Both cars stolen last night - Vol 1 | Legal matters | Back Room Forum

Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:14

Both cars stolen last night - Vol 1 - jdc

***** This thread is locked. *****
Please continue discussion / messages of support to jdc in volume two, which can be found HERE

I just want to tell you what happened to us last night, partly as a way of getting it off my chest as I am still in shock and also partly with some oberservations.

I was watching the cricket last night around 9:00pm with my wife and young son, aged 11, when there was an almight bang on the patio doors, as though a car had hit them. My wife jumped off the couch in terror thinking something was coming through. I ran to the back door, grabbed a cricket bat and saw 4 hooded thugs getting ready to attack the patio doors again.

I ordered my wife and son to run upstairs quickly, my wife having the nous to pick up the phone and run to hide, with son, in a wardrobe and dial 999.

There was then an almighty crash as a paving stone was hurled through the patio doors - as I entered the lounge to see what was happening, I can only describe it as akin to an SAS raid - 4 hooded, thugs piled through the broken glass screaming and shouting at me, and weilding long, machete-type blades. I could just about make out my wife and child stiflng their screams upstairs.

As quick as a flash, one of these thugs had his blade to my neck and forced me down on the floor screaming "Where is your wife ?", "Where is the safe?" and so on over and over - I really thought of a terrible scenario where my wife would be raped in front of my son and I would be stabbed - I was that scared.

Then one of the thugs said "i've got the Subaru keys ", then the thug threatening me said where are your other keys, to which I replied, "if you let me get up. I'll get them". As they raced through the hall they pinched Sat nav, wallets, purses, mobiles, cash etc. Luckily they found the keys to our other car quickly and scarpered as quickly as they came in, still threatening.

The screech of the tyres of both cars as they left my drive will stay with me forever, as will the cries of my son saying "Have they gone Dad ?"

So, in the space of five minutes, I had 4 knife weilding thugs break in via a window (all doors were locked up safely), threaten to kill me, steal money, phones and other valuables and then steal both our cars from the drive........

There was absolutely nothing that could have been done to prevent this.

The police were there within 30 minutes and stayed for 4 hours until the house was secured.

Today, the police came back to check we were OK and they advised a similar raid had taken place across the town where the guy had put up some resistance and ended up with a leg wound from a blade. The situation was very similar, two cars the target.

It seems a professional gang had targeted us and thankfully, their main priority was only the cars.

Despite all the insurance hassle now, I am thankful to be in one piece.

However, I certainly do not now feel safe in my own home - something I thought I would never say.

As the Police said, there would have been absolutely no way of stopping this - if they want the cars, they will get them whichever means possible.

The situation today is that one of the cars has been found, apparently in good order with barely a scratch, only 2 miles from home, it is now in store awaiting forensics - the other was spotted having it's plates changed so could be anywhere now. I really hope I dont see this one again.

The two cars in question ? A Subaru Outback 2.5 and a Skoda Fabis VrS.

The Police throughout have been courteous and professional and I have had several phone calls with updates today - nothing but praise for them.

So, an everyday story from middle Britain eh ?

It has certainly changed my life - for how long, I shall have to wait and see........

jdc

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:19

Both cars stolen last night - David Horn

Crikey! Hope you feel better soon jdc.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:19

Both cars stolen last night - 1066

The police were there within 30 minutes and stayed for 4 hours until the house was secured.

nice to know where the priorities lie for them

i hope you look for some counselling as the same sort of thing happened to me when i was house sitting for a wealthy friend a few yrs ago
it took the police an hour to turn up and the thieves had guns

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:20

Both cars stolen last night - David Horn

Which reminds me... do you live in a rural area, because 30 minutes is an appalling response time to an attack like this.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:24

Both cars stolen last night - jdc

Not rural at all - in fact in a built up area 10 miles north of Manchester

y'now - I've pooh poohed counselling in the past, get a grip and all that - but right now, I feel drained, violated, scared for my family and my heart has not stopped beating like the clappers all day - butterflies in the stomach and all that.

my parents are taking us all out for a meal soon - hopefully will be calmer after that.

Thanks for your concerns.

jdc

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:28

Both cars stolen last night - chairmanmatt

What an awful thing to happen. You did the right thing letting them take what they wanted. It's better to be alive with no cars than to be dead with no cars. The sad thing is these thugs will probably never get caught and if they do they'll suffer nothing worse than a 2 year sentence. That's if the Home office don't let them out early due to the chronic shortage of space.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:37

Both cars stolen last night - Lud

Very nasty experience, and very glad no one was hurt.

I think these people will be caught soon. Desperado stuff just for a couple of respectable motors, not much up top probably. They may take a bit of arresting though.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 10:31

Both cars stolen last night - Martin Devon

Which reminds me... do you live in a rural area because 30 minutes is an

appalling response time to an attack like this.

Always tell them you have shot one of the intruders. They'll get there quicker. This is not said tongue in cheek. It is a sad fact of life. 30 minutes is appalling.

I feel for you JDC.

Very best regards to all MD

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 11:03

Both cars stolen last night - local yokel

My MiL was told to call for Fire and Police - Fire have much faster response, and the sight of six men each with an axe on their belt may do the trick....

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:39

Both cars stolen last night - Clk Sec

Absolutely terrible. So glad that you and your family were not phisically harmed, though.

Clk Sec

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:56

Both cars stolen last night - bell boy

Glad you and your family are fine jdc a few years ago if this happened to me i would have taken the 4 on,im older and wiser now and property at any cost can be replaced,i wish you and your family all the best for the future

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 21:59

Both cars stolen last night - aaflyer

Maybe, Bell Boy, but four hoods with tools (or should that be tools with hoods...) with a blade to my throat and my wife and son upstairs would make me a pretty compliant person.

That said, when I lived in America, crime like this was rarer as when an intruder entered one's house, he had to think about the prospect of looking at the business end of a shooty stick! My 12 gauge autoloader was always nearby at night...

My thoughts are with the original poster. He did the right thing. Better to be a figure on the floor than one in a police register.

AA

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:09

Both cars stolen last night - bell boy

there is no way i was putting jdc down for not having a go, absolutely no way,i was saying what i would have done and probably if i really delve deep enough what i really would do tomorrow if i was put in that situation,thats just me unfortunately.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:13

Both cars stolen last night - aaflyer

Fair enoughski :)

AA

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:58

Both cars stolen last night - NARU

Firstly, glad you're all OK. You'll be in shock for a while.

My wife and I escaped a couple of gunpoint hijacks (not in the UK). The second one was quite nasty and it took us a good six months to get mostly over it. I can see parallels between the way we're doing car security in the UK, which forces the thieves to these sorts of measures but I'll save those for a separate discussion.

I found it good to talk to friends on email/forums like this.

Tim

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:53

Both cars stolen last night - Screwloose

There was absolutely nothing that could have been done to prevent this.

Not quite; Tony Martin had the right idea. Like him; you had every reason to believe that your life was in imminent danger and therefore the right to use lethal force to defend yourself and family.

