Hello all,
My yr 2000 1.8 Almera is developing a death rattle on start up. If I raise the revs slowly the noise is absent, but a quick blip generates the new noise. It's the chain side of the engine, and disappears by about 2500 rpm.
Sometimes it's briefly present at idle. The engine gets fully synth evre 9K with nissan filters, and it's done 66K now.
My thoughts are that the chain has stretched and the tensioner can't keep up. Looking at the diagrams in a Nissan CD the slack and tensioned sides run very close together near the crank sprocket and they could be touching as the tensioner is failing to hold right tension in the longer chain. This might be my imagination, I dont know if they are actually that close. Any thoughts?.
It's a dam nuisance at this time of year as I try to work on the car in the summer.
Ps I dont post at work anymore, so I may be a while in replying
Regards
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If you suspect chain wear; five minutes work will pop out the coils and remove the cam cover. Look down into the chain tensioner area and you'll easily see if the tensioner piston is protruding by more than 10 mm, if it is; [I've never checked one that wasn't at least 20mm out] then the "Morse type" chain has stretched.
When this happens on the QG's; it's more usual to have the MIL light coming on for false cam/crank sensor codes, a slight misfire and a shaky rev-counter needle than chain-slap. It's probably flapping on the cam cover between the two cam sprockets.
Replacement is a good day's work the first time; change everything, or you'll be back in there in very short order. The bits; chain, guides, tensioner, sprockets, gaskets etc. are around £470. Book time is now 3.9 hours; but a good dealer tech can do four [often chain-only] in a day.
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Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure whether semi-synth would help now, as problems like this don't tend to resolve themselves. This is the early stage of the symptom showing it'self because there are no other problems with it. It runs well, starts every time and there are no warning lights.
I'll take a look under the cover as suggested soon. I guessed I'd have to replace everything as well, it's a false economy not too. It's going to be expensive I know. Still its a lot cheaper than running our 2 year old labrabor - his vet bills are horrendous, at least this year the insurance is paying out on that.
Cheers.
(I will come back on this when there is something to report.)
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Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure whether semi-synth would help now, as problems like this don't tend to resolve themselves. This is the early stage of the symptom showing it'self because there are no other problems with it. It runs well, starts every time and there are no warning lights. I'll take a look under the cover as suggested soon. I guessed I'd have to replace everything as well, it's a false economy not too. It's going to be expensive I know. Still its a lot cheaper than running our 2 year old labrabor - his vet bills are horrendous, at least this year the insurance is paying out on that. Cheers. (I will come back on this when there is something to report.)
What is the mileage out of interest? £470+ seems horrendous to me if it is under 200K - better off with cambelts?
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lolingram
66,000 is very good going for a QG engine timing chain. Probably down to the half recommended-distance changes with fully-synth.
5K; 13K; 14K; 23K; 41K; 43K that's more the typical service life of timing chains on these. Nissan won't pay - even for dealer-serviced ones. They say it's down to "acidic oil" and nothing to do with them.
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I think its scandulous for a chain to be worn out at this mileage, most chaincam engines go on and on, the chain should last the life of the engine, eg 150-200,000 mls, surely.
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prm36
I couldn't agree more. What's worse is the kind of people that are being hit. These cars appeal to the retired etc. and four-figure repair bills can be a bombshell to those on a fixed income. As always; not all fail early - but a lot still do.
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I used to know the mechanics at a local Nissan dealership (before it was taken over and all the staff changed).
The brightest tech there reckoned it wasn't that the chains stretched, but that they wore, mainly due to oil contamination through people using them for stop-start driving and short runs etc. His advice was to halve the oil change interval.
IME all chains are extremely reliable if they are fed with a supply of clean oil. Things go wrong if the oil feed gets interrupted or the oil gets dirty. With any chain I wouldn't go longer than 6m/6k.
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Screwloose:
Out of interest, when the chain is replaced what dimension do you find? (it must be something less than 10 mm from your earlier post).
The service interval is 9K, I think with semi-synth. I thought motorway / A raod mix with fully synth would be fine. Perhaps not. The weather has turned now so I might not get to see the tensioner this weekend as hoped.
Aprilia:
If the chain is worn, should I also see some rounding of the sprocket teeth?, is that expected?.
Leading question this one-How many miles do I have left?
Regards
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I know little about cars from a technical point of view but my chain-drive Saab developed a noise I assumed meant chain problems but turned out to be auxillary drive belt bearing. Not cheap but nothing like a new chain. Just a thought!
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A Dent
I've never had reason to go back in and see what the protrusion is on a new chain. I don't buy the "acidic oil" excuse; either the chain's materials are suitable for the normal running conditions - or they aren't. [There have been mutterings about " XXXX!! French parts" at certain dealers. The R-word is often used....]
