There are those who will pour cold water on all reliability statistics.
However, I gather from those that know about such things, that ADAC breakdown statistics are more reliable than most. And what is interesting about ADAC statistics is that the Renault figures have improved greatly in the past few years.
The statistics indicate that 2002 Renault were right at the bottom of the heap. (This is true whether one looks at results for 2003, 2004, 2005, or 2006) But with each succeeding year, Renault vehicles seem to do better. And the results for 2006 show Renaults apparently doing as well or better than Toyotas or Hondas.
The following results (indicating number of breakdowns per 1000 vehicles) are for cars sold in 2004, 2005, and 2006, and are taken from the 2006 results. www.adac.de/images/Pannenstatistik2006_tcm8-179730...f
2004 2005 2006
Renault Clio 10.0 4.3 2.1
Renault Twingo 6.7 4.3 2.6
Toyota Yaris 6.9 6.1 7.5
Honda Jazz 7.8 5.5 3.4
2004 2005 2006
Renault Megane 11.1 5.1 4.4
Renault Scenic 17.9 6.0 2.5
Toyota Corolla 7.8 6.2 8.0
Honda Civic 8.9 8.5 8.1
2004 2005 2006
Renault Laguna 19.0 7.6 4.7
Toyota Avensis 9.2 8.4 7.1
Has Renault really turned the corner?
|
Perhaps it's the right hand drive build Renault models that are causing the problems......:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
|
|
It does seem to be looking more promising for Renault. Perhaps the Nissan link beginning to pay off. The acid test will be how the 2006 cars are standing up in 2-3 years time.
|
Would have to agree -- and it is not jusst ADAC who are saying it.
At the end of the day, as mentioned on the Nissan thread, Renault merged with a Nissan that was on the verge of bankruptcy in the early 2000s. This had a number of effects:
1) They had to merge together two different technology bases.
2) Nissan had begun themselves to cut corners to save money.
3) Renault's entrenched reliability problems with certain technologies such as electronics and autoboxes etc.
With hindsight, it was inevitable that these factors taken together would have a detrimental effect on the quality of the vehicles by both manufacturers; Nissan became no better than average, and Renault slipped from mid-table relative respectability to real monsters.
Eventually though the talent present at both companies (Renault for design, Nissan for engineering) had to start bearing fruit, and I think that is what we are starting to see here. You take a company, stung by criticism of producing very poor product, when they finally start to do something about it the initial resulting products will be that little bit over-engineered.
So, it could well turn out to be the case that some of the newer Renaults and Nissans (Clio, Modus, Note, Qashqai etc) are some of the best-engineered cars of their generation.
It must be said as well that the Clio and Modus are based on the Nissan B platform :)
|
|
|
It does seem to be looking more promising for Renault. Perhaps the Nissan link beginning to pay off. >>
What a fascinating comment, and there was me thinking that Nissans had turned the corner and started to have a modicum of character since Renault got involved, strange how polarised views can be.
|
What a fascinating comment and there was me thinking that Nissans had turned the corner and started to have a modicum of character since Renault got involved strange how polarised views can be.
LOL! Character? Nissan have been churning out 'character' for a good many years. Remember the old Datsun 240Z? Not a bad motor in its time and very 'characterful'. My Skyline GTR has 'character' - I can tell you! Can't think of any Renault that could provide a similar driving experience!
Renaults, on the other hand, are very 'character building'. I was unfortunate enough to end up repairing an Espace V6 for my wife's friend - my God that was 'character building'!. After many hours I finally tracked the fault to **internal corrosion** of the very flimsy wires going to the crank sensor - very fiendish, those French. That left me with a couple of hours to spare (which I needed) to change the spark plugs. Quicker to change a turbo on an Impreza than change the plugs on an Espace! Renault have basically been turning out rubbish for the last two decades - I really hope they have learned something about engineering from Nissan and start making good cars instead of 'style statements'.
|
>> LOL! Character? Nissan have been churning out 'character' for a good many years. Remember the old Datsun 240Z? Not a bad motor in its time and very 'characterful'. My Skyline GTR has 'character' - I can tell you! >>
And what % of Nissan production do those to account for 0.0000what? And one of them is 30+ years old.