Out here in the sticks, police are an extinct species; so it's get a pump-action, buy an uncrimped cylinder and - if they smash their way in - shoot first and leave the questions to the coroner.

After the Tony Martin fiasco; the police/CPS won't be so keen to try another assault victim in the glare of public [media] opinion.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 20:05

Both cars stolen last night - Hamsafar

I think 30 minutes is disgusting, but sadly typical these days.
My only tip would be to have sealed double-glazed units made with one layer of laminated and one layer of toughened glass. The Laminated should be on the outside.
The laminated will break easily, but will remain intact, and so will cushion the toughened from breaking by high pressure point impact. (Toughened is 10x stronger than standard glass and is really hard to break without a sharp hard impact such as with a hammer of automatic punch.)

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 21:53

Both cars stolen last night - Bill Payer

if they smash their way in - shoot first

Big talk, but after that happens a couple of times the baddies will bring their own guns and just shoot you through the window first.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 19:58

Both cars stolen last night - NowWheels

Wow, that sounds absolutely horrendous, more like something out of Colombia than England :(

Well done, though, having the presence of mind to just give the thugs what they wanted, and to the police for giving you and your family proper priority.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 20:43

Both cars stolen last night - ForumNeedsModerating

That sounds absolutely dreadful, I'm glad there were no physical injuries to you or yours. You did the right thing - to have attempted to fight back (unless you're SAS fit & Krav Maga trained) against 4 in a confined space with family close by is a no-brainer. Even had you been able to neutralise all of them, the long-lasting effects (stress to your family,court case, fear of reprisal etc etc) would have the loss of cars pale by comparison.

I've never had house intrusion, but have experienced attack by groups of up to 6 or so. The key calculation to make (and of course, it's the most difficult thing to do in real-time situations..) is: What's their intention - what's my least risky strategy. In some situations, resistance is best, since you can risk becoming a 'no-cost' victim, i.e. they have injurious intent, so being passive will encourage them. I've been in that situation several times - quick decisive action saved my bacon. Other times it may be the case that it's ego & bluster that's driving the confrontation: those events are best served by tactical withdrawal, since no bad will come from being 'passive' or conciliatory - only a misplaced sense of pride will be 'hurt'.

There are many shades of grey of course between those above, but your misfortune fell into the 3rd category: motivated criminals, with limited but specific, intent. Given the odds you faced & downside for you or loved ones being injured, you were, IMHO, spot-on in your calculation - although it may not have felt like you were calculating at the time!

Give yourself & your family a while to absorb what happened & appreciate that you made the right decisions in the circumstances.

best,
woodbines

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 20:12

Both cars stolen last night - J Bonington Jagworth

"the other was spotted having its plates changed"

I don't suppose the spotter noted the new number?

Sound an horrendous experience - glad to hear that you are in one piece, at least.

WRT deterrence, I was going to suggest fitting a heavy-duty gate, but maybe heavy duty patio doors might be more appropriate!

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 20:19

Both cars stolen last night - rtj70

A few years ago we had people having cars stolen at gunpoint at junctions or when they left the house. It is almost impossible to safely stop the most determined.

I am glad jdc and family re okay albeit very shocked and shaken. I hope you get over this as soon as possible.

After my lowly Golf GTI was stolen I have gone for more boring cars. Sad but who will steal a Mondeo TDCi Ghia like this. Or the next car, a Mazda 6 Sport diesel.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 20:52

Both cars stolen last night - tintin01

So sorry to hear about your terrible experience. It will take a long time to get over this. You did exactly the right thing though, and in doing so you protected your family from more trauma. I'm sure the police will get them eventually - if not for this, then for something else. Best wishes.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 21:02

Both cars stolen last night - Chris White

What an awful experience. Glad you and your family was unhurt and the intruders left as quickly as they came in without physical injury.

Chris

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 21:07

Both cars stolen last night - Vansboy

Sorry to hear of this awful occourence. Hope your wife & the youngster are coping.

Don't like the 30minute response time, by the Police, at such an early time on a Friday night. Would have thought they'd have units available, prior to late night low-life problems.

Maybe the car you got back had a tracker/something they thought was similar & thought it best to leave it. Maybe were collecting later, if you hadn't found it.

Can't condone the firearm suggestion, but there's something to be said for having a German Sheperd dog...or 2.

Please keep us updated on this one.

VB

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 21:10

Both cars stolen last night - PoloGirl

Horrible thing to happen. Unfortunately it does happen for prestige/sports cars, but these were what I would call quite normal cars, which is a bit scary!

"Tony Martin had the right idea. Like him; you had every reason to believe that your life was in imminent danger and therefore the right to use lethal force to defend yourself and family."

Don't be stupid - this is a 4v1 situation. The OP did the right thing in my opinion.

"As they raced through the hall they pinched Sat nav, wallets, purses, mobiles, cash etc."

Hence the reason why you should never leave these out where they can be seen. Not that that is of any use to you now, I know.

As part of the investigation, you should have been told about Victim Support. I know you don't feel you need to speak to anyone, but it might be worth going to speak to someone once as a family, if only to open some lines of conversation with your little boy. Children interpret and remember things in funny ways. When we were burgled in our old house (and yes, that is the reason we moved because my mum was never happy knowing someone had been in there) I was behaved terribly at school for a while, because, as a child, I didn't have any other way of expressing how I felt about what I had seen and heard.

This will all seem very much like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but you can do some things to make you feel more secure in your home, and to deter people from getting into your back garden. Dusk til dawn lighting, a movement sensing light and a spiky wall/prickly hedge would help! Oh and change the locks too. Don't know where you live, but this may help: www.hampshire.police.uk/Internet/advice/secure/gar...m

Best wishes in getting this all sorted out.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 21:37

Both cars stolen last night - OldHand

Very bad news and part of the reason I have my cars fitted with blackjaxx and trackers.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:07

Both cars stolen last night - NARU

Very bad news and part of the reason I have my cars fitted with blackjax

When I lived in Africa, people started raising their car security. So instead of taking the car from the side of the road, the thieves started taking the car keys from people's houses. People started taking more care of their keys so the thieves started taking the cars at gunpoint. People then started using anti-hijack devices which cut the engine after 5 mins, so the thieves started taking the people with them, then dropping them off 15 minutes up the road. Sometimes without clothes. But usually alive.

At the moment we're largely at stage 2 or 3. But we could easily shoot up the scale.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:42

Both cars stolen last night - Bill Payer

At the moment we're largely at stage 2 or 3. But we could easily shoot

up the scale.

Bit like the biometric security devices - the thieves take the owners finger:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4396831.stm

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 21:40

Both cars stolen last night - Westpig

what a truly awful event.

