I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
I wonder if you'd be so good as to excuse two very stupid questions. But before I ask them, some background info. I recently bought two new Yokohamas which were put on the front. In the dry, they're brilliant - really nice and grippy. In the wet, they're bordering on dangerous. I've just got back from driving somewhere and even taking it slow, you can feel that they want to let go but it's easy enough putting it back into line.

Because of this, do you think I'd be best swapping the tyres around tomorrow? It will be a hard task given I only have the jack that came with the car but if it will help, I'm willing to do it. I'm thinking this might be a bad idea because it might not be as easy feeling the back go and correcting it.

Second question, if I swapped the fronts to the back will I need to get them rebalanced? (Please say no).

I'm quickly losing confidence in them. Someone pulled out in front of me before completely out of the blue (I'd seen them but they did a ridiculous maneuvre) and I had to hit the brakes hard. The wheels locked up and the car went (this was at a relatively low speed) but I lifted off and braked again and I narrowly escaped it. This might not sound like much but that genuinely has never happened before. I know the car doesn't have ABS but you could brake as hard as you liked and taken corners at stupid speeds in any whether (bar ice!) and you had stacks of warning before it let go. Now it happens on bends at 30mph whereby previously they could have been taken at 50+.

It's definitely absolutely the tyres. Even the worn ones they replaced had better grip and the problem only manifested itself since I put the new ones on. They're worn in too - I can't remember how long ago I got them done but in the last week alone I've done close to 500 miles.

Thannks for any help and advice,

Adam
I really dislike my tyres - Collos25
The only answer is to replace them with what ever you had before, its the only thing that will keep you happy.
I really dislike my tyres - jc2
If the backs were balanced,then no.you haven't got the pressures wrong have you;I've had some peculiar tyres in the past but never experienced a total lack of grip-why not contact the manufacturer?
I really dislike my tyres - Roger Jones
Two observations: the new tyres should have been fitted to the rear in the first place and perhaps they need some wear before becoming fully effective. I know that some disagree with fitting new (or the best pair of ) tyres to the rear, but all the tyre companies recommend it, as do the likes of Micheldever Tyre Services, no matter whether it's front- or rear-wheel drive. And, yes, check the pressures.

The chances of the tyres being intrinsically faulty are extremely small, I would think, but I suppose it it possible.

Which car?

From

www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_cons_bib_pqr_neuf....p

Michelin say:

"Whether you have front or rear wheel drive, we recommend that you use newer tyres for the rear set, for extra safety in unforeseen or difficult situations (emergency braking, tight bends etc) particularly on wet surfaces.

Numerous tests have shown that it is easier to control the front wheels than those at the rear.

Front tyres generally wear quicker than those fitted at the rear, particularly on front wheel drive cars, which are currently in the majority.

New tyres fitted in front :
- The behavior of the car will change, because the front / rear balance will be reversed. The driver, used to a car with less grip at the front, will therefore be taken unawares.
- On a slippery road, the rear will lose traction before the front of the vehicle.
The driver will have no chance of controlling the rear, and will be tempted to accelerate further, which will amplify the spin effect. Only an experienced driver will be able to recover from this dangerous situation...

New tyres fitted at the back :
- The handling of the vehicle will be similar to that known by the driver before the tyre change, because the traction balance will be the same.
- Rear traction will be better, and the driver will be able to control and steer their vehicle without a problem by decelerating and turning the steering wheel in the direction of the bend.

That's why Michelin advises you to reduce the risks you take by fitting new or less worn tyres at the rear of the vehicle for:
- better grip on bends
- extra safety."
I really dislike my tyres - George Porge
I've got Toyo's on my Golf estate and they did slip and slide for a while but are now very predictable wet or dry.

New tyres have a coating of silicon mould release agent on them and the tyre fitter warned me to be careful for the first few hundred miles or so until it'd worn off
I really dislike my tyres - Aprilia
This is strange. Yokohama are a pretty good tyre in my experience.