Early Primeras had a good chassis for their time though recent Nissans (with few niche exceptions) have ben dull as ditch water, Micra, Almera zzzzzzzzzzzzzz - sorry dozed off there -, Primera etc where as Clios, Twingos, Scenics, Meganes etc have been chic and characterful.
Renault have basically been turning out rubbish for the last two decades >>
That is really rather unreasnonable Aprillia, our Clio has been fantastic, drives as new, but for a few car park dings it is almost as new, oh so much better that a slightly newer and rather troublesome Yaris we know of and a rust riddled Polo of the same age.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You have to be careful with statistics from breakdowns. I'm not sure [bad German translation on Babel-fish] as to the exact basis of these stats; but a large chunk of breakdowns are not wholly the fault of the car.
Things like lock-outs; out of petrol; punctures etc. can muddy the statistics to a fair degree. Family and women's cars may suffer very different types of breakdown calls from a company reps' car.
Are they really saying that 78% of '01 Kangoos registered [with them?] broke down last year?
|
Hmmm. Like the time I had to get the AA out because I was trying to get the water jets unblocked, left the door open for some stupid reason and had clicked over the interior lock without thinking, locking the keys in the ignition.
One vote for the "Hyundai = carp" pile there potentially, even though it was my own stupid fault. Would ADAC have counted that?
|
One vote for the "Hyundai = carp" pile there potentially even though it was my own stupid fault. Would ADAC have counted that?
Don't know - it says 'breakdown help' - so yes, it might count. But these eventualities would affect more or less all brands equally I think.
Incidentally, 2001/02 5-series and E-Class come out rather badly, don't they?
|
|
|
|
Are they really saying that 78% of '01 Kangoos registered [with them?] broke down last year?
No, its 78 per THOUSAND Kangoos.
|
It shouldn't be that hard to challenge the Japanese in this respect, as the European factories are certainly not building faultless products. Better than average perhaps, but a huge step down in quality from what the Japanese factories were turning out 15-20 years ago. That said, another reason the Japanese stand out is that they tend to react well to problems, being unafraid to issue recalls and also to fix problems outside warranty on occasion.
If Yaris bonnets were flying open (Clio-style) by the hundred, or significant numbers of Civics were combusting (307-style IIRC), I suspect a recall would be issued and the problem would be addressed properly.
|
If Yaris bonnets were flying open (Clio-style) by the hundred >>
To repeat what I have just said on another thread:
It is certainly not hundreds (VOSA not issued a recall and Renault have offered to inspect FOC).
We have a friend that has a 2000 Yaris, all sorts of problems, where as our similar age/mileage Clio has been brilliant.
|
It is certainly not hundreds (VOSA not issued a recall and Renault have offered to inspect FOC).
To repeat my justification for my numbers - What Car quote 1000+ UK owners of Gen 2 Clios suffering this.
|
I don't know about more reliable than the Japanese, but we've had our Grand Scenic for just over a month now, and I'm impressed with the way it's screwed together. It's certainly no worse than the Fords, Vauxhalls and VW's I've owned over the years. It has one intermittent squeak from the front sunblind on the panoramic roof, and you can feel the chassis flex a bit over a rutted track that leads up to a mate's house (presumably due to a long wheelbase, lots of glass and a big sunroof) but other than that, it wears it's 38,000 miles superbly. Panel alignment is perfect, paint finish is even and glossy, and everything still works as it should. The only minor glitch has been a "Check airbag" message on the computer when I fired it up one morning, which cleared itself a minute or two later, and hasn't reoccurred.
Obviously, a month is too short to comment on reliability, but compared to older Renaults I've driven, some of which felt worn out and had major faults at 20,000 miles, it's a big step up. The service history indicates two minor faults only in its life so far.
