I'm with Armitage S all the way on this one. We don't need more initiatives etc we just need enforcement of the current laws.
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IanS
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RTB for Home Secretary then! Mind you he seems much too sensible to make a good job of it!
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Thanks AS, I accept. I'd try to do a lot more than look for sound bites.
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As you know they have this option in Germany but seems not to make any difference.
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I live in a village in Oxfordshire , from which the road to the next, bigger village is about 2 miles and has difficult bends , camber and a speed limit changing several times between 30 and 50.
This morning I went to and fro the other village in the space of about 15 minutes.
On the way there a guy driving a lorry full of scaffold poles coming the other way who was on his hand-held phone as his lorry wandered across the road towards me, and then he recovered it. On the way back the same thing, but with a van driver.
I don't think these people were thinking "Better not do this after the 28th.." it's already the law and they ignore it .
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Pity they didn't meet each other. That would have concentrated their minds (and possibly physically amalgamated them).
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I understand that using a hand-held two way radio is perfectly acceptable and specifically excluded from the new legislation. One wonders what makes using a hand held radio so much safer and less distracting.
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It's the way the go bloop bloop chchchchchc instead of some sort of meaningful discourse.
Awfully good for one's driving, that.
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"One wonders what makes using a hand held radio so much safer and less distracting."
I think it's because of who uses them, rather than the nature of the device. As case of pots & kettles, unfortunately...
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since this law came in i've often wondered about the police using their handheld mic's and lorry drivers using CB radios.!!
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sometimes a little bit too much opinion....but its only because i care !!!
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About time too. I presume this excludes using a hands free kit? I've had a few near nasties (once on a push bike) involving someone on a mobile phone.
I seem to recall that some research showed that using a hands free was no safer than using a normal mobile phone. It suggested that the danger was due to being distracted and getting engrossed in a conversation with someone who cannot see when the driver needs to pay attention.
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If you read court cases about people convicted of DUI you will see that in the majority of cases people were not just marginally over the limit- so could argue they made a misjudgement- but very much over the limit .That suggests that the limits and the penalty have no effect on behaviour because these people are simply ignoring the law and banking on not being caught.
I think it will be the same about the phone law changes today. At best the new punishment will stop some marginal users, but there will be a large number who will carry on regardless.
There is some strange philosophy that people can do what they want in their own car. On R4 this morning an apparently intelligent person admitted to mobile phone use while driving ( but not when he was doing over a 100, only on motorways, and after all he had a Volvo- presumably this made it OK because after all HIS car would protect him) .
I find it very depressing that we should have to mess about with laws on this matter. We should be a mature enough society that people regulate their own behaviour because it impacts the wellbeing of others.
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A twerp questioned on BBC 1 this morning referred to it as 'just another stealth tax'. How clueless can you get??? Trouble is, the term 'stealth tax' has been adopted to mean 'anything that someone doesn't like'.
BTW, I agree strongly with those who have commented about the need for better enforcement - applied to faulty lights etc as well.
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About time too. I presume this excludes using a hands free kit? I've had a few near nasties (once on a push bike) involving someone on a mobile phone. I seem to recall that some research showed that using a hands free was no safer than using a normal mobile phone. It suggested that the danger was due to being distracted and getting engrossed in a conversation with someone who cannot see when the driver needs to pay attention.
Hands free excluded.
From a personal point of view, I do find the handsfree quite distracting. However, when I need to concentrate, I tend to not hear what the other person is saying rather than not knowing what is going on the road. I am not sure if this is because I have one of those loud speakers you speak into rather than an ear piece.
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I have never used my mobile phone while driving, even before it was illegal or before it was advised against.
When using a hand-held mobile while driving was first made illegal I noticed that the number of people doing so dropped dramatically, but has crept back upwards since, led by van drivers.
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Interesting to drive around a big US city, like LA, where absolutely *everyone* is talking on a mobile phone while driving. It was recently made illegal in California, but the fine is $20.