I would double check the pressures etc and drive carefully for the next couple of weeks to see if the top surface 'beds in' and the grip improves.
I really dislike my tyres - peugeotenginebreaker
Having had a lot of tyres for various applications i honestly say yoko's are terrible in the wet unless you are spending big money on proper wet tyres for track use. For a daily drive I swear by either continentals or toyo proxes.
I really dislike my tyres - Aprilia
Having had a lot of tyres for various applications i honestly
say yoko's are terrible in the wet


Nonsense. Yokohama Advan is an excellent wet-grip tyre and is now fitted as standard to the Lotus Elise because owners complained about wet-grip of the Pirelli P-Zeros they used to use. Here's are review: "Yokohama: Road. Overall similar results to those achieved in dry conditions. Track. Wet grip significantly higher than OE Pirelli, with handling bias slightly towards understeer. The tyre gives good grip to extreme slip angles as was shown in the previous dry assessment, and also has good resistance to aquaplaning. Good yaw stability throughout corner. Wet Grip Score 7.5, Handling 7 "

The A520, A539 are also well rated, but won't be as good as the Advan.

I really dislike my tyres - cheddar
Adam, they may well still need to bed in, they will need a few hundred dry miles before they are at their best in the wet. However if you really dont like them get two new tyes fitted and sell them on e-Bay, if they are almost as new you will probably get 60% of the cost back.

I dont buy the best-tyres-on-the-back argument, perhaps for a little old lady driving a 3 Series it makes sense so as to reduce the likelyhood of oversteer however for most cars/drivers the best tyres on the front improves wet braking and traction.

I really dislike my tyres - Roger Jones
Cheddar

Then you disagree with all the major tyre manufacturers and major retailers. Up to you, of course, but I wouldn't.
I really dislike my tyres - cheddar
Cheddar
Then you disagree with all the major tyre manufacturers and major
retailers. Up to you, of course, but I wouldn't.


Its a catch all, it is the only advice that works for everyone though for the likes of you, I, and of course Adam who know a little bit about these things then we can take a more informed decision for ourselves.
I really dislike my tyres - M.M
Adam,

I always put my new tyres to the front... but that is a side issue. I also always buy tyres with a known good wet grip. My thinking is that's the time when you *really* need your tyres. So what if the dry grip is 5% down... just control the drift.

But by swapping round tyres with a poor wet grip you asking for real problems with a rear-end breakaway. Like other advice above I'd change them for some that better match the rears and EBay the old ones.

Folks often underestimate the potential for serious handling issues with front/rear pairs having very different wet behaviour.

David
I really dislike my tyres - Red Baron
I don't read anywhere what type of Yokos Adam has had fitted. Yokos, according to tests, can be wither good or bad, depending on type, size, vehicle etc. From what I have read, and I read the German tests too because I can, Yokos are certainly not the best, but more mid-range.

I've just put some Pirelli P5000 on the front (to replace Bridgestone RE720) and am happy with them. They needed very little bedding in. I generally aim to buy tyres for grip in the wet.
I really dislike my tyres - local yokel
Saw a Fifth Gear prog years ago - the Q was whether to fit new tyres to the front or rear of a FWD car. Logically you'd think to fit them to the front, as the front end is both steering and traction. The test showed the car went better with the new ones on the rear, and the part-worn (but nowhere near the min) on the front. Can't remember who was doing the test, or the test technique.

Borrow a pair of axle stands and swop them front to rear would be my advice.
I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
Wow - thanks for all the info!

The tyres are Yoko S306's on a Focus saloon - they're 195/55/15s. Ordinarily I'd go to Costco and they'd put them on the back of the car and move the backs to the fronts but this time I went to a smaller (but well respected) tyre place near Liverpool and thye put them straight on the front.

The thing is, I can understand the warnings about putting the worst tyres (the Yokos) on the back - if they lose grip when on the back, it might prove difficult to pull the car back into line whereas where they are now on the front, it's pretty easy.

Unfortunately, changing them is not an option. I still have no job and I'm overdrawn by a significant amount (Mum and Dad sorted the tyres out for me - not to mention the new brakes and skimmed discs the other day) so I'm not in any rush to ask them again.

The tyres have probably got closer to 1000 miles on them but I've no idea how many have been in the wet so I might give it another week or two (by then they'll be more than worn in) and I think swap them. Don't worry - I'll drive carefully and see if they're any better in a few weeks.

