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Incidently, how about a Renault Laguna 2.0L? Comments?
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Incidently how about a Renault Laguna 2.0L? Comments?
Yes. Don't touch one with even the longest bargepole you can find. Probably the most unreliable car you could buy. That astra doesn't look too bad - remember those 8-valve engines will do mega-miles, so the high mileage wouldn't put me off. You could find a much better example out there though.
My personal choice with your budget would be the Nubira - Autotrader is throwing up loads of them, most with low mileage and good spec. And despite what BB says, parts are readily available both from a factor and your local Chevrolet dealer - the Nubira sold in large numbers in this country, especially the estate so I can't envisage parts ever being a problem.
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If I see a Nubria I'd go for one - it'd be years later for the money -but Astras are far more plentiful so I suspect I won't end up with one. It seems you get a car 6 years newer for the same price - that's six less winters of rot and abuse. Off hand I can't see a Haynes available for the Nubria - am I blind or is there none?
+ From what your saying above (cosmetically quiteebad, bit of oil around and dodgy electrics), 125k miles and for £1,400 I wouldn't touch it.
Well clearly I aint gonna offer £1400. I was thinking of bidding a bit over parker's minimum private price for the year but only if someone could explain (or dismiss as unimportant or normal) the warning sound whenever the key is in the ignition and the equally strange info that the ciggie lighter has blown apparently unrelated fusees in the past.
Can someone confirm what the chances are of the 1.6 8v engine surviving a cam belt ping?
What about the 16v Astras, are they interference?
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Well clearly I aint gonna offer £1400.
Yes, well I would just agree with GS that 'You could find a much better example out there though.'
Because of the possible electrical problems and oil leak (which the seller doesn't mention at all in the eBay listing), I wouldn't offer anything and carry on looking.
It's an ex-police car that's covered 125k ;-)
As you've said yourself Astras are plentiful
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Because of the possible electrical problems and oil leak (which the seller doesn't mention at all in the eBay listing), I wouldn't offer anything and carry on looking. It's an ex-police car that's covered 125k ;-) As you've said yourself Astras are plentiful
In defence of the car it's a respectable owner with all history and the advisory sheet from the MOT it just had has nowt but two tyres which he's just replaced.
However, I've got three weeks to play with before the current banger goes to the scrappie so will leave it.
Incidently, the current banger is a peach: Cost £425, 5 years ago. It's done 58k hassle free miles in my ownership. (It's now on nearly 180k miles so I'm not afraid of high milers) It'll need swing arm bushes, a driveshaft and a headlamp lense for this MOT so time to call it a day IMHO.
Needless to say, at this budget I'll be doing any work it needs myself - the cambelt is the exception - I'd rather have someone else do that - or even better have a car with no cam belt or a car where u can laugh at a snapped cam belt.
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They are rare, but what you could really do with is a Sunny estate. Dead easy to work on, plentiful cheap parts, uber uber reliable and cheap.
Bit of corrosion the only thing you have to worry about on these pretty much.
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From what your saying above (cosmetically quiteebad, bit of oil around and dodgy electrics), 125k miles and for £1,400 I wouldn't touch it.
Chris
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Not sure what price bracket tthey fall into but what about a Peugeot 306 Estate or Citroen ZX or Xsara Estate?
--
2007 Seat Altea XL 2.0 TDI (140) Stylance
2005 Skoda Fabia vrS
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Not sure what price bracket tthey fall into but what about a Peugeot 306 Estate or Citroen ZX or Xsara Estate?
No problems with any of those, but haven't seen any for sale locally yet.
As is probably clear my key questions on any car I'm considering are:
Can I get away without fitting a new cam belt ?
What do you need to look for in them?
Which engines need to be avoided/actively seeked out?
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I wouldn't bother with the 2.0l Nubira.
The 1.6 is the same 16-valve engine as was put in the Astra and Vectra (with a couple of minor differences mainly related to the electronics -- and if the ECU goes on any car at this price it's bin-time, regardless of badge). It's an Ecotec, but generally -- cam-belts aside -- it's not a bad engine.
The 2.0 however is manufactured by the Australian Holden, they're difficult to get parts for and in general are a load of horse manure. The head gaskets go, the belts are very prone to premature failure and while they are actually very refined (better than Vauxhall engines in fact), they're not reliable.
