Compare them to say Toyota who are so cash rich it is unbelievable. They literally could buy any company they wanted but believe in doing things themselves like launching a luxury brand like Lexus when they could afford to buy BMW & MB together with money left over.
Also everyone (especially in eastern europe) are becoming more affluent so again native european brands are doing well.
It also depends on how much it costs to make the car. The current Golf range is very expensive to make and VW are quickly designing a replacement that will be cheaper to make so we should expect another profit increase.
Then you have the likes of BMW with bigger margins on cars and the fact that a 335d is pretty much the same COST as a 320d but the PRICE we pay is massively different.
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Of course the other thing to remember is that making cars in cheap labour european countries while closing wetsern factories down does not increase profits in the long run as the Japs have clearly demonstrated.
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I think alot of car buying is a mix of logic and illogical views. Very few people seem to see buying a car in a cold rational way. Things like image, what their neighbours/relatives say, what Mr Clarkson has said last week etc etc. , what happened when they/their hairdresser owned a model 10 years ago from the same manufacturer thought etc etc, how many you see on the road, what colours you can get the car in, matters to many more than any cold robust weigh up of practical issues. Also reputations and common views on makes take a long time to change. Witness how long Skoda has had to run a campaign to improve it's brand image.
Also I think in some ways people know no different and have fixed expectations of levels of reliability - in relation to some manufactured items we expect very few if any problems with electronic goods, more faults in kitchen appliances although less than before but we seem quite tolerant of the number of problems with PCs. With cars I think we still tolerate higher levels of faults than we could. if they've never really owned a vehicle where nothing at all went wrong then they accept a certain level of niggles/fixes. I wonder if we'd allowed much higher levels of Japanese imports in the late 70s and 80s whether the whole car market might have changed hugely....would we expect everyone to have the same relatively fault free existence as many of the Jap makes?
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> I wonder if we'd allowed much higher levels of Japanese imports in the late 70s and 80s whether the whole car market might have changed hugely....would we expect everyone to have the same relatively fault free existence as many of the Jap makes?
I think this is a dead cert to be honest. Look at what has happened in the US, Canada, Australia, Africa, Asia, NZ. Japanese cars EVERYWHERE. The European manufacturers are being kept alive solely by European sales -- which were kept at an artificially high level for many years by unfair competition quotas.
The Japanese car companies were just about getting to critical mass, and the rug was pulled from under them. Datsun were the second-biggest seller in the UK at one point, ahead of Vauxhall.
In many other markets around the world -- notably the USA -- most European cars are not tolerated due to their relative lack of reliability. Many a European manufacturer has withdrawn with their tail between their legs over the years.
And the Japanese forced standards to improve in Europe. Older European cars were often absolutely woeful in reliability terms -- Japanese imports forced a shakeup of the entire industry.
If the quotas hadn't been introduced, I firmly believe that the Euro market would be in the same position that the US market is in today -- niche players removed, massive losses everywhere and a complete intolerance of faults on the part of the consumer.
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Most new cars are paid for by companies, and companies only look at lease costs. In any case, faults are what the warranty is for. I genuinely don't believe reliability, unless the reputation is particularly dreadful, makes one jot of difference. Fleets run Renaults and Citroens in big numbers, and on my experience, the majority rattle on happily until their leases expire.
From a personal point of view, I don't place much stock in these reputations anyway. The two most unreliable cars I've ever known were built by Volkswagen and Toyota, and I currently own a very reliable Renault. A mate has a 120,000 mile Alfa Romeo 156 that has never broken down. My Ford is great but my mum's has been nothing but trouble. If Citroen launched the car I wanted, and it was withing budget, I'd buy one.
Just buy the car you like, and it is my honest belief that most cars you buy today will give many years of reliable service if looked after.
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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Jase1, as usual I agree 100%! In Australia they gave up on Landrovers in remote parts a long time ago, in favour of Toyota Landcruiser and Nissan Patrol. There are no Fiat dealers in Australia to my knowledge, and very few Renault dealers. Citroens and Peugeots are bought by enthusiasts, but not really anyone else. Interestingly PSA aren't thought of as unreliable, just a bit...oddball. However, every town has a main-dealer for Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan etc.
If people here in the UK bought with their head instead of their heart, maybe we'd be in a similar position. Kia Ceed or Renault Megane? To me it's a no-brainer.
