|
No he was in the station and left to get his meal which he had preordered flashed on the way used the accident as an excuse,reported by a member of the public who witnessed the whole incident in all the daily papers .
|
The member of the public witnessed him having ordered a takeaway? What incredible powers of observation.
I do so love the old police-baching threads, and the way they don't have to have any proof or logic, just vitriol.
|
|
He admited it for christ sake,police bashing to true this man could be arresting you or a member of your family and telling all sorts of porkies.
|
He admited it for christ sake,
No he didn't. He claimed that he was speeding while intending to respond to the call, but then had an update that he was not needed so slowed down again.
Now I don't know if this is true or not. Neither do you. The difference is that you seem to think you do.
|
|
|
|
Are you able to post a link to the story?
Yes. tinyurl.com/wdhtd
|
You don't have to be a Mason, but it helps.
|
So what are you saying Ashok? All policemen and magistrates are Masons and they all look after each other , what utter bull excrement...... They are obviously just members of the same Golf Club.
Seriously , if you have evidence - tell us all just who has been helped in this case by being a Mason , the copper , the Magistrate or the member of the public who reported the copper, the Chinese takeaway owner instead of making derogatory and unfounded allegations.
Just check out which organisation gives most money to charities in this country after the National Lottery and then deride them.
|
|
|
One interpretation of events is that he ordered the food, went too quickly to get it, got caught and lied to get out of it. Possible.
The other is that he ordered the food, on his way to get it heard about the accident, went fast to get to it, had an update saying he needed not go, found himself near the restaurant and so picked up the food. Possible and less likely, especially given the other circumstances.
The judge heard all the evidence, weighed it up, preferred the evidence of the officer and made his decision. Unlikely things do happen.
|
Just check out which organisation gives most money to charities in this country after the National Lottery and then deride them.
But why all the secret handshakes and the under counter dealings its one big secret club that gives a pittance compared with the money it makes for members to charity to keep the authorities of its back.
|
|
|
|
in my personal opinion only:
as in the tiff needel + mr. loophole thread,
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=46...6
some people on this thread seem to be suggesting that people who have been found not guilty were in fact guilty.
is that not treading on dangerous grounds and laying this site as well as the author to the possibility of being sued for libel or whatever?
in this "chinese takeaway" policeman's case, i actually think there is a positive point to be made:
the police and prosecutor's did their job in taking the matter to court and allowed a fair trial to take place. if they were corrupt, they could quite easily have decided that the evidence was not there to prosecute or brushed the whole thing under the carpet, and the public would never have heard of the alleged offence.
so remember, the man was charged and taken to court, but on the eveidence heard in court, the court has found the policeman not guilty.
|
|
But you have to ask yourself would the ordinary man in the street be awarded such time and receive the same result ,I think not .
|
But you have to ask yourself would the ordinary man in the street be awarded such time and receive the same result ,I think not .
I have to admit, were a member of the public to use the excuse 'I was responding to an accident report', call me prejudiced, but yes I'd probably assume he was lying!
|
|
|
|
Yes, he was charged... it was the court's decision to not go further. Isn't that why our justice system is supposed to be good?
At least we heard about it. As Dalglish says, if they were SO corrupt then it would have been brushed under the carpet like last night's takeaway.
|
|
|
But Dalglish, surely you realise that the opinions of the backroom, based on a possible biased and definitely incomplete story in a newspaper are clearly more correct than those of a court of law which has heard all the evidence from both sides?
After all, it comes up again and again and again on here.
Or, to be less flippant: Well said, and exactly the stance I have tried to get across in both threads you reference.
|
|
The court found him not guilty. That really should be the end of it. We can't pick and choose the verdicts of the courts that we agree with otherwise the basis of civilised democracy disappears.
|
The court found him not guilty. That really should be the end of it.
It won't be the end of it because he's going to be investigated by his force on a disciplinary matter. In that case the standard of proof is different.
Let's face it, if he hadn't been spotted by another motorist it would never have got to court in the first place. The report posted would have to be outright lies (which is is heck of a libel risk, so unlikely) for anyone else to have got off with it.
|
proof required for magistrates or crown court = beyond reasonable doubt.....(all criminal type cases)
proof required for county court or high court.... and police disciplinary cases = balance of probabilities
the police disciplinary cases used to be beyond reasonable doubt, but it has been changed to the lower standard.
he could be sacked, required to resign, (demoted if applicable...not in this case),fined heavily, fined lightly, be reprimanded, be given words of advice....or be let off i.e not guilty
the publicity will make it a high profile case, obviously, so it'll be an expensive chinese in my opinion.
all that tosh above about free masonry is laughable........what a load of shoe makers.... and no i'm not a freemason & wouldn't recognise one unless they accosted me wearing an apron with their left wotsit exposed.... that's my stereotypical image.
|
My wife is a retired magistrate. Her constant mantra was "don't believe what you read in the papers about court cases" The report is nearly always biased in favour of making it more "newsworthy" and leaves out a much of the evidence which would make understanding the verdict and the sentence possible.