It's really quite disconcerting though - it's like you're hitting diesel on bends. I'll double check the pressures after just to make sure. For what it's worth, the back has Michelins on (sorry - can't remember which model - the 80 quid ones from Costco though!).

Thanks very much for all the help and advice - I'll keep you informed of any developments that may.....develop!

Thanks again,

Adam
I really dislike my tyres - caesar
If you have done nearly a thousand mile on them you would of thought the the rubber has worn in.
Im no expert but i cant see them getting any better with more use so like stated, stick them on the back or cough up for some new ones.If it was me i would hate to think id wasted my money so on the back they would go.
I really dislike my tyres - IanJohnson
Are they mounted correctly - unidirectional are just that - designed to work well in one direction only.

There will be arrows for rotationon unidirectional and inside/outside for asymetric.

Guy here had new tyres on his 3 series coupe and didn't notice they had put the unidirectional tyres on wrong way round!
I really dislike my tyres - Roger Jones
Adam

If you do put them on the back, do report in again and tell us whether you notice any difference.
I really dislike my tyres - bell boy
17 posts on tyres being crap...................... :-o
as said put them on the back
double check the pressures
new tyres need running in no excessive speeds
I really dislike my tyres - GregSwain
It's amazing what a difference the tyres will make to the car's handling. I can't wait to wear out the terrible Avons on my car, because they're noisy, not grippy enough, and they weren't balanced when fitted by the previous owner so they weren't circular, and caused steering-wheel wobble and an irritating noise at speed. I had them balanced soon after buying the car and they're much better, but still don't feel quite right. The compound is also so hard that I'll probably still have them this time next year!

Adam, your problem might gradually disappear once the tyres begin to wear. Putting them on the back will make the problem less noticable in the short-term in terms of steering feel (until you lose the rear end around a sharp bend!), but there's always this constant debate about putting new tyres on the front or rear. I've always just put them wherever the old tyres came from, and never had a problem.
I really dislike my tyres - jc2
The reason for putting new tyres on the back is given as "new tyres on the back will allow backbrakes under heavy braking not to exceed the front brakes and cause a spin";however ,most experienced drivers would prefer the grip at the front.
I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
I think I will put them on the back. Looks like I'll have a fun day tomorrow!

It's got to be the wet. I checked the pressures before - fine. I've just got in and went on a few demanding roads gradually increasing confidence and it never put a foot wrong. The roads I went on were all completely dry.

Bet you if it rains again later when I go out it'll be all over the show. Im a bit wary of the back losing grip but in the interests of science I'll swap them and report back.

Thanks again for all the advice and help,

Adam
I really dislike my tyres - Gazza
Adam, the S306 is a very old design now. I put those on my Mk1 Mondeo 1.8 petrol back in 2001. The size was 185/65 R14.

My opinion on the tyre was that it was very hard wearing, possbly due to very hard compound. This means the tyre is great for Amercian highways (sold there at the time) but offer little grip in cold, slightly damp condition (i.e. since late last week in UK). I used the S306 when I was still in university and did 30k on the front tyres with 3mm left when I sold the car, compared to the pair of A539 I used before the S306 which lasted only 10k at the front.

However, I noticed that the S306 tyres became more predictable in cold, damp condition half-way through the road rallies I used to do (i.e. less wheel lock-ups, less vibration through steering when the car started to understeer). I guess this is because the tyres got warmer and the rubber become more flexible through hot brakes and constant acceleration / deceleration.

If you are looking for a long lasting tyre, S306 is good enough but the tyre is not without its weakness.

I hope you didn't pay much for it either. I paid 36 pounds for the tyre and 5 pounds fitting back in 2001.
I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
Uh oh. I've been ripped off.

I paid a lot more than 36 quid. I paid more than twice that for each tyre. Or rather Dad did. We went wanting Michelins but they never had any and said they'd do us the Yokos for the same price.

Oh well! I'll know for next time!


I really dislike my tyres - Roger Jones
I don't think I would ever reckon to know better than the manufacturer about the best way to use a product, even in my own industry.

