My company car is currently up for renewal soon and I'm thinking about taking the money instead as the car is purely a perk and I dont need it for business. I've really enjoyed the 120d and will be v sorry to see it go - in fact I might yield to temptation and get another, or perhaps hold out until the 123d comes out. (PS I'm not really interested in opinions on the 1 series, after 3 years I know what I need to !!)
However I'm quite keen to improve the old cashflow and am toying with spending upto 5k on a 5 door Impreza Turbo. I'm aware fuel consumption will be poor relatively but I''m interested in your opinions as to the pro and cons. I confess I've never driven one, but the general concensus seems to be that they are basic inside but a are a hoot when on the move.
A quick scan on autotrader says there are plenty about but many seem to be 'molested' 260/280/300 bhp etc. (What is the standard power output ?
I do about 14k miles a year, so at this sort of age am I buying myself trouble or could I have the best of both worlds ?
Thanks P
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didnt know anyone still did cars as a perk - i didnt think with all the tax they were much of a perk!
aprilia is the chap on these and i know he often suggests the non-turbo as being a good car in itself, without the high costs of the turbo.
I must admit i have had the same thoughts myself, but got concerned about the repair costs - could escalate and the running costs seem high on these, not just the petrol, but tyres, servicing etc.(im sure it was discussed in a seperate thread recently). Your Mileage will obviously be the big factor.
And havent they changed the 120d now, with more power and a stop-start engine? :)
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www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=53015&...e
For mine and others thoughts
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I read often, only post occasionally
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well-looked after and carefully driven turbo Impreza can be a good buy at £5k. Unfortunately there are very few of those about - so you are more likely to end up with something that's been hard-driven and feeling its miles. The engines last well, but are quite highly stressed, so if something does get out of line (usually main bearings) then it self-destructs in a big way. Turbos can also go pop and the bills can be huge. Overall then, I think a £5k turbo Impreza CAN be a good buy, but represents a high risk. Factor in relatively poor fuel consumption (esp if you use the performance) and high insurance and it starts to look a bit ugly at your 14k a year mileage. Turbo lag was bad on models up to the 'blobeye' (2003) and is better from then on, but its only the latest 2.5 litre Hawkeye turbos (2006-) that have fly-by-wire and good low-speed response. The earlier ones are a bit 'all or nothing' when pulling out onto a roundabout, for example, and I think that's also why the clutches don't last long.
Personally I would consider paying more and getting a lowish mileage one-owner vehicle that's been used as a second car, but your budget may not be up to that.
Alternatively consider the non-turbo Impreza. These are often overlooked, but cost half as much to insure and are essentially the same chassis. Models to 2005 had only a 125bhp engine, which is not fast, but not stupidly slow either. They are usually bought by 'sensible types' who are not as interested in out and out performance. With the introduction of the 'hawkeye' model in late 2005 the 160bhp 2.0 DOHC non-turbo engine was introduced, which is a really good motor and puts the car well into 'warm hatch' territory and is great fun to drive. Sure, its not as quick as a turbo, but the rest of the car is essentially the same and the running gear is tough. Handling is great on either the latest turbo or non-turbo. I have done some suspension mods on a few of these Hawkeyes. You don't need to lower or change dampers - just appropriate Whiteline ARB's back and front - adjust them right and tweak the tyre pressures. Cost is about £270 in parts, plus an hour's labour - I can post part numbers if anyone interested. You then have a beatifully safe and neutral car with a trace of understeer at the absolute limit. Comfortable ride and flat cornering. Makes an outstanding B-road car that easily outshines any of the little nose-heavy Diesels that some folks rave about (e.g. Fabia vrs). Secondhand early 2006 Hawkeyes are quite cheap now - a non-turbo saloon can probably be had for c.£9k (turbo about £2k more) - add in £300 for suspension mods and you have one of the best value and most reliable fun-to-drive cars out there.
One thing to note is that turbo Imprezas registered from March 2006 will be Band G road tax. This is £400/year from next year and sure to rise - so something to take into account. I reckon this will seriously affect the used value of '06-on reg. turbo Impreza in the future. Non-turbo models are Band F.
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>>I've really enjoyed the 120d and will be v sorry to see it go - in fact I might yield to temptation and get another, or perhaps hold out until the 123d comes out. (PS I'm not really interested in opinions on the 1 series, after 3 years I know what I need to !!)>>
May I have the temerity to suggest a 130i based on you lowish mileage.
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Another successful attempt to make the 2 litre Impreza mouthwatering to the 'reasonable man', Aprilia.
One question though: what are ARBs? Sorry to be so ignorant.
And while I am about it, another: can that model be chipped and is it worth it?
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Another successful attempt to make the 2 litre Impreza mouthwatering to the 'reasonable man' Aprilia.