Unless you sit in court and hear all the evidence you have little chance of forming a fair opinion about the verdict or sentence. You then have to bear in mind that magistrates and judges have strict guidelines concerning sentencing which they have to follow.
|
very good advice Mr B and echoes almost exactly that given to me by a mate who has just become a magistrate,
although i'm not sure how long he'll stick it........ he doesn't mind doing his bit....... but the manacled hands, politics, strict guidelines etc are getting him down already
|
|
What strict guidlines do you mean quietly been told not to send people to prison because they are full,just look at the court pages and punishments given out for very serious crimes.Most magistrates I have met are soft in the head and obey there political masters forgetting about the innocent public.I say no more I'm getting wound up
|
We all know that the police use their cars like this - this chap was just a bit unlucky and got caught.
A few years back I had rather a nice Alfa Romeo for sale. A guy rang up, asked a few questions and said he would come around later to look at it.
I was a bit surprised when a motorway patrol car pulled up and he jumped out in uniform. Spent about 3/4 looking at the car and giving it a 'very thorough' (!) test drive while his mate sat outside my house in the police car.
He was a nice bloke though and bought the Alfa - so no grumbles from me!
|
i'll try to keep this to motoring issues........
i can assure you the friend who has recently become a magistrate, is not 'soft in the head'. He is a local businessman with a fleet of vehicles, who is fed up with petty vandalism on them, the 3 attempts of thieves trying to have his wife's brand new CLK away & the final straw when a 'youf' rammed his trailer and had no insurance.
he gives up his own time to administer justice locally...and in his words "give a bit back". He would very much like to 'hammer' those that need it, but can't. He jailed soemone the other day and would have prefferred not to.
the strict guidelines i mentioned are sentencing guidelines. If the sentencing is too strict & beyond the guidelines, the 'youf' will appeal, then get a much lesser sentence. Some offences (e.g. non payment of council tax) means go straight to jail, no other options. Magistrates are under instructions just like the rest of us are.
|
My wife is a retired magistrate. Her constant mantra was "don't believe what you read in the papers about court cases"
And not just about court cases.
I used to believe newspapers.
Then I started reading reports about things I actually knew something about. Being idealistic, my first inclination was to be horrified and want to tell them that they hadn't got it right.
I'm more sceptical now, and would be very cautious about believeing anything written in the popular press - and that does not just mean 'tabloids'.
Of course, (returning hastily to the subject of motoring), I still believe what I read in certain Telegraph motoring columns. ;-)
|
Andy , when you make derogatory comments about Freemasons it helps if you know what you are talking about so I have attached a link for you.
www.grandcharity.co.uk/main.htm
Masons of course look after each other.Just because they are a secretive bunch does not mean they are corrupt .
|
Masons of course look after each other.Just because they are a secretive bunch does not mean they are corrupt .
No, but secrecy usually exists for a reason and makes it easier to be corrupt. The more open any organisation is, the less likely it is to be corrupt, IME.
|
|
Having lived under a secret service controlled country and married to a lady who lived through one most of her live the word secret conjurs up very alarming thoughts.The masons were formed to better themselves at the cost of others and the charity work is appeasment.Anybody who uses secrecy has a lot to hide.My father was a mason and a police officer and honest unlike many of other members.But this is the wrong place to discuss such matters.
|
There's nothing new under the sun. I've posted this before, but in Clapham in the seventies we always knew why the old bill fired up their blues and twos at 2 a.m.: the kebabs were getting cold.
What astonishes me is that some passing citizen went to the trouble of trying to get this copper into trouble, on his birthday too. What on earth is the matter with people? Have they nothing better to do, or do they think the police will commend their civic spirit and offer them a highly-paid job going round sneaking on people for petty offences?
We disapproved of people like that at school. I still do.
|
We disapproved of people like that at school. I still do.
Too right Lud. You can spot the self-satisfied air just dripping off the page when you read the quotes on that news story, can't you?
|
My father was a mason and a police officer and honestunlike many of other members.But this is the wrong place to discuss such matters.
i thoroughly agree old chap........but i think you'll find it was you that kicked this off, with the slight hint that freemasonry has it's part to play in the criminal justice system........
i can assure you with 25 years service in it.........it most certainly does not......... and is one of those 'old war stories'.
personally i think the odd chinese meal dash aside.......although there are flaws in the system, compared to the rest of the world ours isn't too bad
|
So Aprilia and Andy - You say masonry is secretive - I Googled masonry and charity to get the above link so how secretive is that? You could have done that for yourselves.
