My father was an Engineer in the RAF during the war. I remember his telling me that the Americans produced an aeroplane that was welded rather than bolted together (no doubt somebody will tell me what it was). No servicing - save for the engine - possible. There is nothing new under the sun.
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The above should not be construed as a recommendation or advice. Be
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The new requirements for manufacturers to be responsible for vehicles from production line to dismantlers yard may also be behind this. They will be arguing if you want us to deal with the car when it dies we need to ensure it is returned to us so we can deal with dismantling it and recycling the parts where necessary.
If the car is designed and manufactured with recyclable parts which are then replaced with aftermarket alternatives producers won't be happy about having to deal with this waste.
This proposal could also affect those who are into modifying vehicles.
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Isn?t there a Federal requirement in the US for car computers to have a standard interface?
If so, how do BMW/MB etc get on, or does the requirement only extend to reading fault codes?
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Isn?t there a Federal requirement in the US for car computers to have a standard interface? If so how do BMW/MB etc get on or does the requirement only extend to reading fault codes?
Yes, there has to be a standard connector (the 16-pin SAE J1962 connector) and a standard code set for engine management defects which can affect emissions. Proprietry codes are in addition to this. This is essentially the US 'OBD II' standard. In the EU we have the parallel 'EOBD' standard.
My post is not about reading standard fault codes though. Its about the manufacturers using the technology of the CANBUS to accept or deny new components (bulbs, batteries, ECU's, sensors etc) onto the vehicle network. Even if the independent buys all the kit (for all the different brands) then the actual 'code number' itself would still have to be obtained from the dealer. They might not give it up; or they might charge a high fee to release it.
A current valid illustration might be a failed MAF sensor on an A-class. Its incorporated with the ECU so an entire new unit must be purchased. Once fitted the car will not run until the M-B dealer has coded this to the car - my local M-B dealer charge about £150 for this!!
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This is quite literally diabolical. A bit like mining and other jobs in which the wages are swallowed up by rent for a bed in a dormitory and food from the company store.
I have chuntered on a few times here about radical dependence. This is a big fat juicy example of it. You don't have to be in Aprilia's shoes to perceive it as utter depravity.
I say here and now that whatever my circumstances I will never buy a car like that. I'd rather make one myself and drive it illegally.
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My post is not about reading standard fault codes though.
I did realise that but it seems pointless standardising the interface for fault code acquisition while at the same time keeping back the ability to correct the fault. Where's the logic there?
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I did realise that but it seems pointless standardising the interface for fault code acquisition while at the same time keeping back the ability to correct the fault. Where's the logic there?
The final part of the repair (recommissioning of the part to the network) cannot be done without main dealer intervention (either physically, or by supplying a code). Hence main dealer has control over all repairs and makes lots of money. Very logical from their point of view!
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This article on vendor lock-in is good:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in
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Hence main dealer has control over all repairs and makes lots of money. Very logical from their >> point of view!
Of course, but isn't the idea of these US Federal and European common standards to enable the opening up the car repair business?
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BP
The US OBD-II and the European EOBD standards only cover emission-related engine faults.
I.e. only a small portion of the engine ECU fault codes - and that's only one of 35[?] networked ECUs on a current car.
Even now; no independent garage can afford the equipment necessary to offer multi-make all-systems diagnostics to the adaption level. That involves buying dealer-level equipment and software [if available] for all the different makes. Hopelessly uneconomic.
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One might hope that car buyers might vote with their feet.
But.
1. It starts with MB and luxury cars. Their drivers don't mind paying the extra.
2. It then spreads to other manufacturers, so, short of building your own car you have no choice.
3. It doesn't hit the owners of new cars. It's when things start to fail... the ABS light comes on, and your £1,000 car is junk.
The Government is happy because so-called polluting older cars are removed from the roads and a headline-grabbing statement is made to that effect - ignoring the pollution arising from scrapping older cars.
Manufacturers are delirious as cars have a shorter life.
Punters pay more for their motors.