Sadly the hour response time is increasingly becoming the norm, or in fact far worse...although obviously it should never be so...not for this post for me to whinge on about it....but a plea to all to remember 'not to shoot the messengers'

don't totally write off the counselling......although it's not for everyone...some years back after going through something pretty horrendous, my boss booked me some counselling and virtually insisted that i attend...i was a fully paid up member of 'deal with it yourself' and would never have bothered if it was down to me........he did me an enormous favour and i shall be eternally grateful for his foresight and compassion....despite being a seemingly grumpy old sod of the 'old school'.

don't forget though this sort of crime is still fairly rare........although of no consolation to you and your family

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 21:48

Both cars stolen last night - qxman {p}

I read in the paper of something very similar happening to a chap in Tamworth, the same 'M.O.' as they say on TV.
The police are largely the mopping up crew for the drinks industry these days so were probably too busy arguing politely with some drunken youths outside a local nightclub.
I wonder what the insurance situation is if you just hand over your keys?

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:00

Both cars stolen last night - rtj70

"I wonder what the insurance situation is if you just hand over your keys? "

He did not just hand over the keys. Four people with large knives threatening does not equate to just handing over does it. Are you suggesting we need a wound or two at minimum before we're believed? He will be fine insurance wise.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:04

Both cars stolen last night - Bill Payer

A more rapid Police response would be welcome, but, realistically, once the perps have gone then it's panic over.

I drive into Manchester quite a bit and considered buying an X5 a few yrs ago. A Police Officer friend said it might not be a good idea unless I (or, perhaps even more scarily) my wife wanted to be dragged out of it at gunpoint while stopped at lights.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:12

Both cars stolen last night - stuartl

I have to say that when I first started reading the op's first thread I thought it was the beginning of a tale with a funny ending..................

I now admit that I am shaking after reading the full details and trying to comprehend the sheer terror that they must have gone through.

People who subject innocent people to this kind of thing should NOT be locked up.
They should be STRUNG up. This sort of thing can quite literally ruin people's lives as the slightest noise outside in the future will have them out of their seats.

>>>>>>>>>>The police are largely the mopping up crew for the drinks industry these days so were probably too busy arguing politely with some drunken youths outside a local nightclub.

Yes, I agree entirely. Exercise zero tolerance with the drunken teenage clowns, that may get the message across and leave Police to deal with REAL crime and respond in less than a ridiculous 30 minutes. Criminals know that Police are far too busy these days fining people for dropping a fag end (no, I dont smoke), than to go after real criminals whose crimes can affect the rest of their victim's lives in just a few minutes to get their next fix of filth that they shoot up their arm or smoke or however they do it.

My thoughts are with the op and his family. What a terrible ordeal and absurd price to pay for having a couple of smart cars on the drive.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:03

Both cars stolen last night - local yokel

>Hence the reason why you should never leave these out where they can be seen

I think it was quite the best thing that they were available and to hand - it sppeded up the departure of the criminals, which was a good thing.

I can't begin to think how horrendous this must have been and will be for you. 4 v 1 with family in the house is no time for heroics, and you did all the right things.

Hope all improves as soon as it can.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:28

Both cars stolen last night - jdc

Hi folks

Your various messages are a great comfort - many, many thanks.

Some of the suggestions about fighting back are so wide of the mark it is almost funny ...... I am starting to take some comfort in thinking my actions were absolutely the right way to have gone about matters.

I gave them no response to the question "Where is your wife"

I told them I have no safe, whis is absolutely true, and I figured with all their shouting about the car keys, they were on a mission.

The 30 minutes response time, to be honest, is irrelevent. As one poster points out, once they had gone it was panic over and a horrible, gloom-filled, mist descended - we have become another crime statistic.

I've just got back from the restaurant my parents took us, but unfortunately I think the trauma is starting to hit home with my young son - he felt sick, couldn't eat and is showing all the signs of serious stress, had to take him home early - Mum is putting him to bed now.

During the meal I had a call from the Police - they have just arrested three thugs in my Fabia on false plates about 25 miles away in Lancashire and they are in custody over the weekend. Their houses are being raided right now to see if any of the items stolen from our house are there.

So, it looks as though both vehicles will be back shortly - in what condition I dont know.

Sadly, the effects for us, as a family will last a lot longer.

I will keep you posted as to the outcome and once again, many thanks for your kind words.

jdc

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:39

Both cars stolen last night - Vansboy

During the meal I had a call from the Police - they have just arrested

three thugs in my Fabia on false plates about 25 miles away in Lancashire and

they are in custody over the weekend. Their houses are being raided right now to

see if any of the items stolen from our house are there.

So it looks as though both vehicles will be back shortly - in what condition

I dont know.

Well done to the officers, that made this arrest, hope this reasolves something, at least.

Don't think I'd really want the vehicles, back, personally.

I'd have them sold asap.

VB

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:57

Both cars stolen last night - Chris M

" "As they raced through the hall they pinched Sat nav, wallets, purses, mobiles, cash etc."

Hence the reason why you should never leave these out where they can be seen. Not that that is of any use to you now, I know. "

I'm sorry PoloGirl, but I just can't agree with that. Had they not found an easy haul they may have ventured upstairs in search of jewelry etc. with potentially appalling consequences for wife and son!

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:28

Both cars stolen last night - Cardew

30 minutes response time for such a robbery seems an age - not near Middleton was it?

Can't understand why such violence is used for cars - which presumably do not have a huge value when stolen.

P.S.
We won the cricket!!!!

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:39

Both cars stolen last night - BobbyG

I have to be honest as well and say that when I read the title and then the start of the thread, I thought either

a. There is going to be a funny punch line to this story
b. This is going to be another "my BMW / Porsche were stolen from my driveway - I didn't realise that people would stick a hook through my letterbox and steal my prestigious car leys"

I have a Fabia vrS. I have a family. I just cannot even begin to think of the terror you went through.

Take the counselling, all of you take the counselling. Bottling things up to a later date is not the answer.

Just remember this was not anything against you or your family personally. They were after your cars and anything else they could get their hands on quickly. Just an absolutely horrific way to do it though.

--
2007 Seat Altea XL 2.0 TDI (140) Stylance
2005 Skoda Fabia vrS

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 22:47

Both cars stolen last night - Clanger

So sorry to hear this. Nothing to add to other comments but I wish you and your family well.
Hawkeye
-----------------------------
Stranger in a strange land

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 23:21

Both cars stolen last night - jdc

Interesting comments about leaving items out in the hall and Polo Girl's comment that maybe this is not such a good idea

During the fracas last night, they found the Subaru keys quite easily as they were out on the cupboards in the hall - the Skoda ones they couldnt find and this is when I said "Let me get them".

I went to where they usually are, but they weren't, went to the next usual place , not there ......... at this stage I'm thinking "crikey, where are they ? Why are they not 'out' ?" Thankfully, one of the thugs found them .... if they hadn't it could have been a very nasty few minutes with, potentially, the thugs going upstairs god forbid ...

I would say in retrospect, leave things out .....

jdc

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 23:29

Both cars stolen last night - sony

This is why I much prefer to live in a flat. Feels much safer when you own a car. They can't go through 50 flats before they find the owner can they!
Sorry to hear about what you went through, I cannot imagine how terrifying it must have been for you & your family.