Don't blame Daewoo for this, it's GM's fault.
At this price range, condition is everything (assuming you avoid the models with reputations for expensive repairs), and that generally means looking left-field for bargains. Hyundai Lantra estate may be worth looking into therefore.
Bear in mind that 60-80% of any repair bills you'll get are labour charges, regardless of what you get. Unless you are repairing yourself, that £20 extra for a new clutch kit on a Honda vs a Ford is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things.
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I wouldn't bother with the 2.0l Nubira.
The 2.0 however is manufactured by the Australian Holden they're difficult to get parts for and in general are a load of horse manure. The head gaskets go the belts are very prone to premature failure and while they are actually very refined (better than Vauxhall engines in fact) they're not reliable.
Thanks, that's very useful.
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Louise_11111111111, Why are you so hung up on cam belts going ping? I've never had one go in 20+ years. If owners changed them at 4yrs/40,000 miles there shouldn't be a problem.
So many of the replies here miss one of your main criteria - getting parts from a scappy. OK the engine of a Nubira may be shared with an Astra or whatever, but what if you want a headlamp, radiator or piece of trim? You'll have a longer search if you go for Jap. Stick with Vauxhall, Ford etc.
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As bellboy once said here "if only cars could talk" they can't so a cam-belt swap on any "banger" new to you is a good move !
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> You'll have a longer search if you go for Jap. Stick with Vauxhall, Ford etc.
It's not as simple as that.
There are a higher percentage of newer cars about than older ones.
The Daewoos are typically much newer than the Fords/Vauxhalls at the same price, and with lower mileage. And they're not so uncommon that parts are a massive issue.
Try getting a *good* used headlamp for a 12 year old Astra, and I'll bet a pound to a penny you'll be doing a lot more trudging around than a good headlamp for a Nubira. Fewer around, but fewer wasted journeys to breakers, only to find that you have yet another misted up unusable heap of junk.
I've kept cheap cars both ways; old Cavaliers, Escorts etc and Daewoos/Nissans/Hyundais etc. The "Jap" approach is far less stressful!!
First, in my experience they don't go wrong as often, and when they do the parts are readily available, cheaply, on ebay.
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Louise_11111111111 Why are you so hung up on cam belts going ping? I've never had one go in 20+ years. If owners changed them at 4yrs/40 000 miles there shouldn't be a problem.
To me replacing a cam belt is a problem in itself. It's cash, hassle and effort. Buying a car with cam chain/non interferance engine effectively saves me hassle and £150 on day one and every few years thereafter. I'd trust a recentish receipt, of course.
So many of the replies here miss one of your main criteria - getting parts from a scappy. OK the engine of a Nubira may be shared with an Astra or whatever but what if you want a headlamp radiator or piece of trim? You'll have a longer search if you go for Jap. Stick with Vauxhall Ford etc.
Good point but if I bought something obscure I'd accept that risk. I'd get a far newer car but accept that some parts would be more hassle. eg, I'd buy a tidy '00 Nubria in preference to a tatty '96 Astra and just hope it needed correspondingly fewer parts.
Incidently, isn't the Oil Filter on the Astra easy to get at. I wish all cars put them there instead of under the car, adjacent to the hottest possible components.
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To me replacing a cam belt is a problem in itself. It's cash hassle and effort. Buying a car with cam chain/non interferance engine effectively saves me hassle and £150 on day one and every few years thereafter.
Admittedly I drive an Almera so I'm not the best person here to make this comment..... Cambelts aren't a ticking time-bomb, I only know a few people who've had them snap, and most were fools who'd gone way over the change interval. If you buy a Pug/Citroen with the XUD 1.9 diesel, slap a belt on and it'll be fine for 72k. That's a lot of miles, and probably more than you'll do before you move on to the next car.
Generally speaking, it's only a small number of 8-valve petrols that are non-interference, the GM 1.6 8v unit being the best known. I'm not aware of any diesel or 16-valver being non-interference. But I really wouldn't let a rubber band be the deciding factor here.
Not sure about the 2.0 Daewoo being that bad jase, but I'm aware that the 1.6 units are the most reliable whether you go for the 8 or 16 valve. Personally I'd have the 1.6 in preference to the 2.0 purely because of cheaper fuel consumption and insurance costs.
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But I really wouldn't let a rubber band be the deciding factor here.