I worry about those who see comments dismissing what has to be well founded advice -- think of the legal dimensions -- without the better understanding that others (not me) may believe they have, and then do the same themselves on the grounds that "Oh, there is actually no agreement about putting the best tyres on the rear, so I'll do what I like". Such agreement exists among the major tyre manufacturers and retailers.

As a driver with 40 years' experience, I buy a product, I look at the manufacturer's recommendations and they are confirmed by a major retailer with no allegiance to any particular manufacturer. I heed the advice of both parties.
I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
Are you on about me there Rog? I've hard a hard day so I've probably missed something.
I really dislike my tyres - GregSwain
"Oh, there is actually no agreement about putting the best tyres
on the rear, so I'll do what I like". Such agreement
exists among the major tyre manufacturers and retailers.


This has been widely debated on this forum before, and lots of people argued strongly each way. In my own opinion it would make very little difference with decent tyres. If you replace all 4 at once, you'll have new tyres on the front.
I really dislike my tyres - GregSwain
I paid more
than twice that for each tyre. Or rather Dad did. We
went wanting Michelins but they never had any and said they'd
do us the Yokos for the same price.


Ouch! Looking around on the net, the Yoko A460s and Michelins are about the same price (around £80), but the perfectly good Falken ZE512s are only £55 each fitted. Surely a brown focus saloon doesn't require anything more upmarket than Falkens! ;-)
I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
>.Ouch! Looking around on the net, the Yoko A460s and Michelins are about the same price (around £80)<<

Please don't Greg! It hurts too much!

It's Gold. Champagne. Certainly not brown!
I really dislike my tyres - quizman
Adam, I remember advising you to get Michelin's, because you already had them on the rear. I hate mixing different makes of tyre.

My advice is to ask your dad to get a pair of Michelin's to match the other two. I am sure he would rather spend £160 on you, rather than seeing you in hospital, or worse. My son has just rung me to get him a new set of tyres for his MB SLK (no, he's not a hairdresser). I am happy to do so because I like to feel that he is as safe as possible.

Don't forget to tell your dad that one day he will rely on you, my dad is 91 and is always wanting something! Luckily we stopped him driving about 2 years ago.

Good luck with dad, I'm sure you will let us know what happens.

P.S. If the Yoko's are no good, do not put them on the rear, it will make the handling worse.
I really dislike my tyres - daveyjp
£80 for a very common sized tyre seems pricy. It's a few years since I had a Focus, but I remember getting four Michelins of that size for it for £200 fitted. As for front or rear fitting check your handbook. Mine specifically states that new tyres should always go on the front.
I really dislike my tyres - Hamsafar
I only had Yokohamas once (I forget the exact code name of them), they were rubbish in the wet too, and wore out very quickly, attributes which rarely come together! I was surprised with them being Japanese, I imagined them to be made/designed with modern technology.
I also hear it rains a lot in japan.
Some people swear by them, but might be swayed by their motorsport advertising and product placement.
I really dislike my tyres - yorkiebar
One comment that has been missed.

If they tyres are dangerous why not go back to supplying place and ask for their comments and help. They are responsible for what they sell and fit; and should be keen on sorting it.

It may be as simple as a directional tyre misfitted or a faulty tyre etc.

Don't keep driving assuming it will get better though.

and for what its worth, as has been discussed loads before. on a fwd car I always put the new tyres on the front. On rwd cars they go on the back.
I really dislike my tyres - rtj70
If it's recommended new tyres always go on the rear, then why in the last upteen years have tyre places always just swapped the ones that needed swapping. Okay I have a company car but this seems like an excuse to make more money to take off wheels that don't need to be.

And I've had to fight at times with lease companies (had Dial, Swan and Leaseplan... okay Dial became Leaseplan and now owned by VW) to replace tyres sooner than they wanted to and always won on safety grounds.
I really dislike my tyres - BobbyG
Quizman, if your son can afford an SLK, why is he not buying his own tyres????????
I really dislike my tyres - quizman
Quizman, if your son can afford an SLK, why is he
not buying his own tyres????????


That's a very good question, I had not thought of. I don't think he can really afford the SLK, it's on the drip!
I really dislike my tyres - Micky
">I went to a smaller (but well respected) tyre place near Liverpool<"

">I still have no job<"

Move to London.