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Everyone can survive without mobile phones, everyone did so for years.
It maybe convenient to order some sausages or arrange your social life while your driving
BUT If your that busy that you need to answer it time after time GET A SECRETARY or get up early to use your voicemail.
I encourage other drivers to report any person they see driving and holding a mobile
phone to the police AND be prepared to give a witness statement.
I think it will not be longe before speed camera and security CCTV cameras will be used to prosecute drivers if they were seen to be holding their phone whilst photographed.
( after all your a volunteer if your pratt enough to do that)
Also remember this applies to police officers too, meaning the HAND held Airwave police radios are legally categorised as an "interactive mobile device" or a mobile phone.
So if you see a police officer driving and touching/holding his personal radio you should take his registration number or call sign from roof (easy to remember) and note the time.
Report him to the local police station for further investigation, unless he was on an emergency call its 3 POINTS officer !
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Also remember this applies to police officers too, meaning the HAND held Airwave police radios are legally categorised as an "interactive mobile device" or a mobile phone. So if you see a police officer driving and touching/holding his personal radio you should take his registration number or call sign from roof (easy to remember) and note the time. Report him to the local police station for further investigation, unless he was on an emergency call its 3 POINTS officer ! the exemption for mobile phone usage (reg 110 Construction & Use Regs 1986 - as amended in 2003) gives everyone an exemption (there is no specific exemption for emergency services) solely for dialling 999/112 in a genuine emergency and if it is not safe/ practicable to stop
therefore any emergency service worker using a hand held radio would not have this exemption, because they're not dialling 999 on a mobile, they're calling a control room somewhere via a hand held radio
but............ do you really want to be this petty?....... do you really want emergency service staff to have to refuse to answer the radio until they're stopped..on every occasion......it would fairly unwise if you did...as the call out times would be badly affected.... and there are plenty of times you'd want the help as soon as possible... (the vehicle fixed radios have hands free capability and are linked to a central control room...the hand held radios are not hands free and are linked to a local control room... which is by far the most used set up)
i've included 'emergency services' not just 'police', because presumably you wouldn't want to just single them out....would you?
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>>I encourage other drivers to report any person they see driving and holding a mobile
phone to the police AND be prepared to give a witness statement.>>
Complete waste of time. The police will inform you that they have to actually witness it to prosecute.
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I recently worked a contract at Lancs Police HQ, and I was forever seeing coppers with phones/radios to their ears as they drove into/out of the HQ. That was despite there being signs everywhere telling them to not do so.
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I'm surprised by the number of drivers of X5s, Mercs, etc that still use their mobile, surely after getting a £30,000+ car they can afford £60 for a handsfree kit. As for texting whilst driving, I'd ban them.
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I can understand the ruling as driving using a phone is dangerous. However, it doesn't matter how severe the punishment as I rarely see plod on the roads these days anyway. Tailgating/reckless driving/excessive speed are also illegal but I see these 10 times a day as well - yet the only time I see evidence of plod is the occasional white camera van hiding behind a tree or wall!
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from the BBC story about this:
In 2005, 13 deaths and 400 injuries were blamed on drivers using hand-held mobile phones.
and
A recent survey commissioned by Direct Line suggested one million people in the UK were flouting the law at any one time
Can someone cleverer than me (that;s anyone then) tell me what those numbers mean in terms of my chances of being killed on the road this year because of mobile phone use? And how does that compare with say, winning the Lottery?
Just curious.
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Well assuming there were 3000 deaths on the road last year (far less than those killed in the home or garden by accidents) then car phones are responsible for 0.43% of fatal accidents.
Say you have 20 million motorists/pedestrians/cyclists on the road in a peak hour, therefore you have a you have a 0.015% chance of being one of the 3000. therefore you have a 0.00645% chance of being killed by the driver with a mobile phone.
you have a 0.000007% chance of winning the lottery jackpot Death awaits you.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Crikey.