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The above should not be construed as a recommendation or advice. Be
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I think as more and more of this is built into cars, it will be reverse-engineered by h@ck3rs. The Apple iPhone was made to work without signing up to AT&T within a few days, it was made to work on other networks within a few weeks. Other mobile phones were unlocked by all sorts of impressive decryption techniques which will have taken a considerable amount of time, money and effort to circumvent.
Look at how encrypted/copy protected DVDs were cracked almost straight after their release, and even the new HDDVD which was supposed to be un-crackble was cracked within a few weeks.
The same will happen with cars, there will be a thriving market for third parties, and for open-source projects. In fact, these are already emerging with things like Lemmiwinks and CCMUP.
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BP
This isn't about fault-codes; this is another layer completely - adaptions. New components carry electronic ID and have to be "married" to the existing network to function. [Forget re-using secondhand parts; this is a one-shot deal.]
It's already common practice and can be a major headache. Body control modules [jumped-up fuseboxes] control nearly all the supplementary systems and when a failure occurs on any one it requires the whole module to be replaced.
The new module has first to be security coded and integrated into the network, then configured to operate all the body systems that are fitted to that particular car - a huge amount of data to input [40 pages of print-off is quite normal.]
This can take upwards of four hours on a French car; you think you've finished - and then the wipers won't work on slow speed... or one of the keys isn't recognized....
That is already old hat; it's been around for years. Recently, getting the necessary authorization coding has started to get difficult or impossible - even the dealers aren't allowed access to it anymore. As these ID chips spread into more and more parts on a car; then this process is becoming ever more necessary - even for things like tyre-changing. [Tyre pressure monitor chips.]
It won't matter if the VMs release the data or not. There's simply not enough people in the trade that can be trained to work at this level.
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Manufacturers are being monumentally short-sighted here.
Look at what has happened to the electronics industry -- electricals are quite literally disposable items now. But this has not had the desired effect for many of the larger companies -- where Philips once had the advantage of a parts network etc etc, now any Chinese outfit can come along, with no backup, and undercut the established players with impunity.
The same will happen with cars. Once they've been established as semi-disposable, people will just start wanting them as cheaply as possible. With the differences in driving dynamics, reliability, build etc between the cheapest and the best becoming narrower every year, it won't be long before the Chinese clean up here as well and Renault/Ford/Honda/VW will be but distant memories.
Like I say, very short-sighted -- this idea will just accelerate the decline.
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jase1
Spot-on! [At least somebody can see what's coming.]
Local garages will simply follow the TV repairman into history. And soon.
Cars will be built by the Chinese; sold through multi-make supermarkets; low-level [warranty-only] repairs will be attempted by their attached Halfords-style workshops.
Anything even slightly complex will require returning the car to the makers' central repair facility - where it will be found to cost more than the car's worth.... so they'll just do you a deal on a new one. [After all; it was nearly 3-years old...]
2009 Chu-Chin-Chau Wizzo XLS TDxi 1.4 AZR Turbo anyone? [Going cheap...]
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The difference between the car industry products and the electronics industry products is that cars still contain significant amounts of understandable 'old fashioned' mechanicals. These 'heavy engineering' items actually cost money to produce and can be fettled by people with a modicum of engineering skill. It is the control systems that cost nothing to make, but a fortune to repair and are not generally understood by the conventional motor trade employee and that result in a return to manufacturer philosophy.
Hence my earlier post.
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pmh (was peter)
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I don't think it's fair to say that the silicon in cars costs nothing to make (some ECUs are quite sophisticated and the chips contained therein can be expensive to fabricate), but it is fair to say that the majority of the costs are associated with the software which is much more difficult to put a value on. There is no reason why a back-street garage can't learn how these systems work, but that would involve employing IT specialists who actually demand their £20-30 an hour (as opposed to getting away with paying the equally highly-skilled mechanic £9 an hour and passing £60+ an hour to the punter).
As cars move over to non-combustion propulsion, that's when we'll see the death of the traditional back-street garage. And it'll be a shame, as I see the value in older vehicles as much as the next man.
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I don't think it's fair to say that the silicon in cars costs nothing to make (some ECUs are quite sophisticated and the chips contained therein can be expensive to fabricate) ...