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 23:29

Both cars stolen last night - Robin Reliant

A horrible and terrifying event. Glad you and the family are physically ok, but as others have said the trauma will take a long time to get over. I don't know if it has been in the mind of yourself and your wife, but my first instinct after a similar event would be to move house and banish some of the memories.

Having a firearm at home might seem like the answer to some people, but in a sudden raid like that you would simply not have time to get to it. With a young son in the house it would have to be locked away securely, and with a legally held shotgun I believe the police insist that the weapon and the ammunition have to be kept seperatly, and under secure lock and key. To get the gun and not have time to load it would lead to the worst consequences imaginable.
--

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Fri 31 Aug 2007 23:34

Both cars stolen last night - PoloGirl

Jdc, this is the Victim support site for young people - www.are-you-ok.org.uk

Not much on it at the moment, but your son might be the type who want to be left alone to read stuff on their own.

Normal victim support is www.victimsupport.org.uk. They have a helpline if you/your wife needed to speak to them over the weekend/next week.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 01:07

Both cars stolen last night - ihpj

I don't think anyone can appreciate what you and your family went through last night and the full trauma of what happened (and how it affected you) will not become apparent until much after the incident. You (and your family) were unharmed - and that, as far as anyone is concerned, is the right result. You could not have done anymore. You achieved your goal of keeping the family secure - and that is what counts. Everything else is by-the-by.

I think you should ask the Police about making a Victim Personal Statement as the post you have written sets out aptly the terror you personally experienced and the affect the incident has had on you and family. Each of you might want to submit such a statement, but certainly, you should look to do this. I shan't bore you (and the others) on this Forum with the full details of a VPS - just ask the Police if you can make one and I am sure it will be very beneficial for you (from a therapeutic stand point) but also help the Court understand the gravity of what happened.

Also, I would just like to address the issue of the 'half hour Police response'. I am sure that to many it seems like it took the Police a disproportionate amount of time to respond, but, without giving away too much, please understand that when a call of this nature (magnitude?) comes in, one of the first things done is to clarify who/what/where - what is happening, who has seen what, where are they now etc. etc. - then the information gets fast tracked to a Supv. to co-ordinate a suitable response. Remember, there is no value in sending a unsuitable Police response to a dangerous situation - it only serves to place the attending Officers themselves at risk ad danger. Suitable resources need to be identified, co-ordinated and then the response is delivered. If weapons are involved/high level of violence then you will need (perhaps) an Armed Response Vehicle as well as a Dog Handler with enough troops to cover the immediate area. This all takes time, especially if people have to be gathered 'in'. The response time is therefore appropriate and people can only work as fast as they can.

Property can be replaced, life cannot. I think you did the right thing in giving them what they wanted and got them out of the home ASAP.

-----
Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 01:10

Both cars stolen last night - Citroënian {P}

jdc,

Just found this thread - an appalling thing to happen to anyone. I am sure you did the right things throughout.

Take all the help you're offered - if you feel afterwards you don't need it, nothing lost but as westpg says it could be useful.

Lee

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 01:29

Both cars stolen last night - Avant

Just to add my sympathy and I hope it's helped to 'talk' about it on here.

Do take the advice to use Victim Support, even if you're not sure you or your family need it. A friend of mine has been chairman of Berkshire Victim Support and I know how they can help. They have volunteers who are skilled counsellors who will listen and give you what you need.

It's very difficult, isn't it, even in this age of equality, as husband and father to feel responsibly for the security of your wife and son whilst not felling at all secure yourself. Keep talking and get all the help that's available. Stiff upper lips are an overrated virtue.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 01:59

Both cars stolen last night - Blue {P}

My ***, that's horrific, my thoughts are with you all. I do sometimes worry that something like that could happen at my parent's house, if it happened to me I really don't know how I would cope.

I must say that I agree with most of the people who have replied, I think that you and your wife did exactly what was necessary, I'm sure that if the Police thought that they were still on site and posed immediate danger they would have responded more quickly, no matter what people say, the Police in this country are amongst the best in the world at dealing with really serious incidents.

I doubt that there is much that you could have done to prevent this, for certain I'm sitting in my living room now with some of the most pathetic double glazed doors imaginable wondering just how long it wouldn't take to smash through them.

I wish you all well and hope that you get over it as quickly as possible with no lasting effects in your young son.

Blue

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 03:10

Both cars stolen last night - JamesH

Just got back in quite late and had a read of the latest posts. The end of the line got to me:

The screech of the tyres of both cars as they left my drive will stay with me forever as will the cries of my son saying "Have they gone Dad ?"

I broke down upon reading that. Hope all gets back to normal again soon.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 08:33

Both cars stolen last night - barchettaman

Jdc, congratulations on keeping such a cool head in unimaginably appalling circumstances. In a comparable but not similar situation I didn´t, and ended up in hospital with a couple of knife wounds - they sting a bit.
Just to say I really hope you, your wife and son manage to come through this ordeal in good shape.
With our very best wishes,
Barchettaman and family.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 10:45

Both cars stolen last night - andymc {P}

What an appalling experience. I am full of admiration for how you handled it at the time - I would quite possibly, and stupidly, have tried to fight back and ended up losing far more than what is just stuff. You also seem to be dealing with the immediate aftermath as well as can be expected, but I would strongly echo the earlier suggestions that you avail of the chance to talk this through, both as a family and individually, with someone who knows how to listen. You may find yourself reliving/visualising the most traumatic moments and your wife and son may also experience the same - this is normal after such a shocking experience and will fade away in time.
Don't know whether you can relate to this, but after coming through a traumatic event myself, I kept thinking that it's good to be alive - this helped a lot. My sincerest best wishes to you all.
--
andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 10:46

Both cars stolen last night - Altea Ego

Well done JDC you handled that just right. From what I can read it appears your cool head and actions managed to shield your family from the worst of the terror. Containement and risk management when your family is around is the name of the game and you did both admirably.
------------------------------
< Ex RF, Ex TVM >

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 10:57

Both cars stolen last night - jdc

Thank you so much for the supportive comments - I can't tell you how much appreciate them - a great support. Thanks

My son slept well last night, albeit alongside me in bed rather than his own, in fact he complained about my snoring....!?

Seems a bit perkier .... but we'll see.

PG - thanks for the details about the support info - I will certainly be looking at this.

I will keep you all informed as to how things pan out.

Kind regards
jdc

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 10:58

Both cars stolen last night - tyro

jdc

As you say, it will certainly have changed your life, and you don't know for how long.

I was once involved in a very nasty and scary incident. The constabulary were rather conspicuous by their absence, when, IMHO, they should have had a presence. (btw, you are very kind about the police - frankly I think that 30 minutes is just plain unacceptable - but it will not be the ordinary bobbies who are to blame for that.)