Does that mean if I were to be killed and reincarnated and killed again 1000 times (by which time I'd be taking it pretty personally), I'd still only have won the lottery once?
I just like to get a perspective on these things.
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I'm no statistician.... but the 'odds' - (maybe I'm a bookie!) on their being '20 million motorists/pedestrians/cyclists on the road in a peak hour' must be pretty remote.
That's 1 in 3 of the population! On the road! At the same time!
Babies, children, hospitals, old people, people abroad, people at work (lots of people don't come and go at 'peak' hours) - 1 in 3 .... I can't see it..
That throws the old stats out of whack...
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" Well assuming there were 3000 deaths on the road last year (far less than those killed in the home or garden by accidents) then car phones are responsible for 0.43% of fatal accidents."
In some senses we have a strange approach to deaths on the roads. Now I happen to believe that it is reasonable to ban using mobile phones while driving (and eating food that significantly impairs driving etc). But looking at other causes of death is interesting. The number of deaths in hospital from infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile (or whatever it is called) is far higher than the number of road deaths. I assume they are mainly preventable deaths. But the cause is presumably a combination of cost cutting (outsourcing cleaning) and a natural rise in antibiotic resistant organisms. And the number of deaths in the home is higher still.
And when you look at pollution it is the same story. I happen to think that we should aim to reduce car emissions. But heating and industry are far greater contributors and yet I do not see a huge government push to improve insulation, and heating systems. Instead the focus is on taxing cars.
But I guess cars are an easier and more visible target.
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>>And when you look at pollution it is the same story.>>
We have just experienced the second warmest winter in history. The warmest was in Victorian times.
Not much global warming etc then....
The earth's weather patterns have been spread over thousands of years. But it creates a wonderful excuse for a certain future Prime Minister to make hay while the sun shines......:-)
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I'm no statistician.... but the 'odds' - (maybe I'm a bookie!) on their being '20 million motorists/pedestrians/cyclists on the road in a peak hour' must be pretty remote. That's 1 in 3 of the population! On the road! At the same time! Babies, children, hospitals, old people, people abroad, people at work (lots of people don't come and go at 'peak' hours) - 1 in 3 .... I can't see it..
Yup, and they are all in Luton, this evening. Of that I am sure.
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Yup, and they are all in Luton, this evening. Of that I am sure.
>>
I bypassed most of Luton tonight cos the queue in on the southbound A6 was so bad. Any idea what causes the mess?
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I read often, only post occasionally
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>>n 2005, 13 deaths and 400 injuries were blamed on drivers using hand-held mobile phones.
That's the tip of the iceberg. There is no way that anyone using a mobile phone and driving a vehicle is in full control of what is potentially a killing machine.
If you were one of the family members or those closely involved with the 13 people who died or 400 injured because of the results of a driver using a mobile phone, you may very well have a completely different viewpoint.
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I'm surprised by the number of drivers of X5s, Mercs, etc that still use their mobile>>
They can easily use hands free through the stereo system. In fact, judging by my experience, it's far superior to using a mobile phone.
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I have never used my mobile phone while driving, even before it was illegal or before it was advised against.>>
With you 100 per cent.
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Hi there, Dulwich, My company uses a dozen of these licensed two way radios all night at the weekends on the road with no objection at all from the police. I think this is allowed because the police use them whilst driving, and there-fore feel that this is the reason that they have been excluded from this legislation, Graham.
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To add some levity (no you shouldn't use a mobile phone while you're driving), i would like to repeat a joke i heard on the radio today (in the car, while driving)
"Alan Curbishley was reportedly driving around and using his mobile phone in a bid to get three points"
Oh i laughed and laughed
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Using a two way radio while driving is a lot different to talking on a mobile. Radio messages are short and to the point, between two people who are well versed in radio shorthand and who both understand the situation the messages are pertaining to.
A lot different from the typical telephone call, which is a much more detailed conversation demanding much greater concentration.