I say again that the bald statement that many masons are corrupt is Bull. Some may be its true just as some backroomers may be .
Aprilia - I respect your opinions on the technical forum but please go and find out the facts for yourself - you can if you want to and know where to look.
As to secrecy - if I ask you how much you earn you do not tell me.Why?
That is because it is none of my business and a secret to you.
I do not infer that you are corrupt from it ....any more than I would say your father was corrupt Andy because he was a copper or you are corrupt because you keep your profile hidden on here as I do.
I only ask that you do not present stupid all encompassing bald statements as fact. on this forum.... Go and find out the facts and don't talk twaddle.
I know that its nothing to do with motoring so I will leave it there.
|
Helicopter - I didn't say Mason's were corrupt. I said that secret organisations are generally not a good thing - it makes corrupt behaviour more likely. Let's just say I know an awful lot about Freemasonary - I don't need to Google it!
As to how much I earn - well last year it was just short of £77k. I don't have a problem with anyone knowing that. In fact I like the Swedish system where anyone can access anyone elses tax and income details. I think that's a healthy thing. Why some people are so paranoid about others knowing what they earn is beyond me.
|
Helicopter
Are you a freemason ?
Or is that a secret too !
|
Go and find out the facts and don't talk twaddle.
Ok, enough of the rudeness and sniping please.
I know that its nothing to do with motoring so I will leave it there.
That would be most appreciated.
DD.
|
Setting aside the Freemasonary debate!
This bobby did not have a very good birthday to say the least.
1. Some member of the public took issue with him buying a Chinese meal and reported him - there really are some vitriolic people out there.
2. He got caught by a speed scamera.
In the first instance even bobbies have to eat so what is wrong with purchasing a meal from any fast food outlet? Canteen facilities are provided at some large stations but tend now to serve the 9 x 5 ESSO brigade. Regularly they get no meal break at all.
In the second £60 and 3 points bears no comparison to purjury, possible prison, sacking and loss of pension. I think this guy had mid 20's years service. I know which bullet I I would bite.
And then you put the two together. I doubt the organisation would condem him for buying a meal as it is a recognised practice. Bobbies are encouraged to take thir 'refs' in suitable public arenas - its all about 'high viz'.
At the end of the day it was the bobby who put the two together in his defense - bizzare as they may seem. So perhaps the whole scenario may be true. And he didn't get Nick Freeman to represent him!
--
Fullchat
|
Bobbies are encouraged to take thir 'refs' in suitable public arenas - its all about 'high viz'.
'refs' ??
|
|
Refreshments - enshrined in law as a 45 minute break.
|
|
I'll have to print this off and show it around the nick. In twelve years, I can't ever remember getting 45 mins for refs. And that's on a twelve hour shift.!! In fact, I'm convinced my buttie box has got an alarm that sends a signal to the comms room. As soon as it's opened, they call me.
|
I'll have to print this off and show it around the nick. In twelve years, I can't ever remember getting 45 mins for refs. And that's on a twelve hour shift.!! In fact, I'm convinced my buttie box has got an alarm that sends a signal to the comms room. As soon as it's opened, they call me.
>
the 45 mins was for the 8 hour shift......a 12 hour one should be an hour
as well as the 11 hours gap between shifts?
|
>>as well as the 11 hours gap between shifts? <<
Used to have fun with Police witnesses who'd been on a quick change before a trial... (no I never fiddled with the Courtroom thermostat !)
|
>>as well as the 11 hours gap between shifts? << Used to have fun with Police witnesses who'd been on a quick change before a trial... (no I never fiddled with the Courtroom thermostat !)
>
hmm, it's all coming out now isn't it........ the old gap was 8 hours, which when you combined your journey home and journey back in again, didn't leave much time for kip
please tell me you didn't cover Central London & Horseferry Road mags in the early 80's..... come to think of it, the court was a tad warm on occasions.........o : )
|
|
No I'm a provincial mouse. Not funny really expecting Officers to be firing on all cylingers, especially after a quick change and after the lunch adjourment. I very nearly won a breathalyser case in these circumstances once -- ver nearly threw a spanner in the works, but Justice did actually prevail on that one.
|
b.p.:
maybe "refs" = refreshments ?
|
|
|
>>police and prosecutor's did their job in taking the matterto court and allowed a fair trial to take place. the man was charged and taken to court, but on the eveidence heard in court, the court has found the policeman not guilty.