I don't know of a micro-controller in a car that costs more than £10 in volume. The sale price of an ECU shouldn't be confused with the cost.
There's more processing power in a modern mobile phone.
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I read often, only post occasionally
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The sale price of an ECU shouldn't be confused with the cost.
True, but the price of the components shouldn't be confused with the cost either - design, development and (especially) testing costs will be be significant.
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>Spot-on! [At least somebody can see what's coming.]
>Local garages will simply follow the TV repairman into history. And soon.
And why is the TV repairman history? because the TV is now so cheap its not worth getting it repaired. Computers the same. Cars will go the same way.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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>There's simply not enough people in the trade that can be trained to work at this level.<
But surely this does not matter. Most of the expertise to do this de/coding is not of mechanic level, it just requires application in a different field by people with an IT background. As a previous poster said most modern 'unhackable' devices have been hacked in days or weeks. The difference is maybe that DVDs, software packages or phones sell in much greater numbers (but at lower prices) and that 'failures' do not cost the 'experimenter' much in hard cash terms.
An increasing number of people with an IT background are buying interfaces for their existing cars and it will not be long before home brewed ECUs, maybe with open source software start becoming available. Should make for an interesting time once road pricing, tracking all become integrated!
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pmh (was peter)
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Indeed. How much does anyone want to bet that the first Linux-based ECU will be in a Chinese car? :)
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pmh
I don't think that hacking will be of any help. There's people that can do that already with immobilizers etc. Where do you find one of them on a wet Saturday afternoon?
My point was that the sheer scale of adaptions will inevitably force owners to use the dealers or diagnostic specialists on a frequent basis.
If you've got to take it to the dealers to be coded-in - then you might as well let them supply and fit it too. [Even if the genuine part is dearer.] That happens now.
There's already a desperate need for people with a good IT background in the motor trade - but where are they?
Old crinklies like me should be being driven out by an upcoming tide of Playstation-generation kids; but there's hardly anybody following us at all. We're getting out; who's taking our places?
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SL
volvospeed.com/vs_forum/index.php?showtopic=79984
If you want to get a flavour of what some individuals are capable of doing just look at the link above - get thro to page3!. OK not the most modern technology, and not at the top professional end of IT but interesting. (I found that example in just 30secs of browsing). There are a lot of technically competent people out there who have cut their teeth on hacking code for satellite TV for example who could easily adapt their skills.
I think that you may have misunderstood one of my earlier posts. Hacking the ECU code (and modifying as needed) for example,could make it possible for the ECU to work with either a generic or specific coded part without the need for 'dealer coding'. Suddenly the need for dealer visits goes away when all the code is available for free download on the internet. Maybe it will take a little time, but who would have predicted 10 years ago what market stalls can now do with mobile phones!
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pmh (was peter)
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Maybe you're right PMH, and ECU hacking will do to main-dealers what MP3s did to the record industry. We can only hope! Certainly a brighter picture than jase1 and Screwloose are painting! Rather than mechanics, the indie garage of the future will employ a parts-fitter and a computer-programmer. (Not far into the future may I add).
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Greg
Component ID chips aren't security coded so I can't see hacking being needed. [Security codes are only for fitting new ECUs.] The ID code simply tells all the computers on the network that a particular component is there and - most importantly - it's particular characteristics.
What's to hack? If you replace it; the new one still needs adapting-in or it won't work. Whether a hacker does it, or a dealer, doesn't make that much difference.
You can't seriously mean hack in to all the computers on a network and get them to disregard all ancilliaries - trying to "up-chip" existing engine ECUs causes enough mayhem without trying it on whole, already fragile, networks.
As to programmers in garages - where are they now? Why would they want to work in those conditions?
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It's a lot of speculation. OK, maybe "hacking" was the wrong term to use, as i'm not talking about actually breaking into the ECU system, merely using non-manufacturer-standard computer equipment to talk to it and reconfigure it as components are changed. Surely as time goes on, such software will become available far more economically than you fear (i.e. without purchasing each manufacturer's separate system). I can't see cars turning into throw-away items, especially with all this "carbon-footprint" nonsense we're currently being fed. Whatever obstacle a manufacturer puts up, someone will be there finding a way around it, and I'm sure this will be no exception in the end.