I don't sell them, honestly! In fact, ironically, I have never owned a Subaru, but I have driven them quite a bit and also prepared a few for the track and rebuilt a couple of engines in the past. The non-turbo is very much overshadowed by the WRX in the UK and that's a pity because the later model is a very good 'daily driver' car in its own right. They are popular in Australia and also Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Scandinavia where they're rated very highly on account of the grip and handling on poor road surfaces and general durability. Apparently with the new 2008 Impreza, Subaru are going to try to put the emphasis onto the non-turbo models in the UK - probably so that the brand association (which is currently high-cost, niche-market rally-replica) changes back to being more mainstream. Unfortunately the 2008 Impreza looks a bit like the offspring of a 1-series and a Mazda 3, so I'm not sure how well it will sell!
One question though: what are ARBs? Sorry to be so ignorant.
ARB = anti-roll bar. Also known as 'swaybars' in the US and AUS. A stock Impreza handles pretty well, but by like any AWD car it will tend to understeer when pushed and Subaru have kept the rear roll stiffness fairly low to make the car idiot proof. Judicious use of stiffer ARB's back and front can trim out the understeer (but allow some at the limit) to give a car which corners flat and handles in a balanced and neutral fashion. I have always gone for an adjustable rear bar so that the owner can set it for their own preference (one persons 'understeer' is another's neutral). Tyre pressures can be used for fine tuning and a proper 3D 4-wheel alignment can bring about surprising improvements on its own.And while I am about it another: can that model be chipped and is it worth it?
Yes, you can take the 160bhp to 180bhp. In Japan the same non-turbo engine gets to 200bhp, but then they can map for 100 octane. Not really worth it though; if you are desperate for the power then get a turbo model.
Personally I like sweet-handling cars, irrespective of 0-60 time or top speed. Something like an older MX-5 or Smart Roadster can be great fun - not that fast but nice to drive on the rural roads in my part of the world and relatively cheap to run. I have a Skyline GTR with some serious power and SuperHICAS 4WS - a good prod on the throttle will near enough snap your head off your shoulders - but it can be frustrating to drive because its so rare that I can actually get to use the power and at lower speeds it can be boring because it does all the work for you - totally flatters the driver.
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Thanks Aprilia. Of course I know what anti-roll bars are, just didn't recognise the acronym, dumb moment.
Daughter's new bf has an impeccable, imported, chipped Skyline. I haven't been in it yet, but I hope and pray he doesn't let her drive it... seems a sensible chap so fingers crossed... :o)
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Another successful attempt to make the 2 litre Impreza mouthwatering to the 'reasonable man', Aprilia.
He's convinced me. If only Subaru would do something about the fact that the estates are child scaringly ugly.
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Soupytwist !
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Thanks to all for the replies - particually Aprillia - thats exactly what I was looking for. I think that you have confirmed what I really suspected and ultimately the relatively low initial outlay is a reflection of the potential costs during ownership. Somehow whilst I'm sure you are correct about the non-turbo, it somehow doesnt have the same attraction.
Cheddar yes a 130i would be great if money was no object, but comparatively it is almost the worst possible scenario with a higher P11d price, higher emmissions therefore a higher tax cost, along with higher running and lease costs..... pity though :-)
Back to the drawing board !
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I've owned a 5 door Impreza of the vintage you are talking about. I don't like to be seen to be disagreeing with Aprilla but I'm going to.
A non-turbo Impreza is pointless unless you live in the back of beyond. Running costs really aren't that different. 5mpg and slightly lower insurance are peanuts compared to the real costs of depreciation. I think we can discount them then.
Onto the engines the big end failures weren't really that common-at least on UK cars. Japanese cars that weren't mapped for 98 ron fuel do go bang however. The real weakpoints of these cars is the drivetrain. The gearbox especially which is prone to failure from launches, chipping and general abuse.
If I was you I'd join a site like scoobynet then look on the for sale pages and find a car that's had items like the clutch recently replaced and that hasn't be too chavved up. You can then do a search on that members previous posts and find out what kind of life your car is likely to have had and what problems they've had with it. 5K should get you a car good for another 40k trouble free miles.
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If you like the 120d, might buying it from the leasing company be an option? If you don't actually use it for business, you're unlikely to be under the five-year rule that sometimes applies - and even if you are, that's still two years away.
Price is the thing, of course, and the leasing company I used to deal with had a reputation among my colleagues for asking unrealistic prices for end-of-lease cars. So imagine my surprise when I left that job and they offered me my two-year-old, £21,000 Volvo for about £3,000 less than I'd have had to pay for a comparable approved one from a Volvo dealer. I've been well pleased with it.
Might be worth looking up a value and putting that to the leasing company, rather than asking them to name a price. Others here can probably advise on how best to calculate that, based on what the company's costs will be in disposing of the car if you don't buy it.