The incident was nothing like as bad as yours, and there was no physical damage done. The problem was the mental scars that it left. It affected my behaviour for months (I can identify with what Pologirl says) and in some ways the effects have never gone away - in that it has to some extent served to make me a bit more cautious about where I go and what I do. To this day, over 30 years later, I must confess that I have no desire to talk about it. The thought that no physical harm was actually done and that it could have been a lot worse would not have comforted me much at the time.

All the same, I'm glad it was no worse for you. I hope you have decent people to talk it over with - whether the counsellors you use are 'official' or 'unofficial'.

Thanks for posting this - not least because some of the comments from other backroomers have been very interesting and helpful. It certainly makes a good advert for bangernomics. :-(

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 11:16

Both cars stolen last night - David Horn

Will you be expected to face them in Court to testify against them at some point?

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 11:36

Both cars stolen last night - Oz

I'm late on the scene on this thread but can only add to sentiments already expressed. Horrible, horrible. How can (especially) young children who were affected ever get these images out of their heads?

Oz (as was)

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 11:46

Both cars stolen last night - shoei

This also happened to my Mum who lives East Manchester. Instead of knifes it was a gun. Police responded within 5 minutes, helicopter the lot. Never found the scumbags. She now drives a Seat Ibiza so as not to draw attention to herself. If you want a desirable car then be carefull. I drive an old Golf.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 12:19

Both cars stolen last night - Big Bad Dave

I'm glad you're ok JDC

I think there are other preventitive measures you can take. Where I live all houses have external roll-down shutters on all the patio doors and windows. When the sun goes down, at the press of a button, all the shutters go down too. In the daytime you can't see them, in the night time you don't care. We also have panic buttons hooked to a private security firm, although whether that's an option in the UK, I don't know.

Very best wishes

Dave

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 12:34

Both cars stolen last night - GregSwain

Where I live all houses have external roll-down shutters on all the patio doors and windows.

I find that quite shocking to be honest BBD. I live in an area that's considered quite rough, yet I've never felt the need to even install a burglar alarm.

As for JDC, the sentiments of everyone else are echoed by me - far better to give them the cars than pay with your life. Just be glad you're uninjured and will be able to go out and purchase 2 more cars when the insurance coughs up. Unfortunately this sort of thing seems to be getting more and more common, and the Police seem to think 30 minutes is an acceptable response time (which I find astounding).

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 12:39

Both cars stolen last night - peanut

I can't add anything that hasn't been said already, but feel gutted (and scared) just reading this. . I'm truly sorry this happened to you and your family, and my thoughts are with you all. You can only hope the thugs get put away for a long time: I wonder if it ever crosses their mind what effect they have, and how would they feel if their family had to go through this?

Peanut.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 12:57

Both cars stolen last night - NowWheels

Where I live all houses have external roll-down shutters on all the patio doors and windows.

That sort of device can have a marginal benefit, but in the big picture, I don't think that these technical measures do much except displace the problem -- initially to other unprotected houses, but then (when other houses have caught up) to another point of vulnerability. Marlot describes the situation very well further up his thread: www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=55381&...e

This sort of crime is a social problem, which needs social solutions. Depending on which part of criminologist's handbook takes your fancy, that may be anything from lock-em-up-for-ages to remedial work with young tearaways before they become fully-grown hoodlums ... but in the end the problem is that we have people who want to do this stuff, and it won't stop until we solve that problem.

The difficulty is that society seems unable to either agree on what particular solution(s) are best for dealing with these people, or to effectively implement those solutions which are agreed.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 13:28

Both cars stolen last night - Vansboy

Donald Macintyre is on Channel 5 Monday 10pm - undercover with the type of criminals who have carried out this nasty crime.

Safe as Houses prog is called.

VB

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 17:06

Both cars stolen last night - Big Bad Dave

"I find that quite shocking to be honest BBD. I live in an area that's considered quite rough, yet I've never felt the need to even install a burglar alarm"

Yeah Greg but I bet you keep your car locked up. I tell you what I find shocking - the amount of effort people put into car security, then think it's unusual to take proper measures to secure one's home. Deadlocks, alarms, crooklocks, disklocks, immobilisers, trackers - but you're shocked that I take my home security very, very seriously indeed. When I'm in the car, more often than not, I'm pumped-up, psyched-up, alert... I double-dare you to attack me with a machette. But when I'm at home I'm either fast asleep in bed or half asleep on the couch with one hand on the tv remote and one hand scratching myself. That's when I'm vulnerable. That's where my wife and kids are. House or car - which one is the more valuable?

Nowheels wrote "That sort of device can have a marginal benefit, but in the big picture, I don't think that these technical measures do much except displace the problem -- initially to other unprotected houses"

If a marginal benefit for you is the difference between being attacked by four knife-wielding hooligans in your own home or sitting safe inside listening to them exhaust themselves in an exercise in futlility while I light a fag and call the police at leisure - well I'd like to hear your definition of an extreme benefit. Yes I've only displaced the problem - preferably by 10 miles but I'll settle for next door.

"This sort of crime is a social problem, which needs social solutions. "

I'm only a graphic designer unfortunately, limited in what I can do to just ticking a square in a ballot box. But when these social problems are solved I promise to remove the shutters, until then, they stay. They keep the house nice and cool in the Summer and stop the light shining on the telly.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 17:26

Both cars stolen last night - GregSwain

Yeah Greg but I bet you keep your car locked up.

Nope. I press the remote-button to lock the doors, but it's then left in a communal parking area outside my house, on a very average council estate. Other than the factory-fitted immobiliser it's got absolutely no security devices fitted. It's never been damaged or messed with by anyone to my knowledge. I just assumed most civilised places were the same - how wrong I obviously was.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 13:41

Both cars stolen last night - barney100

You have my sympathies and I am glad you and yours are safe. Its a nightmare scenario and there as little you could have done, if you had belted one of the yobs with your bat it is you who would be in nick probably. It is only a matter of time before these people will be caught for something else and get what they deserve.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 14:56

Both cars stolen last night - local yokel

It appears that the criminals were attracted to the opportunity of one or both of two high performance cars.

The only realistic solution to this is to park cars out of sight from the road, such as in a garage, so that they can not be seen by passers by.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 20:16

Both cars stolen last night - Fullchat

During the meal I had a call from the Police - they have just arrested

three thugs in my Fabia on false plates about 25 miles away in Lancashire and

they are in custody over the weekend. Their houses are being raided right now to

see if any of the items stolen from our house are there.

And I sure they will be availing themselves of all their human rights and free legal entitlements. Makes my blood boil when they have subjected you and your family to this life changing event.
They are nothing but the scum of the earth without fear of the law and no values that we like to share.

Well done you did exactly the right things. I have seen and dealt with some shocking things but reading this post made my stomach turn. I had a visualisation of the event.

Westpig and others have given you sound advice. I hope the moderators will let this thread run, as it becomes more motor unrelated, for you to share your burden and receive some support from 'the forum family'
--
Fullchat

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 20:32

Both cars stolen last night - Ravenger

The only realistic solution to this is to park cars out of sight from the

road such as in a garage so that they can not be seen by passers

by.