Yokos should be OK in the wet, perhaps not as good as .. er ... Goodyears, and certainly not as good as Vredesteins, but the Yokos shouldn't be scary.

Check tracking/alignment.
I really dislike my tyres - slowdown avenue
in the snow storm a coule of years ago., a young lad in his corsa, drove slowly round the corner where i live,and skidded into my gate post. yer he was the once proud owner of yokohamas tyres. lucky for him,i was going to take it out anyway, so i charged him a tenner, bet his number plate alone cost more, dread to think what tyres cost.
I really dislike my tyres - yorkiebar
iam surprised yokos are getting such bad reports.

Done lots of miles rallying with yoko's fitted and price for price they are the best for rallying imo, unless you want to spend mega money. And the surfaces there are often wet and always cold!
I really dislike my tyres - bell boy
they are 195 50 55"s its whats called in the trade a spanking size said with gritted teeth and a oo er they are difficult to get look...........
I really dislike my tyres - Aprilia
I don't have any Yokohama tyres and nor do I have any connection with the company, but I do know that they make some outstanding tyres that are OE fitment on high performance cars (e.g. Nissan 350Z, Lotus Elise, Jaguar). There tyres are comparable with any other premium brand.
Unfortunately the thread starter has purchased the Yokohama S306 which is an old tyre design (10 years) and not designed for 'performance' applications. I am very surprised this tyre is still available - it may have been 'new old stock'. I don't think this tyre is representative of the latest Yokohama tyres.
I really dislike my tyres - GregSwain
There's a 4-digit code somewhere on the tyre that tells you the week and year that it was made - if it says 2303, the tyre was made in the 23rd week of 2003 (I think the code is near the "E" marking on most tyres). Have a look at your Yokohamas Adam, and see how old they are!
I really dislike my tyres - Kevin
Adam,

Maybe you could keep the tyres and swap the car?

Just a thought..

Kevin...
I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
Swap the car? Never!

Greg - I just went out and checked the code and....the only code on there - the only numbers bar S306 in fact are B3372U-4. Maybe they were made before tyres started having dates on!!! Please say the 72 doesn't mean 1972!!!

Quizzy - we went with the intention of getting Michelins. But we had to leave the car and they rang up and said they never had any and that they could do us a special deal on Yokos. I now find out that special deal was the oldest Yokohamas known to man.

I have absolutely no intention of asking Dad; simply because I know he'd say yes and I don't want him to buy two MORE brand new tyres. I'll just have to get used to it. I drove last night in the wet and rain and it didn't lose grip. That either means - a) I'm slowly getting used to it and adjusting my driving (subconsciously) accordingly, b) It's the grease and rubbish that's come to the surface with the first rain that's been making it slide or c) In 24 hours they're now fully bedded in!

I've changed my mind AGAIN! I think I'll leave them on the front. I'd rather have the good ones on the back. At least they're predictable where they are. The Michelins still could pass for brand new (they're not that old either).

Thanks very much for all the help and advice. Before I say yes to tyres I've never had before, rest assured, I'll ask here beforehand!

Thanks again,

Adam
I really dislike my tyres - nick62
In my experience of trying to get tyre dealers to supply Michelins, they ALWAYS offer you something else (apart from Costco).

I Actually got one tyre dealer to admit that they are the best value for money when you take into account how long they last, but he didn't stock them.

In 1990 on a company Sierra I had the misfortune to have (horrible car) a certain national tyre dealer sold me some "Dunlops" (because he didn't have the Michelins). When I went to collect the car they were actually the tyre companys own brand, "but they are made by Dunlop" came the excuse "and we will repair any puctures free of charge". I would have got them to take them off again if it had been my own car, but I didn't have the time to mess about.

To cut a long story short, they were absolute carp. I used to travel up the A1 to Newcastle almost every week then and the double wheel lorry ruts used to make the back of the car actually jump about. I couldn't wear them out fast enough, they nearly drove me mad.
I really dislike my tyres - Number_Cruncher
>>I've changed my mind AGAIN! I think I'll leave them on the front. I'd rather have the good ones on the back. At least they're predictable where they are.

Adam, I think that you are doing the right thing.

