The forward observation of many drivers is shocking.
On my drive to the station every morning I go over a single lane roundabout which exits onto a two lane road approaching some traffic lights about 400yds further on. This two lane road is arrow straight and slightly downhill, and you can see right the way up to the lights as you exit the roundabout (which itself is sharp, narrow, and forces you down to 20 mph or so).
90% of the time when I pass through there, there are two big dump trucks parked about half way between the roundabout and the lights. The road is quiet at that time of the morning, and they are well over in the nearside lane with hazards on (I presume the drivers go for breakfast in the caff opposite). Yet, every single morning, there's at least one driver who has exited the roundabout in the nearside lane, failed to see the parked trucks until the last minute and is forced to brake sharply, or just as commonly, swerve violently around the trucks regardless of what is alongside them. As the roundabout feeding this is only single lane, roundabout exit speeds are low, and the trucks are clearly visible from the roundabout exit, its carp observation, plain and simple.
I have sympathy for the op's situation, but you just cannot count on people looking where they're going. Early on in her driving career, SWMBO was hit head on (thankfully at about 20mph) by a woman in an oncoming car who, with her head somewhere down in the passenger footwell (looking for a tape, apparently), had strayed over the white line. SWMBO was stationary at the time, and to add insult to injury, this woman turned out to be uninsured!! :-(
It beggars belief, but these idiots are not as uncommon as we all hope.
Cheers
DP
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Ok agreed its a disaster area and no mistake about that. That is one stupid junction in real world use.
The pity is tho that it does not change you from being in the wrong to being in the right.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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So the junction is dangerous, you know it is dangerous. Time to take extra care, I think - rather than pulling out in front of a car that is going hell for leather at you!
I have some sympathy - it's a 'if only she'd seen me and slowed down' situation. But you took a chance, she didn't, and your presence caused an accident.
If you had waited patiently in the side road until you had a proper gap, then you would not have caused the accident is possibly the simplest way to think about it.
Annoying; bad luck.
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Technically you were in the wrong, but as the film shows, anybody who wants to cross the junction this side of Christmas is forced by necessity to do the same.
It's all very well for the HC to say "wait for a gap", but for how long - all day?
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It sounds like you were wrong for sure, but possibly not 100%. However, proving that she had ample time to stop is the hard bit as others have noted.
However, sorry for this, but I have to admit that I cannot abide it when somone pulls out of a side road, and then stops, blocking one lane, waiting for a gap in the other lane. It is incredibly selfish behaviour. On numerous occasions I and lots of people behind me have had to wait ages until some selfish oaf gets out of the way. Basically lots of people are forced to wait to potentially save one person a bit of time. In fact, quite often had the car not pulled out, it would have got out just as quickly. Rant over. I feel better now. Move along now, nothing to see.
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I have no idea if it applies here and pass no judgement, but as a general observation I never cease to be amazed at the dirty dives across traffic to turn right, when in fact turning left gives a short drive to roundabout or other opportunity to turn round and come back on yourself.
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Agree - I know this junction very well and its layout may be due to the relatively small amount of traffic which turns right onto the A224 which is busy much of the time. There is pelican crossing about 50m north of the jcn which gives some break in the traffic heading south but at peak times I'd rather use Sandy Lane and avoid the right turn altogether.
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Incidentally the jcn with Midfield Way about 200m further north along the A224 is usually busier and presents very similar problems to anyone trying to turn right.
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The pedestrian crossing is 91 metres from the junction. It is not a small amount of traffice that turn right there - there is a business park just round the corner, so copme 5:00 - 6:00 there is always a long queue of traffic on Main Road. That's not to mention all the people leaving the Homebase store too....
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The key word I used was 'relatively' i.e relative to the A224. If there was a great deal of traffic turning right there Main Road would grind to a halt and in 20 years of living in the area I've never known that to happen although of course it's far busier at peak times which is why I'd use Sandy Lane.
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>>>It's all very well for the HC to say "wait for a gap", but for how long - all day
You wait as long as you have to. Better 3 minutes late in this world etc.....
Clk Sec
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You wait as long as you have to. Better 3 minutes late in this world etc.....
True. But there are junctions where you would literally wait all day if you applied that rule. What do you do - get out and have a picnic and wait to be arrested for obstructing a road junction?
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"But there are junctions where you would literally wait all day if you applied that rule"
You would turn left and find a way of safely turning around. Turning right needs a gap in both streams of traffic and turning left only needs a gap in one.
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All the cars in the film clip that turned left took a chance on the "gap" being long enough. A dozy driver on the main road could have gone into the back of one, and then claimed he pulled straight out in front. Exactly like the present situation.
Surely the truth is that at a junction like that in order to go anywhere you simply have to force someone to slow, and take a chance that they will?
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Surely the truth is that at a junction like that in order to go anywhere you simply have to force someone to slow and take a chance that they will?
No.
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Also with you Cliff - too many people treat driving as a strict science with set procedures for any given situation. Unfortunately a lot of art is required in adapting your driving to suit the conditions and with the amount of traffic in built up areas going halfway out of junctions can sometimes be the only way of making progress.
Some of the video footage appears to feature suicidal drivers who are driving deiberately in front of fast moving traffic. I've not watched it all, but there appear to be very few times when there is a gap in both directions - the fire engine would probably resort to blues and twos if he stuck to the strict advice and waited for a gap.
