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I was just about to buy a 2003 Mondeo Ghia tdci 130 6 speed but a couple of my friends told me to look at a VW Passat so now i have seen a 2003 VW Passat Sport tdi 130 6 speed i have'nt tried it yet but i thought i'd just ask what you guys think is the better car and is the Passat as quick as the Mondeo and what difference is there in mpg?
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Passat with a Pumpe Duse engine likely to have better MPG. The Mondeo will be the better to drive. The Passat Sport will not be "sporty" to drive at all - suspension too soft. Both dated now and replaced with newer cars.
Personally I have found the Mondeo the better car (but had a Passat 1.8T Sport) but have had issues with it. But I had issues with the Passat also.
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I would avoid all Ford TDCI's at all cost, they are great when working but the repair cost of items such is injectors etc is a scandal. Ford have even tried to blame 'poor quality fuel' for some of these issues. There are a number of threads on this site detailing horror stories with these engines.
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There are a handful of problems from tens and tens of thousands of these things sold. You are scaremongering without any first hand knowledge of the facts.
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< Ex RF, Ex TVM >
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>>There are a handful of problems from tens and tens of thousands of these things sold. You >>are scaremongering without any first hand knowledge of the facts.
Afraid not the issues are very real, it is Fords attitude to the problems which are of concern. As a work in the trade I am aware of a large amount of issues with these vehicles. I am also aware of more than one fleet manager that has banned all Ford TDCI vehicles from the fleet pool. It is a fact that these units have a large number of short comings; anyone that purchases one of these will become very familiar with Ford service dept interior.
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I know my fleet havent. And my mates fleet, and his mates fleet..........
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< Ex RF, Ex TVM >
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And our fleet operator. They only have about 140,000 cars in total so quite a few Ford/Jaguar/LR diesel engines. And of course latest TDCis also in Citroen and Peugouts too.
There may be a number of problems but there are so many of these on the roads. Percentages.
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It is a fact that these units have a large number of short comings; anyone that purchases one of these will become very familiar with Ford service dept interior.
Complete carp, mine has now done 121k and is infinitley more refined and more entertaining to drive than any Passat TDi 130 has ever been.
Must be an ulterior motive there or an overblown loyalty to a competitor, does Carl work for GM perhaps? ;-)
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There are a handful of problems from tens and tens of thousands of these things sold. You are scaremongering without any first hand knowledge of the facts.
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Agree 100%, Carl233 seems to have it in for Ford.
These engines are fitted to Transits, Mondeos and X-Type Jags, they do above average mileages and there are loads of them out there, problems are no worse than average, though they have lots of advantages, a cam chain for one.
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To answer the OP, no contest:
The Mondeo is a fine handling car with crisp steering and is entertaining to drive where as the Passat is soggy and dull and only a little better in Sport form. The rare 1.9 TDi 4Motion handles quite well apparently.
The Mondeo engine is still pretty much class leading in refinement and vastly superior to the thrummy 1.9 TD in that respect, better in fact that the later 2.0 TDi as well.
The Mondeo has a camchain that requires no maintenance where as the Passat needs a belt change at, according to some, intervals as low as 40k miles.
Performance is closer though according to Superchips a std TDCi 130 is nearer 150bhp, at least 10 bhp more than a 1.9 130. the Passat will feel as gutsy at very low revs, below 1800, though the Mondeo pulls more strongly from 1800 on.
Economy is on paper comparable.
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>>Complete carp, mine has now done 121k and is infinitley more refined and more entertaining >>to drive than any Passat TDi 130 has ever been.
No complaints with regards to the driving experience and performance etc. The amount of failures is significant from cracked heads (see the thread on the technical section of this site for more info), injector failures, pump failures. These are all EXPENSIVE issues to resolve. Ford will play the old caused by 'poor quality fuel' scenario to try to get out of any warranty issues.
These injection systems are complex and disinterested Ford dealers are not always up to the task of putting faults right without huge expense. There will always be individual examples of these cars without problems. The risk is present however of BIG repair bills with these engines- it is a shame.
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And so the OP buys a Passat with a PDi and the cambelt should have been replaced at 40,000 miles and the engine dies.
Lots of info on failed VAG PDi engines due to incorrect oil use. And VW will often get out of repair due to evidence of the wrong oil use. And how do you know the right oil has always been used by the previous owner????
Best go for petrol and then we'll all say the Mondeo is the better of the two. I know I had the Passat Sport with 1.8 turbo petrol engine ;-)
A large percentage of modern common pail/pumpe duse failure likely to be down to misfuelling. And there's more TDCi to get wrongly fuelled.
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Average price of the Mondeo, according to Autotrader, is about £5500. Average price of the Passat same age is about £7000.
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I've got a a 134bhp 2.0PD VAG in my Mitsubishi Grandis and that compared to the 125bhp 1.8tdci that I hired on holiday in an S-Max is chalk and cheese. I tried to persuade the wife to wait until the SMax came out but she was having none of it (in fact the Mitsu suits us better)
the 1.8tdci pulled a lot lot better than the 2.0PD. It was quieter and sooooooo much more refined.
Therefore not having driven the Passat/Mondeo but going on the engine alone, I would go for Ford. Not sure when VAG common rails are going to hit the shelves but I wouldn't be surprised if they were going to be better than Ford.