--
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Radio messages are short and to the point, between two people who are well versed in radio shorthand and who both understand the situation the messages are pertaining to.
Along the lines of "Hello Oscar Foxtrot Tango, was that two large Haddock or a large Cod and medium Haddock?" I guess ...
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Leif - in all seriousness many many years ago I was talking to an Officer in Court when this strange transmission came over his Burndept radio. "All Callsigns, All Callsigns, Tango Echo Alpha" Yes it was the Station teabreak. Thigs have changed a bit since then.
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M6 in Warwickshire today
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6401651.stm
"Roger Mole, from Sandwell in the West Midlands, fell foul of the regulations even though he had his hands-free set plugged in.
He received a text while he was driving, and clicked on it to see who it was from. Unfortunately for him, as he did so, a patrol car was driving past. "
and other examples ...
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Leif - in all seriousness many many years ago I was talking to an Officer in Court when this strange transmission came over his Burndept radio. "All Callsigns, All Callsigns, Tango Echo Alpha" Yes it was the Station teabreak. Thigs have changed a bit since then.
Excellent!
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You can still not use hand held radio whilst driving, If I caught you, then I would issue you with a ticket. As for ourselves, we are exempt from the law, however whilst driving, I pull over to the side of the road to use my radio, unless it is a 999 call.
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I have quite often, when the driving hasn't been too demanding, answered my mobile when on the move or sitting in stationary traffic. I suppose I'll have to stop doing it now. Same penalty as for going through a red light.
By the way, if one is photographed going through a red light while talking on one's mobile, will that be six points and £120?
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By the way, if one is photographed going through a red light while talking on one's mobile, will that be six points and £120?
...or do you BOGOF?
--
e Prof - Another Recycled Teenager
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...or do you BOGOF? -- e Prof - Another Recycled Teenager
Go on then, what's this one? Jays you're a tirrible man for the acronyms eProf...
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Oh Lud:
BOGOF = Buy One Get One Free
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Oh Lud: BOGOF = Buy One Get One Free
Doh, thanks, and I believe you may be older than I am too...
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Beast, I have to challenge your outrageous arrogant comment "exempt from the law" assuming you are one of our boys in blue, its chaps like you that get all of the Police a bad rep... which is undeserved as most of em are people doing a blooming good job! I am so outraged I even considered hitting the report this message as offensive button!
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I think beast meant the police were exempt from that particular law, rather than the law in general. I am sure beast is aware that the prison population contains a small but significant percentage of his ex colleagues who learnt that the hard way.
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Stevie,
Beast meant that there is an excemption under the Act (probably) not excempt from the law in general. Copper round here was prosecuted for texting in slow moving traffic, he was also punished by his Chief Officer.
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Hi there StevieC, Agree totally, Cheers,Graham.
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You can still not use hand held radio whilst driving, If I caught you, then I would issue you with a ticket. As for ourselves, we are exempt from the law, however whilst driving, I pull over to the side of the road to use my radio, unless it is a 999 call.
AFAIK the legislation is specific to mobile phones and allows "walkie talkies" except those operating in the mobile phone bands. Not to say you could not be ticketed for some other offence eg those sections used to nab apple scoffers and water slurpers, but the fixed penalty/3points in this thread is specific to cellphone use.
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it would appear a hand held radio is not included:
The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2003
" Mobile telephones
110. - (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using -
(a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or
(b) a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4).
(2) No person shall cause or permit any other person to drive a motor vehicle on a road while that other person is using -
(a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or
(b) a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4).
(3) No person shall supervise a holder of a provisional licence if the person supervising is using -
(a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or
(b) a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4),
at a time when the provisional licence holder is driving a motor vehicle on a road.
(4) A device referred to in paragraphs (1)(b), (2)(b) and (3)(b) is a device, other than a two-way radio, which performs an interactive communication function by transmitting and receiving data.