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>>>True. But there are junctions where you would literally wait all day if you applied that rule. What do you do - get out and have a picnic and wait to be arrested for obstructing a road junction?
Look again at the film; some waited and some did'nt. Those choosing the safe option did not, as far as I could see, cause an obstruction.
Picnic on a busy suburban junction? might be your cup of tea, it's not mine!
Clk Sec
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I've now watched the whole thing.
Every car which emerged to turn right had to cut across traffic at some point and inconvenience someone - if the first car had waited for a proper gap it would still have been there at the end of filming. Those that waited until nothing was coming from the right still had to cut in front of of vehicles coming from the left.
I like the 300C estate - I'm big, I've waited long enough and I am coming through and Pug 106 drivers seem to have a deathwish! The Getz near the end took two minutes to get out and still had to cut across traffic.
Chaos theory in action! I'd send the video link to the insurance company.
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The video is on a disc waiting to be sent with my forms...
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.. Every car which emerged to turn right had to cut across traffic
one impatient driver jumps the queue - by undertaking the one at the front of thequeue waiting for a gap; by first going left and then cutting in right to jump the queue !
and you can see some near misses as well.
i would not want to hang around too long where the video was filmed from.
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I've seen police cars before that have done the same thing. I might go up there with my video camera and wait!
I'm meeting an accident investigator soon too. I'll be showing him the junction, and hopefully filming him either sitting there for 20 minutes trying to get out, or doing what I, and many many other have to do.
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And i have seen film of a riotus mob killing people.
It still wont make it right or shift the blame. The "everyone does it so its ok" defence, well, it isnt one.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Earlier you said:
...unless you can summon up some witnesses to say the other driver was to blame in some way (ie putting on make up or using a mobile) I have to say you look stuffed.
Surely, if I can prove that not only is it common, but even police officers do the same thing, AND that she was not concentrating on the road ahead, then I must be able to convince them that it was not totally my fault?
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Surely, if I can prove that not only is it common ..
bjh - whether it is a common mistake everyone makes or not is immaterial. you may have made a mistake and may be 100% to blame. you asked "have i got a chance" and most people here think you do not have a chance.
but unless you give it a go, you will have no chance of proving otherwise. so do try and let us know if you succeed.
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Well no, not really. 90% of people speed, but that does not make it legal in the eyes of the law.
You cant prove she was not concentrating on the road. If an accident investigator look at it, and saw there were no skid marks, he would assumed you shot out in front of her and she had no chance to stop.
With no witness to say "yes he was in the road and she accelerated away from the lights for 90 metres and drove in the side of him" you really havent got a leg to stand on. One thing in your favour is that the police have delined to prosecute you for driving without due care. (tho that might happen)
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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It's the eyes of the insurance company I'm interested in, not the law.
The location of the collision should show that I could not have got into the road that far had I just pulled out in front her, and as there were no skid marks accross the road, I can show that I didn't pull out like a maniac.
So, if I can convince the accident investigator that I was (rightly or wrongly) established in that position, this would suggest that there would have been enough time for the girl to see me. The two reasons she wouldn't have made any skid marks in the road would be:
1) She saw me when I was 90 metres up the road and, at some point, took her foot off the accelerator, thereby slowing enough for the road to be clear by the time she went past the junction.
2) She didn't see me at all, and so instead of slowing down gradually (not using the brake), she stopped very quickly by hitting me (again. not using the brake).
Unfortunately for both of us, number 2 was the reason there were no skid marks.
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It's the eyes of the insurance company I'm interested in not the law.
It's them you need to talk to. Opinion here seems to indicate you haven't a leg to stand on.
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2) She didn't see me at all, and so instead of slowing down gradually (not using the brake), she stopped very quickly by hitting me (again. not using the brake).
yes but be honest - How likely is that scenario? She drove for a full 90 metres without seeing you AT ALL and drove into you without applying her brakes AT ALL.
come on now its not is it,.
What is likely however is that she saw you, and she assumed you would be out of the way, and when she realised you were not she applied her brakes but not with sufficient force to stop. This is a far more common happening than you or i would credit. a percentage of people - in panic stop situations - dont hit the brakes hard enough. She may even have been speeding before she hit you. Who knows.
The bald facts however are
1/ that you were where you should not have been, and she hit you.
2/ Its a very poor junction.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Would an ABS-equipped car leave skid marks anyway?
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Not sure, thats a good point. I understand the old bill have some way of seeing where ABS equiped cars start to brake, but I am not sure how. I have seen ( and indeed left after some heavy braking on ABS equiped cars) small black rubber strip marks. Cant say if all cars do that tho.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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The point is that you don't have to do it do you? You can turn left and then come back or use Sandy Lane. Agreed it's not brilliant but why insist on doing a right turn which you say takes you 20 mins to exit?
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The point is that you don't have to do it do you? You can turn left and then come back or use Sandy Lane. Agreed it's not brilliant but why insist on doing a right turn which you say takes you 20 mins to exit?
There is that... I looked it up on maps.g- and multimap a while ago - but I'm not familiar with the area, so did't comment... however, 20 mins. is a *long* time! Even at 15MPH it's 5 miles...
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