What an excellent post..
Yes, the police themselves took the matter to court. No funny handshakes there were there? Tried, found not guilty...end of story....ish.
How many backroomers in this forum have asked how to get out of speeding fines or parking tickets? Lots! For goodness sake.
|
oh....and one more thing. When Mr Pinch Faced Joe Public made the sneaky beaky telephone call to dob the guy in it....did he have any clue as to where the officer might have been before the heinous crime of "suspiciously stopping for a chinese takeaway to the detriment of good order"? Maybe he had been at a 4 handed FATACC for hours dealing with blood & snot etc, maybe he had been to someones house and told the occupier that his/her son, father, mother, wife, husband etc had been killed or seriously wounded in an accident. maybe it was the 1st chance he'd had to eat in 12 hrs. Maybe he had been sat on his lardy backside all day. Maybe he was taking the Micky. Who knows?
It doesn't matter, all that mattered was that some mean spirited, pencil moustached, Rover driving "hat and tartan blanket on the parcel shelf "28.5mph driving, pinch faced, do gooding "i pay my taxes" jobsworth got his jollies off by making the call. Spite, spite, pernicious spite.
|
|
|
Could the reason we all find the copper's story so unconvincing is that we all routinely expect to lie when we get a ticket?
All the Magistrates have to find is reasonable doubt.
--
Stevie
Lakland 44-02 Sunburst
Yamaha YTS-23
|
|
|
|
|
You don't have to be a Mason, but it helps. Stone me.
MD
|
|
Most people would probably agree that from time to time we all break the law either un/intentionally. Sometimes we are unlucky and get zapped. Other times we get away with it. This man was cleared, I can't see why people have a problem with that.
|
"I can't see why people have a problem with that."
Maybe because time and time again,a policeman gets off the hook,when joe public most certainly would not.
You try telling a magistrate that "you were exploring the performance limits for future reference " and see where that gets you.
Nothing to do with this example,I know,but it does happen time and time again that policemen do " get away with it " and these are only the examples that get into the headlines.
How many are let off by their colleagues by flashing their warrant card (when in plain clothes ) , commonly known as a " Get out of jail free card "
|
Well in one way or another the chinese restraunt in question did get some free advertising in the nationals!
But for the not quite so correct reason ;-
--
Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
|
|
|
Mr Tee,
Its just when a Police Officer "gets off with it" or wasn't guilty of anything in the first place (perish the thought) it tends to hit the press a bit more than Joe Public, Mr Public "gets off" (or isn't guilty) with things as well in the very same way its just that that is not good press. Take a day off and go to your local Magistrates' Court one day and you'll see what I mean. Having followed local case quite closely where two Officer were indicted with Manslaughter I am convinced that CPS takes Police cases to court on thinner evidence than if it was an ordinary punter.
and laws were most numerous when the commonwealth was most corrupt. Tacitus, Annals
|
|
I bow to your superior knowledge Pugugly !
|
|
|
Too right Pug...well said.
In my 30yrs of service I knew quite a few colleagues who had been arrested for drink driving, and convicted. I knew loads with points on their licence. My own son (a police officer) was Gatso'd in Maldon, he swallowed and paid up.
As for the "get out of jail free card" mentioned by someone? A CID officer flashing his brief to a TrafPol officer would be like a red rag to a bull and would guarantee a summons. Enmity between Essex TrafPol and Met CID is legendary. Whether true or not, there was rumour of a kitty pay out for Essex TrafPol if a Met was "bagged"
Actually, coppers nowadays stand a greater chance of being caught and dealt with for indiscretions than they did years ago when it WAS swept under the carpet.
I am afraid that if people get all their information just from newspaper banner headlines, they will remain ignorant as well as permanently dispeptic.
|
|
|
|
Manslaughter - and for the record they "got off with it" or was it found not guilty by an old fashioned Jury of 12 ?
|
Can I add a postscript to this?
I spoke to someone (I won't say who, but he is qualified to speak on the subject and reliable) who happened to be in court on the day of trial and to hear all the evidence in this case.
The copper produced details of timed radio calls which, together with the other timed evidence, confirmed beyond doubt that the officer's highly improbable story was true.
--
Stevie
Lakland 44-02 Sunburst
Yamaha YTS-23
|
he will still go through a disciplinary process, where the standard of evidence has been reduced from the criminal court standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' to the civil court standard of 'balance of probabilities'
so if he gets a senior officer chairing the proceedings who is as cynical as some of us on here...he'll still be doomed
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