SNIPQUOTE!
IMHO it's a factor that needs to be taken into consideration.
Buying a car with cam chain/non interferance engine means that on the day I take ownerhip of the car I pick it up, insure it, drive it home and change the oil. All done in under an hour. Otherwise I do that, then, phone round for quotes, take half a day off work to drop it off at a garage and pick it up. In the meantime if the garage shear a few bolts getting it out the cost and hassle can mount...
So yeah, it's not crucial, but it's something I do need to know when deciding what a car's worth to me.
Given the Astra is looking quite a good bet for a banger Estate car I might as well go for one where the cam belt change on day one is not essential, if a good one comes up.
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you could always get a bus pass and let the bus take the strain,most of these are now chain-cam so only the inspector and shareholders need worry about it
or just buy the harmster er astra,make sure the air suspension in the boot works though 32psi and you can carry anything in the back
i didnt mention an archiles heal on this car did i? well if the rear wheel arches are rotten at the front leading adge by the dog leg walk on by (1977 Dionne Warwick?)
ko?
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no need to quote the previous post - PU
Thanks. Will check that.
According to an Astra owning mate the alarm when the doors open and key's in the ignition is because the indicator was left on. That's likely *but* why would you have an alarm for engine off indicator on door open key in the ignition. Unless it's a 'take your key with you alarm' and nowt to do with indicators after all.
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No - on some Vauxhalls - when you leave the indicator stalk in the "on" position and withdraw the key this leaves the appropriate side's sidelights on as a parking light so the warning was there to tell you to cancel it if parking up for an extended period to save flattening the battery.
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At this price and with the fact that you want it to be as trouble free as possible (as we all do) then I would suggest a Avensis Estate or a Honda Accord Aerodeck.
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free as possible (as we all do) then I would suggest a Avensis Estate or a Honda Accord Aerodeck.
Thanks Pendlebury. Honda's already on the list but will add the Avensis to the list.
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When you leave an indicator on and turn the ignition off, that puts a parking light on. When you open the door with the parking light on, it sounds a two-tone alarm. The "key in and door open" alarm is a constant horrible "beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep" that doesn't stop until the key's removed.
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From what I've obversed, the OP is being too critical of a cam belt breaking and clutch going. As previously mentioned, providing the belt is changed at the specified interval, then you shouldn't have any problems.
Re: Clutch. Do a forum search and see how many people have had clutch problems. Take a look over on VoxOn (www.vauxhallownersnetwork.co.uk) as well.
Many people have rubbished Vectra's in this thread - tell me something I don't know, it's a BR forum tradition.
But then you mainly only hear from the few people that have problems, not the masses of people who never have problems. That goes for all car brands btw, not just Vectra owners.
An 8 valve Astra estate (if there is such a thing) won't have the power to take the skin off a rice pudding when fully loaded, IMHO. It will also have less room than the Vectra.
So, my opinion - (which will probably count for nothing) - just like the email I previously sent that got ignored ;o) - is to buy a car that has recently had the cambelt changed, and then you'll have 40,000 miles / 4 yrs (or so of) motoring before it'll need changing again.
Alternately buy a diesel engined Vauxhall that has a camchain (if it's really that that important, which I think it isn't). Camchains can break as well, and at some point it will also need changing - at a greater cost.
But then again, someone will be along in a minute to tell you how rubbish the diesel engines are as well, and that you should buy the backroom favourite - that being the Mondeo tdci ;o)
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The "key in and door open" alarm is a constant horrible "beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep" that doesn't stop until the key's removed.
That's exactly what happened, so it's totally normal, thanks.
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My vectra is not really a joy to own.
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"But I really wouldn't let a rubber band be the deciding factor here."
Nor would I, to be honest. You could argue that non-interference engines are more likely to be neglected, too, or is that just too cynical..?
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> You could argue that non-interference engines are more likely to be neglected
Doubt it to be honest -- the typical car neglector just picks out a cheap car and runs it into the ground. That neglected car is no more or less likely to be a NI than anything else.
Unfortunately that does mean that a fair few Daewoos mentioned above end up in the crusher at around 60,000 miles due to no-one changing the belt....
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Nor would I to be honest. You could argue that non-interference engines are more likely to be neglected too or is that just too cynical..?
You're possibly right that the cambelt wouldn't be changed on time, but I doubt the routine oil/filters/plugs changes would be neglected in the same way.