(5) A person does not contravene a provision of this regulation if, at the time of the alleged contravention -
(a) he is using the telephone or other device to call the police, fire, ambulance or other emergency service on 112 or 999;
(b) he is acting in response to a genuine emergency; and
(c) it is unsafe or impracticable for him to cease driving in order to make the call (or, in the case of an alleged contravention of paragraph (3)(b), for the provisional licence holder to cease driving while the call was being made).
(6) For the purposes of this regulation -
(a) a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function;
(b) a person supervises the holder of a provisional licence if he does so pursuant to a condition imposed on that licence holder prescribed under section 97(3)(a) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (grant of provisional licence);
(c) "interactive communication function" includes the following:
(i) sending or receiving oral or written messages;
(ii) sending or receiving facsimile documents;
(iii) sending or receiving still or moving images; and
(iv) providing access to the internet;
(d) "two-way radio" means any wireless telegraphy apparatus which is designed or adapted -
(i) for the purpose of transmitting and receiving spoken messages; and
(ii) to operate on any frequency other than 880 MHz to 915 MHz, 925 MHz to 960 MHz, 1710 MHz to 1785 MHz, 1805 MHz to 1880 MHz, 1900 MHz to 1980 MHz or 2110 MHz to 2170 MHz; and
(e) "wireless telegraphy" has the same meaning as in section 19(1) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949[3]."
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So, Westpig, a thing going bloop bloop chchchchchchch bloop Fostrot bloop Oscar is thought perfectly all right, in the hands of a duly constituted representative of the, er, home office?
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I meant Foxtrot of course. But I really really don't care about not having an edit button.
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it would appear a hand held radio is not included: The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2003
Seeing as this is info is some 4 yrs old, are there not some newer regulations, considering the changes as of 27th Feb 2007?
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Seeing as this is info is some 4 yrs old, are there not some newer regulations, considering the changes as of 27th Feb 2007?
Whilst I was typing that and searching in another browser window, it does appear that hand held radios aren't included.
Taken from news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3251725.stm
"Breaker, breaker... what about CB radio?
Curiously perhaps, two-way radio is not covered by the law, so it's not an offence to have a conversation while driving, using a hand-held CB radio microphone. Two-way radios that double up as mobiles will not be allowed, though. "
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Saw one of these idiots last Friday on the A38 near Lichfield. . .
In outside lane behind me when I pulled out to overtake, didn't notice him immediately (running in the dark on sidelights). As he passed me a lorry pulled out in front of him (to turn right at Lichfield for Derby as they do). Tried to attract his attention (flashing headlights etc) but he was too engrossed with his fancy folding moblile phone on which he appeared to be composing a text!
As was mentioned above - we need enforcement more than we need stiffer penalties.
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As for ourselves, we are exempt from the law,
I've noticed that of the police.
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>> As for ourselves, we are exempt from the law, I've noticed that of the police.
I know the meaning of the quote has already been clarified, but the police can still be done for dangerous driving. When they go through red lights, they cannot endanger other road users. My impression is that the police are very wary of being done for misconduct. My suspicion is that the force is a lot more regulated than 20 years ago though that is an uneducated guess.
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if a police officer does something wrong they are subject to the criminal justice system, like everyone else AND an internal discipline code, which is quite strict
it is not unknown to be found not guily at court, but still get fined/required to resign/sacked by the discipline board.
the standard of proof for a criminal court is 'beyond reasonable doubt'..the standard of proof for a police discipline case is 'balance of probabilities', like a civil court.
there are no judges or magistrates in charge, but senior police officers....which is not necessarily positive for a junior officer
further more, for driving offences, there is no 'emergency services driving licence', so if it all goes horribly wrong at work..........your own car insurance and your wife's will be badly affected... and your bike etc
i don't say any of the above is unreasonable.......as it maintains standards........but some people have no idea and presume things that are simply not accurate
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Westpig -After nearly 30 years contact with the Police - you are absolutely right. End of.