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"Not sure when VAG common rails are going to hit the shelves but I wouldn't be surprised if they were going to be better than Ford. "
The new A4 in October has a 2.0 common rail diesel. When the PD first came out it was ahead of it's time. But CD caught up and passed it. And the development cost is shared by all and not by VAG alone.
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Have VAG released any figures for these engines yet?
Are they going to have different power ratings in various makes i.e. Passat lower than Audi so that Passat can compete directly with Ford and Audi can compete with BMW? Also how does the 170bhp PD in the Passat fit into things?
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I think Carl233 is getting on his soap box over incorrect facts, there are thousands of Mondeo TDCis on the road & Jags & transits all using the same plant. Fleet manager I know has no issue with them. My fleet manager banned BMW's at one time due to horrendous running costs & long delays over parts at one time as well ( faulty thermostat saga on 520+525's) & Landrover Discoverys as well due to reliability.
I would rather have a ford than a passat any day for running cost s/hand. Mondeo drives a lot better. Passats have had injector & pump issues as well & the pumps alone used to be £1k +
Regards Doc
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"....disinterested Ford dealers are not always up to the task of putting faults right without huge expense."
You lost my sympathy there, Carl. Disinterested = impartial: uninterested = bored / unenthusiastic, which I presume you meant. I know English is a living language and has to move on, but do we need to lose that particular (valid) distinction?
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Wouldn't you consider
MAZDA 6 2.0 TS2 CD 136 = a well built Mondeo
VAUXHALL VECTRA 1.9 CDTI 120 SRI = aren't these built like Geman vehicles used to be (unlike far too many VW's)
I'd have the Mondeo, out of OP's choice.
VB
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To be fair there's not that much in common (petrol engine blocks?) between the last 6 and the outoging Mondeo. The next 6 and the new Mondeo are a different story of course.
If you believe the forum chatter there are also plenty of problems with Mazda6 diesels, particularly premature clutch wear, but I suspect it's more a case of a basically reliable car being expensive (and therefore notable) to fix if it goes wrong, as with the Mondeo.
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I agree with tyro - a similar age/spec Passat will cost you more to buy. I've had both and prefer the Mondeo because it handles miles better and the power delivery isn't as all or nothing like the VW is. The Passat will use less fuel but you'll spend the saving on higher servicing costs. Lots of horror stories some say myths around both engines - the TDCI injectors (post 2004 supposed to be much improved) and even VW dealers, let alone independents not using the correct PD oil. Whichever you go for spend time verifying the service history and check out HJ's How to Buy & Sell Cars section on this site.
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I would definately think about the Mazda6 - well I get one in October on a 57 plate do maybe biased.
But in 2005 they improved it, especially excessive road noise which was fixed. A brand new demo vehicle I had for 3 days (Sport diesel) was as quiet, if not quiter than my Mondeo TDCi.
Between a Mondeo and Passat (I've had both) I would go for the Mondeo. Yes my Mondeo has had an EGR valve fail, some bushes and some sort of fuel injector leak. All quick fixes. Passat had far more issues under warranty, such as failure of airbags (weeks to diagnose and parts replaced at random it seemed), aircon, locks (three), turbo charger replacement needed from new (0 miles), wind noise, squeaky seats, etc.
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Getting main dealer bills for £700+ for major component failure on vehicles that have covered average miles and are 3/4 years old is totally unacceptable. It really does remove the potential money saved from economy with these vehicles. These kind of failures are not 'one offs'. Ask a Ford main dealer technician, I know several and they all have the same opinion as myself with regards to these units.
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Getting main dealer bills for £700+ >>
On a belt cam VAG engine you get that sort of bill every 40 to 60k, engine wise my Mondeo has done over 120k with only servicing, a warranty covered mod to the aux belt (actually out of warranty though covered under a Ford TSB) and a goodwill reprog of one injector at about 70k so also out of warranty though a benefit of staying in the Ford loop, was only 30mins labour anyway.
So I have saved the cost of 2 to 3 cambelt changes versus a Passat.
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why do VAG use belts rather than chains? Is it because they are cheaper to install and then they get money back when servicing or is there some mechanical reason? (I take it that Ford have chains)
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why do VAG use belts rather than chains? ..........>> (I take it that Ford have chains)
The Mondeo III, X-Type 2.0 and 2.2 TDCIs are chain cam, the Focus II, Mondeo IV, S-Max and Galaxy Ford/PSA engines (also in various Peugeots, Volvos, Mazdas etc) are belt cam which is a retrograde step though they are great engines in refinement and efficiency terms.
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Carl233 I think if you ask any technician in any franchise they will tell you the same tale of woes because they only get the cars in that go wrong! they forget about the hundreds & thousands that run around faultless. getting main dealerbills for around £700 is the norm these days & often just for servicing, especially VAG, volvo & merc your hard pressed to get change out of £1k per visit.
You also forget that having a diesel is not jsut about ecomemy its about the tourque as well & for those that tow it is well needed & it also makes driving more relaxed & effortless.
£700 for component faliure is unaceptable always make me smile, why is it people will spend 1-2k on sound systems & video systems & 3-400 on sat navs & some who pay thousands to get insurance & winge when there car goes wrong
Doc
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winge when there car goes wrong
Are they supposed to laugh when it goes wrong?
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