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>>and it is my honest belief that most cars you buy today will give many years of reliable service if looked after. <<
Sorry to be so blunt but that is total nonsense.
There are exceptions to every rule but every reliability/quality survey anywhere in the world always score Japanese cars as the most reliable. I too have experienced problems with Toyota but only in the rattly dash department & I also understand that some will go wrong but overall they clearly produce cars that are more reliable than most. That is why everybody else copies them with their production system.
Look at how much value a Honda Jazz retains and it is all down to reliability.
I also know that some people that have Renaults, Alfas and Citreons & they do not go wrong but most people suffer alot of probelms and this again reflected in the surveys published.
As someone said above, most UK cars are leased by companies - but if you focus on a country where the majority buy a car with their own money then reliability comes above image and as the man said - the market is dominated by Japanese brands.
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Apols - I forgot to add that if people don't believe the surveys just look at the Technical Matters section on this site on a daily basis.
Out of 21 posts with people asking questions because they have a problem, you only ever get the odd 1 Jap car query - the rest are always european brands.
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Apols - I forgot to add that if people don't believe the surveys just look at the Technical Matters section on this site on a daily basis.
As of now, 13 of the top 50 posts are Ford problems, a more than four times bigger representation than the next biggest (Nissan and Peugeot). Are Fords four times less reliable then Peugeots. I'm not convinced.
I think it is more likely to be explained by the relative numbers of each marque out there than their relative reliability.
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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I too have experienced problems with Toyota but only in the rattly dash department & I also understand that some will go wrong but overall they clearly produce cars that are more reliable than most.
This Toyota's problems were a little more serious than a few rattles. As in two gearbox failures, multiple catalytic converter failures, ongoing suspension geometry issues, "soft" alloy wheels, multiple EML illumination/limp home mode instances. In 2 years and 54,000 miles.
Yes I accept that the odds of this kind of thing vary depending on the manufacturer chosen, and probably quite significantly, but I still believe most individual cars are reliable, and most people don't have problems. I certainly know there are no guarantees either way.
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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I still believe most individual cars are reliable and most people don't have problems.
As has been said, that's only true of new cars. When they get to 6-7 years old it's a different matter. I see quite a few elderly Peugeots about, especially the 205 and 306, both damn good cars in their day. I don't see many (if any) elderly Fiats or Renaults around. Yes they're built to give good service initially, but they're not built to last unless meticulously looked after. Jap cars are designed for longevity, and will usually tolerate horrendous abuse. And even then, the engine's usually still A1 while the body eventually falls apart.
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> Jap cars are designed for longevity, and will usually tolerate horrendous abuse. And even then, the engine's usually still A1 while the body eventually falls apart.
Indeed. Try to think back to the last time you heard a rattly old Renault or Ford engine, with lumpy idle, reluctant starting, tappets banging away like a good'un and squeaks and moans as it sets off.
Probably this morning, right?
Now think back to the last time you heard a Mazda, Honda or Nissan sounding as nasty as that.
You may get the odd few with a throbbing exhaust note, but that's about it.
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> Citroens and Peugeots are bought by enthusiasts, but not really anyone else. Interestingly PSA aren't thought of as unreliable, just a bit...oddball.
One man's "character" is another man's "strange and scary". That's the way of the world.
Far-East makes produce plenty of cars with character, but they do not sell here because people who *think* they are being individual are in fact as conservative as everyone else.
In Aus, because of the sheer number of Japanese cars, rather than Euroboxes, the interesting Jap cars are accepted, and Citroens are the ones looked upon with suspicion.
So I don't think there is any "buying with their heart" about it -- it's simply marketing BS, as I have said time and time again.
FWIW, I don't think PSA cars are unreliable. They've had a few problems over the years, but then so have many others. Fiat and Renault on the other hand....
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> Citroens and Peugeots are bought by enthusiasts Fiat and Renault on the other hand....
The enthusiast is extinct, or as near as dammit.
When did one of the few remaining ones last buy a new Peugeot?
Anyway I thought it was all one firm these days, give or take the odd kit car and thing from some fly-by-night firm that's bought a name.
Pretty much anyway.
Groan. Drool. Sniffle.
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When did one of the few remaining ones last buy a new Peugeot?