We shouldn't have to lock away or hide all our worldly goods, just in case some criminal decides he'd like to steal from us.

The more realistic solution is to lock up anyone who commits terrible crimes like this for a long time, and make it harsh. Punish them severely, set them as an example, and maybe, just maybe, honest citizens will be free to go about their business free of fear and worry, and without having to hide everything they own out of sight.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 20:54

Both cars stolen last night - daiking

I don't post often but after reading you post jdc, I'm deeply shocked. It sounds like you couldn't not have done anything better in your response and I hope you and your family can, in time, overcome this event.

As to what should happen to the perpertrators...

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 20:57

Both cars stolen last night - J Bonington Jagworth

"The only realistic solution to this is to park cars out of sight from the road, such as in a garage, so that they can not be seen by passers by."

And leave an old banger in view!

Still reeling from the OP, however. It has reminded me how fortunate some of us are to live in relative peace and quiet, where we rarely lock anything and leave bikes and boats outside. Even children, when the weather's hot and they want to camp in the garden...

As has been mentioned already, it makes one question the way our society is heading. I wish I had answers.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 21:11

Both cars stolen last night - Pugugly {P}

"I hope the moderators will let this thread run"

Its motoring related....

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 21:25

Both cars stolen last night - jdc

Good evening everyone,

Once again, many, many thanks for your kind support and comments.

Today has been a better day - young son is showing signs of recovery, he is still quiet, subdued, questioning - "why us Dad ?" and so on - but at least he has slept. He wanted to accompany me as I took spare keys to the recovery yard, get estimate fr replacement keys and so on ....

We have spent the afternoon at the rugby club where we have a great 'family' and so loads of supportive comments.

The police called earlier to say an X-box had been find in one the thug's houses, unfortunately it wasnt ours.

The Subaru is in a local compound and the Subaru garage reckon on a 2-3 day turn-around should the forensics be finished.

The Skoda is somewhere in Lancashire at a police yard - the police called one minute ago and advised this crime is part of a much larger affair where a Volvo and a Lexus have also been stolen in similar circumstances for some major robbery in lancashire. Hopefully this has now been stopped in view of the 3 thugs being held in custody.

The Loss Adjustor still hasn't turned up so we are still wondering what to do about the boarded up window, the loss of effects, mobiles, etc.etc.

I cannot explain how helpful this forum has been.

I have posted before, in relatively minor terms to do with vehicle ownership, particularly Subaru, and I never thought I would have to post what I have done in this thread.

Unfortunately, there are so many questions to answer above, that I will have to come back at a later stage to thank each poster - but believe me, your thoughts/answers are a fantastic help, in particular with what the reaction to what I should have done when these thugs burst in.........

I have an annual golf trip coming up in 2 weeks where I go away with 7 other rugby mates and do you know what my thoughts are now ? How can I leave my wife and kids alone ???

It just does not seem fair.

Through all this, there has been some really postiive stuff - the lady who phoned my Mum (after checking through the phone book for surnames) to say a purse had been found, the person who spotted the plates being changed and called the police, the messages from you lot, the support from family and rugby friends ........

As always, I will keep you all up to date

jdc

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 21:51

Both cars stolen last night - Westpig

most police forces employ Crime Prevention Officers.....(nowadays i think they're called Crime Prevention Design Advisors)... and they will have been on courses etc and/or inter-acted with the security industry..... which means you could easily get free unbiased information on sensible options to narrow down some of your fears

the OIC (officer in case) i.e person in charge of your crime will be able to help you, if not the Victim Support people

with what has happened to you, i'd be surprised and disappointed if you don't get top dollar treatment

these advisers often have local contacts who will do work for a reasonable amount and to a degree come recommended

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 22:00

Both cars stolen last night - jdc

Thanks Westpig

At this stage, no-one has come forward or contacted us with any counselling advice.

My wife and I are now chatting over a few glasses of wine and trying to put the pieces together but as I say, no-one has officially come forward to offer advice .......

jdc

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 21:59

Both cars stolen last night - Altea Ego

Unless the wife and kids are somewhere, there is NO way that you are going to be happy playing golf while they are at home alone. Your swing is carp anyway, so I would cancel it this year.
------------------------------
< Ex RF, Ex TVM >

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 22:02

Both cars stolen last night - jdc

Altea Ego

Agree entirely with all you say..... however, my swing is not carp.

jdc

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 22:16

Both cars stolen last night - local yokel

If it's not your swing then it must be your short game that's carp....

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 22:16

Both cars stolen last night - Westpig

jdc,

large bureaucratic organisations with those at the sharp end rushed off their feet, don't always get it right....... you might have to ask for stuff.

I'd imagine people will go the extra mile if you do ask, but nevertheless you might have to push it along a bit

don't patiently wait.....you deserve and need a bit more IMO

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 22:44

Both cars stolen last night - barchettaman

You´ll definitely have to putt the trip off ´til next year.
Sorry.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 22:52

Both cars stolen last night - 1066

if you don't get offered any counselling i would be very honoured to pay for a few sessions and help towards any security you feel you may need. if i was near enough ( don't know where you live) i could find somebody to watch out if you do go on your deserved holiday.

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Sat 1 Sep 2007 22:56

Both cars stolen last night - boxsterboy

Crumbs, this is an horrendous story, but glad to hear you responded in the right way, and especially glad to hear your kid seems to be getting over it.

Catching the perps and getting your cars back are of course secondary to your well-being.

Crime like this is statistically rare, of course, but that doesn't stop it happening if you just happen to be that statistic.

Hope you all continue to recover.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 00:04

Both cars stolen last night - slowdown avenue

what an awful experience, perhaps its a good time to get a dog, they can be great comfort, dobermans make good family guard dogs, leave the keys in his basket

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 00:32

Both cars stolen last night - Avant

"At this stage, no-one has come forward or contacted us with any counselling advice."

I'm a little surprised as I thought police forces nationally offered Victim Support. Thames Valley offer it I think for any victim of crime - even me when I had a data projector stolen from the car.

If they haven't, it would be worth giving them a ring.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 01:50

Both cars stolen last night - henry k

"At this stage no-one has come forward or contacted us with any counselling advice."

I'm a little surprised as I thought police forces nationally offered Victim Support.

Thames Valley offer it I think for any victim of crime -

>>
That is my experience. Even when I had the my parking meter purse taken from my car ( un-locked in the drive) and no damage or other loss.
I had only reported it for goverment stats and to keep our local beat bobby informed.
They were very quick to call me and I was most impressed. They did gently probe after my immediate response re just reporting a theft. I could not fault them
>>
I agree that >> If they haven't it would be worth giving them a ring.
>>

jdc. Thanks for sharing your horrible experience with us. I too wish you and your family a speedy recovery ( as much as is possible).