Louise_111111111, I'll put it this way. You pick up a Nubira/Astra/Vectra/406, for about £1250. You then take it for a belt change costing you £250. You've only paid 20% extra for up to 6 years' peace of mind. Yes it'll be out of action for a day, but you'll have the same scenario at MOT time anyway. If it's only got a few months left, pay the £40 extra and get a new ticket too. That way you're on the road for a year.
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> You then take it for a belt change costing you £250.
£250? £175...
That's how much I was quoted by my local garage for a 1.6 Nubira cambelt change, including tensioners. £35 more for a water pump as well IIRC, which is recommended on these engines.
I've been most impressed with the Daewoo under the circumstances. I got mine for nothing, it's a 1998 'R' plate saloon with 43,000 miles and it hasn't missed a beat in 3000 miles now. It's not the most inspired drive in the world, nor does it have particularly good perceived quality, but it's rust-free and the engine is as sweet as a nut (as it should be at the mileage, but that's the point -- a car of this age and miles won't be a tired old nail). It'll quite happily cruise all day down the motorway at 85-90mph, isn't slow or gutless and although the engine is a bit droney, it's by no means noisy.
If you think about it, with a late 2000 Nubira going for about £1000 after haggling, you're almost assured three years out of it at least mine is anything to go by. I understand my car is still worth about £6-700, so depreciation really isn't an issue any more at this sort of price, it'll lose value at the same rate as any other car at the price.
Show me a '97-'98 Astra that you're virtually guaranteed three years out of!!
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> You then take it for a belt change costing you £250. £250? £175...
I was being overly pessimistic there wasn't I! At only £35 for a waterpump that's a no-brainer. But... on a 406TD, the £250 figure would be more accurate. Either way, for little over a grand, you've got a car that should give you years of painless service.
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You pick up a Nubira/Astra/Vectra/406 for about £1250. You then take it for a belt change costing you £250. You've only paid 20% extra for up to 6 years' peace of mind.
All those cars are on my 'potentials' list. The flip side is that if you pick up a Nubira/Astra/Vectra/406 that doesn't need a belt for whatever reason (non-interference, chain, recent receipt for a fitted one) you're 20pc + £250 (using your figures) + half a days leave better off and get the same peace of mind. So it can't just be ignored.
Of course it's often academic - at this price if you find a mint car you're unlikely to let the need to fit a cam belt put you off.
FWIW I think I've been asking a set of prudent technical questions here. It can only be a good thing to find out technical features of cars that I'll be viewing and I really appreciate the people in this thread who've given sound technical information.
Jase - I've got the Nubira message loud and clear. The trouble is so has everyone else, the only local one had sold. :-)
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what's the betting something totally different will turn up and it'll be either in too good nick or too reasonable a price for you to ignore
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what's the betting something totally different will turn up and it'll be either in too good nick or too reasonable a price for you to ignore
Highly likely.
A mint one owner Mazda Eunos priced at £650 is sure to appear in my local paper any time now.
Plus a little voice is whispering "Alfa 156" at me.
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Is the 8v 1.6 Astra Engine the one out of the Cavlier with clutch you can just drop out in no time at all?
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AFAIK it's the same engine, not sure about clutch change procedure though because of the reduced space around the Astra's engine bay.
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It's not the size of the engine bay that's to blame - it's NVH engineering! The cut out in the gearbox has been removed, and the flywheel shape changed so the clutch can't be changed without taking the gearbox off.
However, if the clutch isn't juddering, and has plenty of wear left in it, I wouldn't give it another thought. It's not as though the clutch in an Astra is any more likely to fail than the one in any other car.
Number_Cruncher
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"A mint one owner Mazda Eunos priced at £650 is sure to appear in my local paper any time now"
Do let us know if it does.. :-)
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Forgive my saying, Louise, but you're obsessing about the merits of chain cam vs cambelt Astras, yet thinking of an Alfa 156?!?
Don't get me wrong, I think the 156 is the most beautiful mainstream car to come out in years, but surely they're a thing of beauty to fettle and lavish TLC on, not the uber-practical working hack you seem to be in the market for?
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I'm not entirely sure that asking a few technical questions on a website aimed at answering technical questions about cars could be described as obsessing. If you believe me to be seriously considering a 156 then why not tell me what specifically I should be looking for in one.