I was talking about Australian attitudes to European cars! In reality though, it's a long time since ANY manufacturer has produced a quirky cult-car that's been a hit with enthusiasts. Suzuki Cappucino maybe the most recent?
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Just some experiences with various makers ive owned or family have.
Citroen: Two BX's, one petrol, one diesel and then two XMs both petrol. All fastidiously serviced and no problems from 1988 to 1996. Emphasis on the servicing and also cars mainly did motorway miles and owned from new.
Subaru: 1996 Impreza Turbo. Air con bracket broke nearly cutting through cambelt at just a week old, however this was due to the dealer fitment of the unit as was common back then and not Subaru themselves. Otherwise, thrashed but perfect.
Honda: 1999 Integra Type-R. Perfect, never missed a beat. Brilliantly engineered.
Toyota: 2002 Yaris. Perfect.
Hyundai: Coupe V6. Problems with ABS pump and handbrake. Otherwise so far very good but disappointed probelms even happened.
Suzuki: Carry Van. Perfect.
Daihatsu: Hijet 1.0. Fine when I owned it but next owner had engine blow up at 5 years 45k.
Renault: 21 2.0. Oil filter exploded, never had much confidence in it but nice as a car.
Vauxhall: Astra LPT diesel van 1995. Almost perfect especially as it was old, tatty and smokey. Always passed its MOT and did high 50's mpg. Tough as they get.
I guess the point is, sometimes you get a good one and sometimes you get a bad one.
Certain generalisations are true to an extent but there will nearly always be exceptions.
To the original question - cars that are not as reliable as others come with other attributes that may outweigh reliability when the car is still under warranty - perhaps why you may see alot of 3 year old Renaults about - I have a customer who chops hers in just before as she usually has trouble with hers but considers it par for the course.
As such, they still sell.
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Talking to the local garage owner about which SH cars he'd sell is very interesting, bearing in mind he offers his own warranty.
He will sell, Rovers, Ford, GM, Land Rover,Peugeot, all the Japanese makes, Daiwoo, and a few others that don't come to mind.
He will not sell Renault, Citroen with the hydraulic suspension, and a handful of others.
I heard him on the phone to a franchise dealer discussing trade ins that they had got in. He said yes to a Daiwoo but no to a Renault, both only a few years old.
As for why people buy from manufacturers renown for reliability issues, I think it's down to a number of factors.
Marketing and styling. sometimes certain brands stick out either via design or other factors. My purchase of a van was partly on the way it looked and the way in which it was able to buy it. I avoided VAG purely on the basis that the customer focus was consistently getting a knocking on here and other areas. I know it does keep going back to the dealership for warranty issues but that is partly becaues I have made an effort to capture everything, and the customer service appears to be generally quite good.
Fit for purpose. Sometimes a vehicle comes out at you as being the only car in your price range that will siut your need. Those Pug 1007s with the sliding rear doors probably appealed to a number of people with specific needs. I know that this model was not the success that PSA hoped it would be but my point is that it doesn't matter how bad a reputation a manufacturer has, if you see that car as being able to suit your need over and above the competition, you are going to give it some serious thought.
Cost to buy. Discounts and promotions can get the punters in.
Image. Certain prestige brands that have had recent reliability and quality issues still sell as a result.
So much choice. Some people simply suffer analysis paralysis when they choose a car, others simply go for the first one they like/like the deal with or the price of. The correct method of choosing probably lies in between.
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The other thing you notice is the sheer amount of advertising from the main European makes. Endless Ford, Vauxhall, Fiat, Citroen and Renault 0% this, 3 day test drive that...billboards and on TV.
I remember back to the 70s and 80s where to be honest I don't remember seeing advertising for any Jap makes at all. Perhaps they did not need to. Even now I don't think they spend as much on TV ads etc compared to the Europeans. I presume they get more repeat business or get people reading sensible writeups and following such advice - the sheer no of Jazzes to me is almost single handedly down to HJ and Which type write ups I think.
Also I do think that there is still the perennial problems of the car press at least the mags that rely on ad revenue ever really concluding a road test (as Which have done) with a conc that said "great car to drive etc but we cannot recommend it as it's maker has a history of poor reliability". If that happened and car writers were more brutal in saying when a make is indeed a poor buy it might stop quite so many lemons (at any level of the market) and raise standards such that zero defects on delivery and zero out of line servicing might be the norm.