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As OH say, get over to Scoobynet
bbs.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general/index2.html
£5K is a potential minefield for an Impreza, but there are good ones around - it might take a bit of time to find one!
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As OH say get over to Scoobynet bbs.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general/index2.html £5K is a potential minefield for an Impreza but there are good ones around - it might take a bit of time to find one!
A private buy off Scoobynet is the last place to look for an Impreza. Last time I looked at the posts on there it was full of real chav-types talking about 'taking' Civic Type-R's and grumbling that they'd been nicked for doing 110mph. You're almost guaranteed to buy grief.
At £5k+ buy from a trader who will give you some back up if things go wrong - there are some Sub specialists about who might be worth approaching (e.g. API in Warwks). And get the car inspected.
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Again I don't agree. I was once an active member of that site and there were a high proportion of mature enthusiast owners who had mollycoddled their cars with 3K mile oil changes and lavished the type of care and attention on their cars that their wives could only dream of.
The point is that with the longstanding members you can trace the history of their cars almost from day one. Not only that you can read their other posts and find out what kind of people they are.
Also worth trying is the SIDC (Subaru Impreza Driver Club) where you can do similar.
Of course then you could go for an inspection on top of your own research. Far better than buying fro m a dealer where you have no idea what happened before he tarted it up for retail.
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A private buy off Scoobynet is the last place to look for an Impreza.
Fair comment - I was pointing the OP towards the discussion pages not the for sale area! If you sort through the chaff there is some informed comment on the perils of older Subaru purchases.
Aprilia - hijacking this thread a bit - can you do the same ARB tweaking, that you mention higher up, on the current shape Legacy?
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A non-turbo Impreza is pointless unless you live in the back of beyond.
Why is it 'pointless' - its a car, a means of transport. Given that you can now buy 2.0's new for less than the cost of a basic Focus its a tremendous bargain. I'd sooner have one of them that any of the 'eurobox' traffic-jammers.
>>Running costsreally aren't that different. 5mpg and slightly lower insurance are peanuts compared to the real costs of depreciation. I think we can discount them then.
For many drivers the turbo will cost double the non-turbo to insure. Some companies will not insure turbo's for under-25 or under-30's and many will want a tracker fitting. If we are talking about late models then mpg difference will be more than 5mpg. I reckon that for the average owner you could be talking in terms of an extra £60-80 month to run the turbo. Nothing wrong with that, but you need to understand what you are getting into - make full use of the turbo on a 2.5WRX and you're looking at 19-20mpg - I know because I've done it. I think a lot of people buy a turbo Impreza and then get a shock when they discover the running costs. I really like the cars, but I'm just trying to make people aware of the pitfalls. I am not at all knocking the turbo models, they are great. I am presenting the non-turbo as a good alternative to other small cars of similar size and at similar cost. The turbo is definitely a notch up in terms of running costs.
Onto the engines the big end failures weren't really that common-at least on UK cars. Japanese cars that weren't mapped for 98 ron fuel do go bang however. The real weakpoints of these cars is the drivetrain. The gearbox especially which is prone to failure from launches chipping and general abuse.
I have prepped these cars for the track, including a couple of £6k engine rebuilds and 6-sp gearbox rebuilds - this is in addition to working on a good number of road cars, so I know the oily bits on these backwards forwards and sideways. They are certainly tough and an unmodded road car should be pretty reliable, but major engine failure does happen from time to time on UK cars - I wouldn't say it was 'common' but there is that risk on a turbo car that's been hard driven from cold and maybe skipped a service. The crank is well-supported on the Boxer, but if there is big end wear at the back end then it starts to get out of line and everything gets bent out of shape pretty quick. Other critical items are regular coolant changes using OEM spec coolant (infrequent changes can promote HGF) and carefull check of the timing belt tensioner when the belt is changed - ideally replace it (they are about £120).
Clutch and general drivetrain wear is a problem on the turbo's - I think that's mainly because there is not a lot there when the engine is off-boost - so for a smart getaway at a junction or roundabout, many drivers will give the engine some revs from standstill (e.g. 3000rpm) and that takes its toll on the drivetrain.If I was you I'd join a site like scoobynet then look on the for sale pages and find a car that's had items like the clutch recently replaced and that hasn't be too chavved up. You can then do a search on that members previous posts and find out what kind of life your car is likely to have had and what problems they've had with it. 5K should get you a car good for another 40k trouble free miles.
A private buy of Scoobynet would be real Russian Roulette. Go to an established trader and buy with SOGA protection. Have the car inspected prior to purchase and bear in mind that in some cases these cars were a bit too fast for their past owners, so keep a look out for evidence of crash repair, there's a lot about.