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Well, Louse_1111111111 I think people are just puzzled by the emphasis you put on cambelt/clutch longevity. Obviously either would cause inconvenience and expense if they went, but it's a risk of buying a car. The only practical estate cars which have either a non-interference or cam-chain engine are the 1.6 8v Astra (NI), some Vectra 2.0 Diesels (chain), and the Nissan Primera (chain). Not sure if the Avensis was cam-chain or belt.
Obviously there are many more models out there which would provide you with reliable service, but people are just puzzled that you're cutting your choices down so comprehensively over something which they consider quite trivial.
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By limiting your options you'll end up paying more.
Far better to pay less, and get the work done.
Once a car has had its belt changed, it's very unlikely to snap for at least 3 or years afterwards -- and that's worse scenario.
The one caveat is with certain Vauxhall, Renault and Fiat engines, where if you get the belt done make absolutely damn sure you get the tensioners done at the same time.
Other than that, I wouldn't worry about it. Unlikely you'll be keeping the car beyond a few years anyway.
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I think people are just puzzled by the emphasis you put on cambelt/clutch longevity.
Such empasis is probably puzzling because it blatently doens't exist. Would someone who deems easy clutch maintainance to be unduely important be online posting technical questions about the Vectra (and also considering a Mondeo)? As for the Cambelt, in a whole weekend looking at cars I saw one interferance car with a recent cam belt, one with chain and one with a non-interferance engine. Everything else would have needed a new belt on day one.
cutting your choices down so comprehensively
As you can see by reading upwards my list of "possibles" includes: Vectra, Nubria, Astra, 406, 405, 306, Accord, Mondeo, Carina E, Avensis, Primera and Honda Accord. And that's just the ones I've mentioned here! I'm happy to add anything that comes up to that list & nothing will be ruled out. I expect I will find something tidy on that "shortlist" within 3 weeks, but time will tell.
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I think at this end of the market, if the price and the car was right I really wouldn't let a cambelt change put me off.
So you've got to take some time off work and spend a bit of money. Factor the cambelt change into the price you pay for the car.
And re: clutches, unless the clutch is slipping or juddering(?) I don't think theres a real way to tell if there's an issue with it. A Nissan Sunny I had for 2-years was biting high when I bought it and it was biting in the same place when I sold it.
Just my input ;-)
Chris
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Yeah Chris, or to put it another way, as I did at 5pm on Sunday:
"it's not crucial, but it's something I do need to know when deciding what a car's worth to me."
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"considering a 156 then why not tell me what specifically I should be looking for in one"
Well, I'd certainly get the cambelt serviced! (A colleague has recently had a tensioner pulley let go on his V6.)
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One other thing I thought I'd mention.
Have a think about whether you could get away with a Vectra-sized hatchback rather than an estate.
If you're considering estate Astra-sized cars, often the hatchback Primeras etc have comparable boots to the estate cars of the next class down. They'll be cheaper as well, as estates carry a premium.
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Agree, the Hatch derivatives of most of the cars I'd consider would be fine.
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then go and buy a MKI or II 1.8 Mondeo hatch or to be different go for the 405/406. I had the estate Pug and the hatchback could take more kit under the load cover.
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Agree the Hatch derivatives of most of the cars I'd consider would be fine.
Bearing that in mind, my first recommendation would be a Primera - the boot is enormous and the engines are bulletproof, and all cam-chain.
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Bearing that in mind my first recommendation would be a Primera - the boot is enormous and the engines are bulletproof and all cam-chain.
Was exactly my thought (Primera is my other current car).
The engines and transmissions are very strong, the boot is massive (cavernous when you put the rear seats down) and they're cheap. You can have a lot of fun in them as well -- they handle very smartly.
Just as long as you buy a P10/P11. The P12 (newer shape) is a lot less well put together, and while it isn't exactly a bad car, it doesn't really have most of the virtues of the older car.
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Just as long as you buy a P10/P11. The P12 (newer shape) is a lot less well put together...
And it's the ugliest car EVER to wear a Nissan badge. Absolutely hideous. So much for Renault influence, they really were taking the pink fluffy dice with that bit of design. The P11 (both original and "144" facelift) is vastly underrated, and it's the model to go for. Avoid the diesels and CVT autos and you're onto a winner.
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