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 09:30

Both cars stolen last night - local yokel

>dobermans make good family guard dogs, leave the keys in his basket

Agreed - we have a Dobermann, and they are superb. Crims don't like them, and they are totally safe with their family (and your friends), leave Rotweilers to the stocky types with shaven heads.

I made the point earlier about having to park attractive cars out of sight, and one or two commented. IMHO it's much the same principle as not leaving satnavs, phones, laptops etc in the car when in a public place.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 09:55

Both cars stolen last night - cheddar

Been away, just scanned this, a terrible experience.

A late friend of my parents always left the car keys on the hall table and a £20 note on the dressing table, the theory being that a theif would take omne or both and not ransack the house.

I have never done the £20 note thing, perhaps £50 would be more relevant nowdays, though I always leave the car keys in the hall, not that our cars are worth a great deal though they may satisfy some.

Much better to provide some easy bounty that is insured have the house turned over, or perhaps worse.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 10:40

Both cars stolen last night - Altea Ego

>dobermans make good family guard dogs leave the keys in his basket

Agreed - we have a Dobermann and they are superb. Crims don't like them and

they are totally safe with their family (and your friends) leave Rotweilers to the stocky

types with shaven heads.

The finest *family* guard dog is a Malinois. Fiercly protective of its family, completely brave (dobermans can be faced down and in some breed lines there are genetic control issues) big and scary for those that dont know what they are, and very very safe if trained from a pup.
------------------------------
< Ex RF, Ex TVM >

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 12:03

Both cars stolen last night - Robin Reliant

I used to moan at the fact that my two dogs bark like mad when anyone comes to the door, but after reading this thread they'll now get a pat on the head and a "Good boy, good girl" when they do the same. They are both as soppy as anything, but a potential intruder won't know that.
--

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 12:20

Both cars stolen last night - Fullchat

Perhaps as three are in custody, the pace of the investigation and detention time limits has perhaps diverted the investigating officers from following up on the Victim Support stuff.
If you have given a statement you should have had been given a Victim Care booklet. You should still be required to give a VPS (Victim Personal Statement) if you have not already done so which allows you to explain how you feel and how the incident has impacted on your family.
I am sure the OIC will be soon in touch and may address these issues. If not they may require a little reminder.
--
Fullchat

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 12:58

Both cars stolen last night - FP

I have refrained from posting on this topic for a while, because my only reaction was of outrage that such a thing has happened, but I would now like to add my sympathy and support for the OP and family. May you find a resolution to the experience, hopefully reasonably quickly. It must have been awful for you, beyond words.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 13:22

Both cars stolen last night - Vin {P}

jdc,

I've given this some thought over the past couple of days.

The instant these lowlifes decided to get inside your house, there was nothing you could do to stop it, or to stop the mental anguish you're going through.

Given that, it seems to me that you've come out of this as well as is possible. They have threatened rather than damaged you. They have stolen "stuff". They haven't touched your wife or son. Sounds to me that within the parameters of the paragraph above, you did all the right things to minimise the other effects. To get it so right under such pressure is indeed impressive. Well done.

Take my feelings about the lowlifes as read.

In terms of "counselling", I would suggest that if necessary, you get it from a CBT (Cognitive Behaviour Therapist). Their basic premise is that the past has happened, so you can do nothing about it. The future, and how you react to situations from now on, is in your control.

I really do think you should concentrate on the positives; you lost "Stuff", which is replaceable. Your family at least suffered no physical damage. You made the right choices under extreme pressure.

Good luck,

V

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 17:04

Both cars stolen last night - barney100

Posted sympathies before but didn't know you were a golfer. This may cheer you up. Story going round our club about a senior lady member who was accosted on the course by a yob. She struck him firmly with her 7 iron and did him damage, the police said she was in error hitting the poor lad with her 7 iron and did she now regret it. She replied that she did regret it as her club selection was at fault and a pitching wedge would have much better for the job.........................

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 17:10

Both cars stolen last night - cattleman6

I really am dreadfully sorry to hear of your appalling experience.
I really hope they will give the police power and money to properly deal with the terrible things going on in the U.K. at the moment.It is unbelievably bad.
I wish you and your family the very best of recovery.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 17:36

Both cars stolen last night - Bilboman

Deepest condolences for the terrible attack you and your family suffered, jdc. I can't imagine what it must have been like. When faced with attackers so brazen and vicious as these, and it comes down to "fight or flight", the instinct to survive, to protect yourself and loved ones is obviously stronger and in the end is the right one. Let them take their haul - "it's only material things".
There was absolutely nothing you could have done differently; I don't think anyone short of a fully tooled up member of the SAS could have repulsed an attack like this. Your show great courage and dignity in sharing this story with us without bitterness or thirst for revenge.
I hope the police find enough evidence on these savage thugs to convict them without having to put you through the ordeal of a court case; and I hope you and your family find the strength to getl through the weeks and months ahead.
Middle Britain - the vast majority of decent law-abiding people of these Isles - are with you all the way.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 18:03

Both cars stolen last night - Hamsafar

If people do decide to keep weapons such as bats and oven cleaner spray in convenient locations in their house, you must at the same time as placing them know the story you will use to explain why they were there.
Someone at work thought they heard someone downstairs at night and got a bat out of the wardrobe and went down to investigate and found someone in their house. He beat them severely as they escaped through the window they had come in. When he told the Police this in the statement they wrote that he went downstairs and saw someone was very scared and and picked up a bat which he had left in the hall after a game of cricket. He said I didn't say that, and the Police said, I know it's stupid, that's what I have to put or I'd have to arrest you as your state of mind showed a pre-meditated attack.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 18:18

Both cars stolen last night - rtj70

The danger of having weapons of any sort at hand is the intruder(s) could use them on you. And with young children about you won't want them getting their hand on the "weapons" either.

In Pensylvannia (and probably other US states?), apparently if someone is breaking into your house by say climbing through a window, if you shoot them and kill them and they fall out of the house you're in deep trouble. If they fall into the house you should be okay. So you have to wait for their centre of gravity to be such that they fall in. The person who told me that had various guns including an AK-47 at home! It wasn't fully automatic though, so that's okay then.... but he did know how to make it fully automatic and it had the re-inforced barrel to withstand the heat.

Hope jdc and family are okay. And I'll say like others you did the right thing - hand over whatever they want and get rid of them ASAP. I know of someone who did challenge thugs who broke in with knifes etc. He didn't give the car keys as they were upstairs and so was the family. But they did hit him several times with a lump of wood with nails in it. He chased them off down the street. He sold the performance car at a big loss the very next day - his wife insisted.

A neighbour of ours had their cars stolen a few years back. Thieves smashed the front door in using a sledgehammer in the early hours. They were that brazen! And had machetes. Their house is probably worth £0.5M and ours only about £0.4M so it's not a bad area. But I now have a boring Mondeo, to be replaced with the Mazda6... would not risk say a Lexus.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 18:36

Both cars stolen last night - J Bonington Jagworth

"a pre-meditated attack"

So you can't keep your cricketing (or baseball) things in your wardrobe? There's all sorts of stuff in mine, including some golf woods.