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Greg
I think you are being overly optimistic. I use Linux every day to do my work and have done for several years. I think it is superior to other systems precisely because it is open source and easier to use. But one of the great barriers to widespread adoption of Linux is the way device manufacturers release information about their hardware. Many are now very open about this. HP, for example, provides an excellent set of drivers and utilities that ships with most Linux distros and makes HP printers and scanners plug and play. Similarly Brother provides high quality open source drivers for its printers and scanners. Generic hardware also works well to the point where the vast majority of devices are plugged in and just work.
But there are still issues with, for example, ATI's video cards. There are open source, reverse engineered drivers, but they don't work well and the reason is that ATI won't release the specs for the device. Dell is now pressuring ATI to improve it's Linux support, but the community of hackers hasn't been able to do a good job with ATI cards and as a result NVIdia, which does provide excellent (closed source) Linux drivers to augment the excellent but less capapale open source ones, is cleaning up.
How likely do you think it is that Mercedes will release the specs of its controllers to the point where Joe hacker can work them out? And if Joe hacker was successful without Mercedes' specs, would you trust your life to his code?
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> But there are still issues with, for example, ATI's video cards.
Reason here is that is because 1/ video card drivers are hideously complex 2/ATi cant write drivers for Windows let alone linux!
The point here is, that you wont need vast armies of computer programers at garages, the secret is offsite support. All the garage needs is an adsl line, a laptop/terminal and a contract with a third party suport organisation.
"ring ring - just replaced the turbo brake modulator pulser"
"ok plug in your terminal to the diag socket and I will configure it into the car systems"
Monthly bill, probably even to include the rental of kit.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Reason here is that is because 1/ video card drivers are hideously complex 2/ATi cant write drivers for Windows let alone linux!
Well, that supports my argument really. But I expect this will work more like the DRM in Vista which doesn't allow you to play HD and Blueray DVD content at full quality unless all the approved components are in place. I think you're right about the third-party organisation, but of course that will be controlled by the manufacturer. I don't necessarily disagree with this as an idea. Macs work so well precisely because Apple has total control of the basic hardware and builds the software around it. Cars are not unlike that.
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I also use Linux (am using it right now), and I can't fault it. OK, I use the user-friendly Ubuntu distro, but everything just slotted into place, and my SiS video drivers were included with the distro. I know just how powerful Linux is compared to the dumbed-down mainstream alternative, and that's exactly the reason we can be optimistic about the future of repairing - the sky's the limit. Maybe TVM is right - maybe some entrepreneur will set up some sort of automotive programming business and hire out their services via the internet to independent garages.
Yes, the skills/technologies have advanced considerably in the past 20 years - gone are the days of adjusting the fuel/air mixture with a screwdriver. Cars are currently being "tuned" by blokes with laptops - advancing this to require computer setup of each individual sensor/component is just the next step away from traditional tinkering.
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Greg
We are on the same wavelength here. SL sees it from an existing motor repair history perspective. The use of the word hacking maybe unfortunate in that it appears to mean different things to people with different backgrounds.
SL look at the ' coded in' scenario that you describe and compare it with what happens when you connect a printer to a computer. 25 years ago configuring a computer to run a new printer with existing software could be a nightmare to get it to use all of its available facilities. There was little information available. ( I even remember rewriting machine code to get a Canon printer to work!). Today in the plug and play enviroment you connect it, if the drivers are not locally available, the installation searches out drivers on line around the world and generally installs appropriately. No expensive dealer intervention. If and when it doesnt work, you can even search for work arounds that other people have used.
Just imagine your xxxxx (substitute Car for Computer) going on line (WIFI enabled?) and downloading new code on the fly overnight to overcome recently discovered security/performance flaws when you return home and park! Ok a potential nightmare when some irk at the traffic lights decides to have some fun baiting an adjacent car - and hacks it to stop it turning left or limits the radio volume..... you can run riot with imagination here! But there again the police could remotely stop a suspect vehicle, ok far fetched but I predict it is a case of when not if.
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pmh (was peter)
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