This seems to be purely an issue with the"Morse-type" [internally toothed] chain on the N16 Almeras. [The late Micra's have a similar issue.] Other Nissan engines have two roller chains and have just normal chain-wear problems. The sprockets on the QG are very similar to straight-cut gears and are therefore hard to check for wear. They will inevitably have bedded-in to the old chain; so really should be replaced as a set.
How long will it last? Never heard of a stretched chain breaking yet [and there were literally dozens of cases on ilexa's website before it crashed;] but then, they don't normally rattle....
lolingram
Wasn't the everlasting Peugeot XUD belt drive?
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As Aprillia says, these engines shouldn't have a rattle as the norm - you might get a slight rattle on start from any Nissan petrol until the chain lubes - lasts no more than about 2 seconds. My QG18 hasn't ever rattled, even on very cold start, and it's on 55k, but does get fully synthetic every 6 months. The chain engines are very reliable, so long as you change the oil regular - check the Almera Owners Club for some additional advice.
Does sound like chain wear or chain tensioners, but it's best get the lot changed. I'll still prefer a chain engine over belt though.
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8< SNIP - so much easier just to delete when you swear than it is to edit. DD
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Good to see the Japanese can sometimes get things wrong.
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Is this specifically a problem of the QG engine in the Almera, or are the GA engines (GA16DE in particular) in P11 Primeras the same? Thanks.
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Those who prefer to keep their cars longer usually change the oil more frequently. Same with the GA and SR engines - just check out the relevant forums - whether it's necessary or not doesn't really matter - just piece of mind really - Nissan still make this an easy job to DIY !
No it's not an inherent fault, as these chains usually last the life of the car - it's uncommon for a fail, but things can and do fail - just recommending 'good practice'.
In this case, the tensioner could have failed or chain stretched...........but it's not gone critical yet, unlike a belt does immediately - time to check PDQ and have it fixed before it does serious damage like a snapped chain (or belt) !
Generally the Nissan PETROL engines are fairly bullet proof, but a cheap DIY oil change on a regular basis using genuine filters is an extra protection - I've always done this with all my cars (it's a cheap prevention service) including our Toyota Yaris - we've had it 7.5 years with just a water pump replaced (a £35 part).
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I change the oil every 3-4 K on my cars, but as I don't buy them new I never know if the previous owners have done the same. I have always been happy with late-1990s Nissans and have had no chain problems but should my Primera get written off tomorrow I am genuinely at a loss to know what 4/5 year old car I would replace it with. To be honest the 1.5 Almera was at the top of my list until reading this thread as it seems a sensible choice. But it seems too much of a gamble now, if this is to be believed.
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It's not an issue. REALLY !
It's very rare that a chain fails on these at all, even with abuse. - Just check the Almera Forum, or Primera forums. - We're all trying to address the original post here as to why his failed - just one of those things.
Why do you see so many older Primeras and Almera's on the road - they still work - not many other makes of that age running as every day mota's.
One thing you note on this forum is how few nissan, toyota, honda etc have major problems appear - loads for other makes !
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Thanks for all the replies.
A good point is made above, chains are genteel in that they just make some mechanical noise rather than wreck the engine when their time is up. Until I get the cam cover off I'm still not sure whether I have a problem or not. The last couple of warmer mornings this noise has been absent and I can't cause it to happen.
I did replace both aux belts in the summer because they had cracks across the v's so it should not be those.
Googling on QG cam chains and the like produces very little. Of the site that had stuff on it, they were yee-ha power mod types rather than standard engines so no wonders.
But for this start up and cold running noise which seems to be occasional, I have no problems so an inspection is needed to start with and then just listen for developments for a while.
I'll post again later.
Regards
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Oh, can you tell me how much the new aux belts were and how long the job took you - looking to replace mine in the warmer weather !
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Yep, about £30 for the pair from a Nissan dealer. Leave yourself a hour but it should take half that. Remove the off side front wheel and wheel arch inspection panel, the poppers are neat and reusable. The idle pully has a retaining nut that is also the pinch bolt for the wider belt adjuster. Undo it. The adjuster can be seem with a torch looking through the grill. It's about an 8mm socket from memory. The other belt is straight forward. The wider aircon belt is steel wired inside, so it won't stretch much so don't do it up too tight.
Anyway. I've had the cam cover off. It's a work of art inside, clean and well engineered, a beautiful thing to behold.
The tensioner piston is showing about 7-8 mm protruding, so i'm not worried anymore. If they are reported as being upto 20 mm out when replaced, mine has someway to go. I think I will carry a long screwdriver to locate (hear) the noise source when it reappears. TTFN till then.
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Could it be simply be the hydraulic tappets? Many healthy engines rattle a bit on cold mornings.
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Just a note to answer my own question. It was the aux drive belts(multi V). I readjusted them and the noise has gone. Very confusing this because it was not a typical belt squeal at all. A new one in my experience.
Thanks for all your replies.
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I thought I had the dreaded timing chain stretch too but the engine rattle also turned out to be the aux drive belts and it's now sorted for £40.
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