I suppose if the OP had retaliated, he would have had to use 'reasonable force', as if the same constraint applied to the raiders who, as I recall, had just thrown a paving slab through his double-glazing!

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 18:43

Both cars stolen last night - Westpig

it's been said before

if you whack hell out of an intruder because you fear for your own or another's safety, as long as it's 'reasonable' then you're in the clear. Causing someone's death in those circumstances could still be 'reasonable', there was one in the press IIRC where Billy Burglar fell out of the window and died.

If you do the same but do so out of anger or at a time they can't do you or another any harm i.e. they're trying to get away, then you're in the mire.....because the law says you didn't need to do that.

protect yourself/another...yes
revenge/anger......no

it's the way it is....and why Tony Martin 'went away'

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 18:54

Both cars stolen last night - Hamsafar

The point is that if you go downstairs with a bat (or whatever), that is bad in the eyes of the law, you have to convince them it was a reflex of self-protection as a last resort in the heat of the moment.
What could get you into bother is the mens rea (guilty mind) - the act of taking a weapon with you, rather than the act of going downstairs or the cat of picking up something to hand and using that as a weapon - actus rectus (guilty act).

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 18:55

Both cars stolen last night - Pugugly {P}

Exactly Hamsafar.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 18:49

Both cars stolen last night - Aretas

jdc, I think this story deserves a wider audience than this web site. Maybe you should write it up yourself and submit it to a national newspaper, or maybe HJ has a contact who could write it?

I do hope the mental scars heal quickly.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 19:12

Both cars stolen last night - local yokel

When it's one against four it really makes no sense to do anything other than comply. Only if it's one on one do you sensibly consider fighting back, and then because you really think you can win.

I took on a 16 y/o attacker in the street, when I was 28, and very confident following six years with David Stirling's unit. He lost. He also got 10 stitches in the back of the head from the length of wood that he came at me with. He was one of three that attacked me and a serving but off-duty copper, so I knew he would also fight back. The poor wee lambs were a tad surprised.

If I was on my own/with family in the house I'd show them the way the keys hanging up by the Dobermann's bed....

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 19:21

Both cars stolen last night - Lud

If you show intruders a shotgun or Samurai sword or similar they should retreat if they have any sense. The trouble is if you're going to do that the gun had better be loaded or you had better be prepared to slice them with the sword, in case they don't. Would you be? Most people wouldn't. People who bash into your house with paving stones are quite likely to be better at violence than you are unless you have special skills in this area.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 20:16

Both cars stolen last night - Screwloose

Lud

These being feral creatures they likely would retreat if faced by a terrified man with a pump-action. [That's a prospect that would even get the attention of a "short-and-sharp" team.] Closing with them waving a cricket bat.....

[Oh and you can only shoot people through windows in the movies. Even single glazing ruins any sort of accuracy.]

As the OP has said that he wouldn't feel comfortable resisting [as is his choice] then installing some effective security is his best plan.

It's depressing to think that this sort of incident is now so commonplace; [I've had to actively discourage two nocturnal "visits" from non-members of the Caravan Club in the last week alone.]

Twenty-five years ago; violence of this sort was the province of those on first-name terms with the Sweeney - now kids casually deploy it to nick a Skoda....

Anybody like to suggest a country [that'll actually let you in...] where you can live quietly without turning your house/farm into your own personal prison - because we've lost this once-pleasant land.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 19:44

Both cars stolen last night - PhilW

I have followed this thread from the beginning but have not responded before because, quite honestly, I found it appallingly unbelievable. The thought that 4 machete wielding thugs could do this left me speechless - for a million pounds maybe , but for a couple of cars, mobiles, wallets etc ???? And as for a cricket bat being any use against them?? Strikes me, you responded in the right way, an admirable way, material goods can be replaced but the damage inflicted on yourself, wife and son by a machete might not be repairable. Glad to hear that golf and rugby clubs are also being supportive (as well as "friends" on here). As for your golf trip - it might help you get over the trauma, and I wonder if wife and son could do something similar to help them - trip to Centre Parcs (of which I know nothing!) or similar so they are not alone at home??? Might be worth the expense.
I don't expect the full impact has yet hit you and your family, but, thank goodness, you are all still here and physically unharmed - the mental effects may take some time to appear and overcome, but I wish you all the best and offer my sympathy and hope for a good future. And if you can deal with this in such a composed way, the future should hold no fears.
Best wishes

--
Phil

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 19:19

Both cars stolen last night - Zippy123

JDC,

I think that you did the right thing and the results are that both you and your family have survived this appalling incident with emotional scars. Note that I don?t say ?only emotional scars? because these can also be severe.

A colleague at work had a similar incident happen to him and again his family was unhurt.

I truly believe that these people will turn nasty if you bring out a weapon, so you did the right thing.

In my honest opinion crime is getting worse in this country and prison sentences and taxes (to keep them in prison) should rise accordingly.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 19:45

Both cars stolen last night - gmac

JDC,

I can't believe what I've just read (marathon session) could happen in the UK.
I can't offer any advice as never been on the receiving end of anything like this despite living in London, New York and Amsterdam.

I do hope your family and yourself manage to get back to some kind of normality sooner rather than later.

gmac.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 22:18

Both cars stolen last night - eProf

jdc - Well done on keeping a cool head in frightening circumstances! That was bravery!
This is a little close to home for me, having lived in Johannesburg which is one of the crime capitals of the world, for twenty years.
For home defences, the name "Trellidor" sprang to mind. They are trellis gates of immense strength; I had them fitted to my house in Jo'burg. They are available in the UK, see www.trellicor.co.uk.
jdc - I salute your bravery!
--
e Prôf - Another Recycled Teenager

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 22:37

Both cars stolen last night - Happy Blue!

Although not the same level of violence, some of you may recall I was the victim of an attemtped car jacking (Subaru Forester Turbo) about three years ago. That was frightening enough with two guys weilding sledge hammers at my windows. Fortunately I wasn't hurt, nor was the car taken from me (by pure luck), but I know I was scared witless, so sympathise big time with jdc.

The attack on jdc was rather worrying as there are a few of us around Manchester with Subaru Legacys or Outbacks, so thankfully the crims are under arrest. It does make you wonder what you should drive for a good drive without standing out from the crowd. Most people have no idea what my car is and do not recognise the symbol on the grille.

I hope that jdc and family gets back to feeling normal relatively soon. The best thing I can say is that you should force your life back to normal as soon as possible and take that golfing holiday. Lightening rarely strikes twice and you family are bound to spend one night on their own without you at some point, so get back the horse now before its too late. When you really need to be away for a night unexpectedly, you want to be able to go without worrying too much.

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Sun 2 Sep 2007 22:38

Both cars stolen last night - Pugugly {P}

Trellidor are available in the UK we have them fitted in one of our Offices. They are recommended by being "sold secure" which means something (really).

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