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The non turbo Impreza is pointless because unless you require 4wd a Mondeo or Focus for example are better cars in almost everyway. The non-turbo Impreza is not a sporty drive, it has light steering, power sapping AWD, terrible fuel economy and cost more to insure like for like. If you want an Impreza just cut to the chase and by a proper one. Other than that settle for a car that will do a better and cheaper job 99% of the time as I suggested.
You seemed to suggest engine failures were the real weak point of these cars. It isn't, the real problem is gearbox and clutch. Routine servicing is of course something you'd look out for, who on earth would buy a car like this without evidence of specialist attention and regular (over schedule is better) fluid changes.
Neither do I agree a private buy from somewhere like scoobynet is 'Russian Roulette'. Where else can you check out the previous owners driving and lifestyle habits documented since they've owned the car? Backed up with an inspection I can't see how buying one from a forecourt with a more than likely worthless warranty is any better. I've seen some cracking one owner cars on scoobynet where you could spend hours researching exactly how the car had been treated and if it's owner was the type of person likely to have spent significant time in McDonald's car park.
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The non turbo Impreza is pointless because unless you require 4wd a Mondeo or Focus for example are better cars in almost everyway. The non-turbo Impreza is not a sporty drive it has light steering power sapping AWD terrible fuel economy and cost more to insure like for like. If you want an Impreza just cut to the chase and by a proper one. Other than that settle for a car that will do a better and cheaper job 99% of the time as I suggested.
Cobblers (polite). I don't sell or own a Subaru, but I've spent a good fews years setting them up for the track and undertaking suspension work on them. The 160bhp non-turbo performs much as any other 160bhp car in terms of accleration (0-60 in 8.5s) - however once you hit the curves a well set up car will leave pretty much anything of equalivalent power and size well behind. The Focus, good as it is, would end up in a hedge! The suspension and steering on the latest vintage is the same as on the turbo WRX apart from the latest WRX 4-door has alloy lower arm [5-door has steel]. Not sure where you get the 'light steering' idea from - I think you may be harking back to the pre-2000 'phase 1' cars. The wheels are 16" rather than 17" on the WRX - but an easy upgrade if you want, although I wouldn't bother because it makes little difference to the handling and increases noise levels.
Anyway, that's my last word on the matter.
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Aprilia - hijacking this thread a bit - can you do the same ARB tweaking that you mention higher up on the current shape Legacy?
Yes you can. I've done it. Cost-wise its about the same. Pretty easy to do and probably the best value for money modification you can do to improve the drive in a Leggy. Check with your insurance co. first though, because some may want to load the premium unrealistically. I did an Impreza once and then the driver found out his insurance co. wanted another £200 on the premium (he was already paying about £1k!!) so I had to take it all off again for him!
I can post part no's and cheapest supplier detaills if you want.
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>>Pretty easy to do and probably the best value for money modification you can do to improve >>the drive in a Leggy. I can post part no's and cheapest supplier detaills if you want.
If you can post the part numbers/suppliers info that would be appreciated. 2005 Leggy 2.5 Tourer.
Apologies to Pezzer for the thread hijack!!
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If you can post the part numbers/suppliers info that would be appreciated. 2005 Leggy 2.5 Tourer.
OK, just about to go out now, but will post details later.
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WDB, spot on ! Have requested a quote although they cant provide it until 28 days before lease expiry, which isnt particually helpful. However my expectation is that the price will be unrealistic and they are non-negotiable. Plus I'm not convinced I want to buy a car which didnt have an oil change until 18k and 37k miles (and they were early).
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I've drivn a couple of Turbos and a non turbo and very carefully researched buying a turbo. My cousin had one for two years so I also checked with him.
IMO servicing and general upkeep costs are frightening: I'm talking at least £1k pa for 12k miles a year PLUS... Imo that's much much higher than BMW 3 series..
I found a couple of cars with clutch judder: abuse leads to flywheel wear I believe and that's more expense.
Frankly IF I were buying privately I would want at least £1k discount from nromal price to cover the risk of having no warranty. Just because the prior owner has looked after it well does NOT mean it will be trouble free... why is he/she selling?
The trouble is , the looks make most ugly cars look handsome by comparison...
madf
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I found a couple of cars with clutch judder: abuse leads to flywheel wear I believe and that's more expense.
Yes, clutch/flywheel problems have been an issue on all Subaru models a few years back. They even flirted with dual mass flywheels on Legacies, but most were changed back to standard flywheels under warranty after troubles arose.
The AWD traction imposes a lot of additional load and heating on the clutch. The recommendation is to replace the clutch and flywheel as a set. Some don't judder but make a 'chirp'. We stripped one down and found nothing at all wrong with it, so put a new centre plate in it. After a couple of weeks it started chirping again so we left it and it carried on like that for a year without a problem until the owner sold it.
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