As I was reading down the thread, I was getting worried that you might be putting some poor tyres on the back based on rigid dogma, i.e., always new tyres on the back - I would argue, that you should always have the best gripping tyres on the back - particularly in wet grip situations. Most of the time this would equate to having the new tyres on the back, but not in this particular case.

Number_Cruncher
I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
I think I'm doing the right thing too - I don't have to jack the car up four times for a start! ;-)

I really dislike my tyres - nick
I disagree. When you brake and steer most of the grip is afforded by the front wheels, you really don't want dodgy tyres there. Swap them round and go and find a quiet carpark and learn about controlling oversteer.
I really dislike my tyres - yorkiebar
I would estimate that 99% of motorists in fwd cars have never and will never experience oversteer; regardless of what tyres they have got fitted where!

I also estimate that 99% of motorists in fwd cars have or will experience understeer; a problem more likely to happen if poor tyres are there too!

My own figures, not found from anywhere btw other than talking to drivers of cars.
I really dislike my tyres - jc2
87% of all statistics are made up on the spur of the moment!!
I really dislike my tyres - yorkiebar
87.66% I think you will find
I really dislike my tyres - mk124
Nick and Yorkiebar I don't agree with your comments at all. I drive a P reg Clio fwd with tires that are not that good. All understeer has ever done to me is push me into a curb a few times, however I would say that was down to the fact that behaving like an idiot, driving round a bend too fast and using to much power.
The one time that I have provoked oversteer is a totally diffrent matter. The most dangerous situations in a car is when the unpredictatble happens. Understeer is something that you can provoke daily, with the right roads, and when you get it wrong you feel like a fool. Oversteer in a fwd car is not common so when it does happen you don't know what to do since you have not trained yourself for those situations. This lack of skill is very common and makes putting the good tires at the front hazzardous. BUT there is nothing intrinsically wrong with putting the best tires on front however. For a racing driver or an expert driver it makes perfect sense, for these people it will improve the safety and grip of the car in some situations (like rallying?).
I just hope that adam can make the right choice - i.e not to assume that he is an expert driver and may need a predictable handing car when he needs it most. For most people best tires at the back!
I really dislike my tyres - nick
Nick and Yorkiebar I don't agree with your comments at all.


For most people best tires at the back!

That's what I said!
I really dislike my tyres - yorkiebar
This has been discussed so many times it becomes repetitive.

I don't mind where you put your tyres. I know where I put mine but my comments about people experiencing oversteer in a fwd car still stands.

It has to be induced, it wont just happen! have been in so many different vehicle / tyre combinations to experiment and have only ever experienced sudden oversteer in a fwd car once. It was a mini on grass with a lsd fitted, and had good tyres all round. Not the normal situation for ordinary drivers!

I have never experienced it on a road even under faster driving. Have experienced understeer loads. And I have seen countless buckled wheels/punctures from others that have experienced it and been unable to cope with it.

All I ask is that now the better weather has gone, please let everyone have decent tyres on thier car, where ever they are fitted, and drive according to the conditions! Then I should be safe !
I really dislike my tyres - Adam {P}
I really think I'm better leaving them at the front; simply because, I'm not saying I'm a good driver or anything but if the fronts lose grip (and they do) I can recover it with relative ease. If the backs lose it, then the car fishtails into a lampost!

Interestingly, I've been using it over the weekend in the wet and it hasn't lost grip. Whether I'm subconsciously driving different or something's changed I don't know but I like it!

Thanks again,

Adam
I really dislike my tyres - Gazza
Only my thoughts but giving the harder nature of the S306 compare to the Michelin, I would put the S306 at the front. It will give unpredictable understeer which is a lot better than fitting S306 at the back and giving you unpredictable oversteer at the worst moments.

Also, Yokohamas S-series tyres are their "slow" tyre range whereas the A-series are the performance tyre range. Therefore, take it easy and you'll be fine for many miles (30k - 40k) with your S306 at the front wheels.
I really dislike my tyres - Pugugly {P}
Adam,
Were you driving on roads that had been dry for a long period of time and then were subjected to heavy rain ? (typical solicitor's question that).

This could have affected the way your tyres grip, especially the front ones.

 

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