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sadly another goverment intervention and stealth tax. Thankfully I have a wireless handsfree.
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Well, for the few who are talented enough to be able to drive safely with one hand on the phone, the other on The Sun and the brain (!) on the next bodged plumbing job, it must feel like that.
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I increasingly think that the effect of using a mobile while driving is "personal". When I first got one (about 10 years ago?) I used it while driving but found it incredibly distracting so quickly stopped. Bought a handsfree thing, also found that very distracting so don't use it (no problem, my mobile calls are invariably social not important business). The bloke who overtook me at 80-90mph on the M5 the other day while texting "seemed" to be driving unaffectied!
It's a bit like drink driving - I have a mate who seems totally unaffected by alcohol (I'm not saying he drives after drinking) but I have 2 pints and fall over. Hence the legal limit for me is way over the top but for him (would probably) be way under his limit (Have I got that the right way round - I've had a glass of red stuff)
Hence the ban on phones is reasonable given it's effect on the majority(?) of drivers, but unreasonable for some "multi-taskers".
The simple solution, if you must use phone when driving, is avoid a £60 fine and points by spending a similar sum (maybe a bit more) on a handsfree kit - as Navarra man has
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Phil
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We're are all different and have different skills and failings, the law is a one size fit all thing that takes no (or very little account) of our individual make-up. A fellow found this out this afternoon in a busy town centre when he was nicked by a patrolling (yes a real walking talking) Officer when his emotions got the better of hm. The Officer applied the law and deprived him of his liberty (and as a consequence mine).
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Very rational post PhilW.
Stand by for a storm of carp though, if they're in the mood.
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SWMBO and I had a good laugh in a car park in Knutsford today. We watched a bright young woman answer the mobile as she went to her car. She carried on with a smile on her face, talking animatedly, climbed in, reversed out of a difficult space in one, and drove away all with one hand. I don't think too many young people will take notice !
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Dorset report
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/6433419.stm
".....One person was also issued a ticket for using a handheld mobile phone while supervising a learner driver."
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SALESMAN Keith Pemberton has been hit with a £60 fine and had three points slapped on his licence - for eating a cheese and pickle sandwich behind the wheel.
Police told him he had fallen foul of the tough new penalties for drivers using hand-held mobile phones.
tinyurl.com/2c78z9
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"Drivers need to be aware they may be liable to receive a fixed penalty notice if found doing anything that diverts their full attention in this way," he said.
So, presumably, anyone changing a CD or blowing their nose will be similarly dealt with?
BTW, I agree strongly with the 'use of mobiles' legislation.
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"Drivers need to be aware they may be liable to receive a fixed penalty notice if found doing anything that diverts their full attention in this way," he said. So, presumably, anyone changing a CD or blowing their nose will be similarly dealt with? BTW, I agree strongly with the 'use of mobiles' legislation.
There have been many serious accidents as a result of people tuning radios/changing tapes/CDs.
What about smoking?As well as distraction there is the danger of smoke or ash in the eyes causing involuntary closure,could well be next on the list.
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SALESMAN Keith Pemberton has been hit with a £60 fine and had three points slapped on his licence - for eating a cheese and pickle sandwich behind the wheel.
I hope it wasn't grated cheese. That gets everywhere
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Salesman Dwayne Wally was given 18 strokes of the birch for lightly scratching his family jewels on the hard shoulder of a busy M6 while travelling at at 'an estimated 230mph'...
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An item on sky news. news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1255190,00.h...l
"A senior police officer has been caught using a mobile phone while driving - a week after tough new laws were introduced.
Strathclyde Police Chief Superintendent Kenny Scott, 50, was stopped by officers from his own force as he drove on the M74.
He was fined £60 and will have three points put on his licence in line with new laws."
I bet he gets on well with his subordinates!
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Chief Superintendent...>>
You beat me to it...:-)
Bet he doesn't pontificate too often on the subject from now on......
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