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I remember back to the 70s and 80s where to be honest I don't remember seeing advertising for any Jap makes at all. Perhaps they did not need to. Even now I don't think they spend as much on TV ads etc compared to the Europeans. I presume they get more repeat business or get people reading sensible writeups and following such advice - the sheer no of Jazzes to me is almost single handedly down to HJ and Which type write ups I think.
Japanese cars wer riddled, quite literally with rust problems in this era, People bought then because they were cheap and they attached a lot of whisltes and bells whereas the likes of Ford and Vauxhall did not - you got the basic car.
If you wanted a 5 speed box or tinted windows at a knock down price etc then it was the Japanese that were offering these when the british motor industry (we still had one back then) still kept this blinkered attitiude to peddling low spec A road fodder at high prices.
Hence, to a certain extent the Japanese were playing the same tricks on us then as some of the european manufacturers are playing now.
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> Japanese cars wer riddled, quite literally with rust problems in this era,
... as were Ford, Vauxhall, Rootes, BL, Fiat, Renault......
Japanese cars were bought because they were cheap, loaded with toys, but more importantly were reliable and had decent warranties at a time when Ford offered a single year and would try their best to wriggle out of even that. Companies like Mitsubishi were instrumental in establishing 3 year warranties as the standard. If any of the British (or "British") manufacturers had tried that in the 70s or 80s they'd have been bankrupted in a year, likewise the Eurobox makers.
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Japanese cars were much worse for rust than many of the british marques, and some of the european ones.
Go back 5 years, how many 1981 MY japanese cars did you see on the roads as opposed to Fords and GMs of the same year?
Typical Japanese cars were the Datsun Bluebird, Cherry, Daihatsu range
Typical Ford Vauxhall were the Mk2/3 Escort or Mk 1/early Mk2 Cavalier etc.
My Renault 11 on an 85 plate incidently came with a 5 year anti corrsion warranty, as did a lot of european cars of its time.
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Go back 5 years how many 1981 MY japanese cars did you see on the roads as opposed to Fords and GMs of the same year?
As a percentage of what was originally sold a HUGE amount more, lots of old Japanese cars still on the road, saw a 1982/3 Corolla the other day and it was in Fantastic condition, same goes for many old late 80's early 90's Micra's and theres even an early 80 Hyundai going around here, Stella I think its called.
Edited by carl_a on 06/10/2007 at 23:31
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> Go back 5 years, how many 1981 MY japanese cars did you see on the roads as opposed to Fords and GMs of the same year?
Very few of either if I am to be honest. Bear in mind that by 1981, the quotas were at their worst -- so if there are ten or twenty times as many Fords as Datsuns, that's effectively parity.
However, move forward to 1987, and there are a much, much higher percentage of old Nissans etc on the road than Ford/Vauxhall. That's backed up by official figures -- 1/3 of the 1983-1992 Micras are still going.
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Some people don't know anything about reliability. I think they go into a car showroom and choose a car purely on the basis that the price is right and they like the colour.
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L\'escargot.
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Exactly jase1, contrast with how many Mk2 Fiestas are still around, or Novas for that matter. Even Polos of that era were rust-buckets.
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On reflection I think you may have a point Jase.
It's easy to forget how few japanese cars were on our roads at the time anyway.
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I remember back to the 70s and 80s where to be honest I don't remember seeing advertising for any Jap makes at all. Perhaps they did not need to. Even now I don't think they spend as much on TV ads etc compared to the Europeans.
I don't know about the UK, but Toyota's advertising campaign for the Auris here in Germany was the most expensive marketing action ever undertaken by a car manufacturer here (according to Toyota). Where I live, literally every billboard had a picture of an Auris and every commercial break on the telly featured an Auris cruising through a desert or splashing spectacularly through urban puddles, sometimes twice or three times in the same break. Effect on sales? Well, even by Toyota's own admission "moderate". Dealers are presently selling them at 15% off MRP.
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My point was it is only more recently that you've seen mass market advertising for jap makes ie regular spreads in the newspapers etc.
Unfortunately the Auris looks like such a dull car that it probably needs bucket loads of promotion to get it shifted.
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