Of course, it's no BMW quality-wise, but then a BMW of this size with this kit on would cost twice as much. For a sub-£20k car (new), it's just fine.
Cheers
DP
|
I have hired quantities of Grand Scenics and before that Scenics. Recently I hired a Grand Scenic diesel 1.5 from Lisbon airport. I mostly drove the car pretty full with family members. I was thrilled when I managed to get a Grand Scenic from the hire company.I definitely feel the quality has been on the rise over the years. This one had better interior quality than one I had last year in France.I love driving them. I think they are so well designed and still look lovely.Much better looking than the other compact MPVs.
My own car is a 1.9 110 bhp Seat Toledo which I bought towards the end of 1999. It was assembled in Belgium by VW as were all the Toledos which were sold in England at that time. I have never had such a wonderful car.Incredibly reliable. It has now done 141,000 miles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
The German ADAC statisitcs are based on calls to breakdown services which are part of the network. So running out of fuel or getting a puncture 'count' for the same as a vehicle being towed in for its third engine failure in 20000 km. The statisitcs mean something but are not the complete picture regarding mechanical reliability.
|
|
I would imagine that ADAC would categorize calls so a puncture or running out of fuel would not appear alongside engine failure.
|
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=24...6
says it more clealry and succintly than any post above imo
madf
|
|
The ADAC is little more sophisticated than to put punctures in with engine failures in fact the service from the ADAC makes anything available in the UK look like noddy's garage in toytown.
|
|
1/4 of all problems shown in this survey were dead batteries.
|
1/4 of all problems shown in this survey were dead batteries.
Where did that info come from?
If that is true, then this survey is completely discredited.
|
>> 1/4 of all problems shown in this survey were dead batteries. Where did that info come from? If that is true then this survey is completely discredited.
Why discredited, IF around 1/4 of all problems reported are batery related then it is in line.
|
It's discredited, because if specifically 1/4 of the figures are related to dead batteries, then another 1/4 will be related to bad coils due to incorrect servicing etc etc. Problems like that are far more common than a "real" breakdown involving something going bang.
It dilutes the statistics, and means that with already low results (4 in 1000 for some cars), the margin for error in some cases is huge.
|
I still think the ADAC survey is the most trustworthy out there (but, like all surveys, to be used as a guide, not gospel!) because the ADAC tell us how the figures are calculated.
So yes, flat batteries and running out of fuel are included, but at least you know. And bear in mind that running out of fuel is a significant breakdown to German buyers - its illegal to run out of fuel on the Autobahn! For example, experience tells me that in my 2001 MY Scenic, when the fuel light comes on, I'd better stop at the very next garage I meet. Worth knowing if I was buying one to pound the Autobahns in...
Same goes for their tyre test, which I read yesterday. 1200 tyres were bought from retail suppliers (so no skewed sample) and the full details of the test programme provided. Result: I'm far more confident of the ADAC's recommendation of Pirelli P3000s for the Punto's next change than I would be of any "best buy" rating from the UK's weekly motor press.
|
|
|
As I said on another thread, look at how highly placed the German cars are - would that currently be the case in this country? The best information on reliability is word of mouth, not numbers which can easily be "massaged" to allow some cars to do better than others. I wouldn't buy a modern Renault, I wouldn't buy a modern Peugeot either. All of the far-eastern marques I'd buy, except Nissan now that Renault run the shop.
No amount of statistics will change that. If, however, a few of my mates buy these cars and have no problems with them, I'd maybe change my point of view. However recent experience of Renaults makes them a no-no, and I've heard hundreds of stories about much poorer quality in Peugeots now. I used to regard Fiats as dirt, but they're really making progress now, not least with their diesel multijet unit.
The biggest intrinsic flaw in this data is that a flat tyre counts just the same as cambelt failure, even though the severity, cost, implications etc are far removed.
|
|
|
|
|
>> 1/4 of all problems shown in this survey were dead batteries. Where did that info come from?
jurnalo.com/jurnalo/storyPage.do?story_id=32771
|
|
Probably a bit optimistic to claim they're as good as the Japanese cars but they're certainly on the up. Modus is getting some good reliability reports. Time will tell though and they've got to get the New Laguna right from day one.
|
I read an article associated with J D Power that agreed with the findings from ADAC and they believed the cause was the fact that non-Japanese brands were getting very good at inspecting quality into the product during manufacture.
This made for much imrpoved reliability during the first couple of years of the cars life.
From year 3 to 4 onwards though it was a different story - thse cars that had quality built and designed in continue to give reliable service.
Unlike those that had it inspected in.
I am still trying to work out if that can be correct.
|
|
|
|
|
|
The answer, I think, is that Japanese brands are probably no better than any others when they are made in OgoPogo land, especially if by unionised "workers". When a car is actually made in Japan I will still bet on it. And on Koreans, nowadays.
I await Chinese MGs with interest!
|
I with the poster above about reliability after 3-5 years.
It is a known fact that Peugeot and Citroen and I suspect Renault used to skimp on the electrical connectors and the designs..
and compare the aftersales service from the AVERAGE Toyota dealer and a Citroen one.
Which car do you want when in 5 years you have an intermittent fault which is driving you nuts.?
After all many dealers can't solve faults on new cars..
Anyone fancy the electrical system of a Peugeot with coded electroninics and multibus electrics that no-one understands new and which is suffering from damp/corrosion or bad maintenance (damaged connectors when replaced etc) - and is now no longer a current model?
As many other threads witter on about the complexities of modern cars and yearn for the simplicity (and rust!) of a W124 Mercedes or whatever :-)))))) why condemn yourself to problems by buying a car whose maker and dealer network is questionable technically.
Of course if you only buy new cars every two years then why care: look at Citroen depreciation!
Imo anyone who buys a secondhand French designed and built car of any age since 2000 or any Mercedes from 1997-2004 and expects to keep it for years and have a trouble free existence is gambling AGAINST the odds.
(Note my careful choice of phrase: I am only talking probabilities after all but look at Renault's recent experiences with diesel engines and turbos and self destruction after 80-90k miles...
If Car Mechanics is scathing about Meganne quality, there usually is a very good reason (in the Meganne's case a lot of them!)
madf
|
If one mentions Mercedes. Mercedes Benz have gone to great lengths to up their quality lately. They have a new boss who jolly well means business.They have gone to enormous trouble over the new C Class. Incredible amount of testing. Apparently the new ones coming in to the Irish Republic will be assembled in Germany.I am personally keen to buy one.
I recently hired a C Class 200 CDI and did almost 1,000 miles in it. Both my wife and I truly loved the car. I drove it in very heavy city driving daily and did long return journeys up and around Northern Ireland.You now get an excellent road going north from Dublin.In the daytime on a week day one can cruise mostly undisturbed at the 120 kph speed limit and maybe more!! Seriously it was so smooth and quiet. It had a much nicer cabin than a C Class I sat in a couple of years ago.
|
I know that the way Toyota in general and the luxury Lexus brand are run is extremely interesting.I spoke in depth to someone who has worked for years in Tokyo.I even pleasurably visited the place myself. I once worked in South Africa for many years.They almost worship Toyota there. They had the advertising slogan there of " Everything keeps going right Toyota". In those days they were telling the truth!!
I really hope that Renault will keep improving. Their famous main desighner who designed the Scenic is quite a genius. The roadholding of the Zaffira and the VW Touran is better; but the incredible flair of his design is still so fresh in my mind. I truly marvel when I see a Scenic in a busy street. Most other designs are so unexciting.I thought the Avantime was so different from anything else.He was prepared to take risks. I like someone like that.Please goodness Renault will make the reliability excellent now that they have help from Nissan.I am certainly a fan and they have my respect.
|
|
My source at Toyota tells me they have been having reliability problems with the (French-built) Yarises. Mainly component failure - a result of cost-cutting? For example the Finnish post office use Yarises, but the brake cables having been seizing in the cold weather.
|
|
|
|
