New Seat Belt Regs. - Fullchat
After an article in Saturdays Telegraph I thought I'd make the effort and measuse the rugrats to see if I would need booster seats to comply with the new regulations that are soon coming into force.
I then realised that gave some thought as to how difficult the regulations are going to be to enforce.

1. In order to ascertain the age of the child then you are going to have to ask for it. Children should be interviewed with an appropriate adult who cannot be connected with the offence; so thats mum or dad out !I have not studied the legislation in detail but I bet there is no statutory requirement to provide the childs date of birth / birth certificate.

2. The child has to be over a certain height to be exempt. Now for that you will need a certified and calibrated measuring device! And what rights are there to ask a child to remove footwear to check the height when they are just over.

3. The onus is on the Police to 'prove beyond all reasonable doubt' - throw in a bit of " you dont have to say anything etc etc...." and without statutory requirements to provide the relevent details I think there is going to be a bit of a struggle to prove the offence.

Strikes me as just another piece of legislation issued by the beauracrats that will be almost impossible to inforce.
--
Fullchat
New Seat Belt Regs. - mare
Thanks, I'll try to remember points 1-3. It sounds a bit more convincing than "Argos have sold out of booster seats officer".

Actually sounded like a sensible rule to protect children, but now i'm stuck because i can't get any seats because i left it too late.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Altea Ego
This is common sense stuff.

Junior RF was in a baby seat, child seat and then on a booster seat all through his growing up years. Its one of those "he appears to be doing his best and being responsible" judgement calls for a copper, of which many are made each day. If there is an obvious failure to try, and a failure to pass the attitude test then I am sure something else can be found as a reminder.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
New Seat Belt Regs. - mare
TVM always puts into words much better than I can. I did think that being obstinate with a plod wouldn't get you very far.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Red Baron
I would hope that all of the backroom contributors would never have to use the avoidance charter as given above, and that their offspring are suitably restrained.

The avoidance charter will amuse those who wouldn't give a brass monkey anyway and clearly do not like their children very much.
New Seat Belt Regs. - caesar
For any responsible adult with children there should be no need to talk there way out of this one.
My children have and will always be the apples of my eye so the safest way for them to travel( as my knowledge allows) as always been used in my case. No need to enforce this one( i know theres always the fools) its common sense for the little ones safety.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Rebecca {P}
Judging by the numbers of unrestrained toddlers, babies on knees, adults with no seatbelts (front and back) , that you still see, I doubt it will be particularly enforced anyway. More's the pity.

It will probably be a kind of 'add-on' offence if you are stopped for something else.

Anyway, huge sigh of relief as my youngest (131cm) who saw a booster seat as a major step backwards, has not kicked off as expected, and is very happy and even proud to use it.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Cliff Pope
I keep my children carefully packed in cotton wool in special egg cartons at all times. That way they never have to find out about the horrid dangerous world outside, and are spared the trouble of having to learn about dangers and risk assessment for themselves. They grow up safe in the knowledge that a government bureaucrat is looking after them every minute of their well-regulated lives.
New Seat Belt Regs. - smokie
Excellently put Cliff. I made a similar point some years ago when someone took umbrage that mine had the freedom of the internet, without anyone checking what they were doing.

Whilst obviously their safety is important, equally important is for kids to find out sometimes for themselves, and take some responsibility for their own actions, otherwise they end up like so many of today's parents......

(Yes, I know that the seat belt thing doesn't quite match this argument but you get my drift...)
New Seat Belt Regs. - Clanger
As both Mrs H and I are called upon to give lifts to our youngest's friends, I have (after reading Saturday's Telegraph) marked the inside of the rear edge of the nearside front doors at 1.35m with marker pen. Plenty of room for error if the car is parked on camber but it should give a clue. No idea what we would do if presented with an under-height child expecting a lift, though. I will not be shelling out for a booster seat on the off-chance as our 10-year-old measures 1.4m without shoes.
Hawkeye
-----------------------------
Stranger in a strange land
New Seat Belt Regs. - turbo11
Are the regulations height and/or age related.My ever growing godson who is approaching seven years of age is very very tall.I am led to beleive he is 1.4m(which i was told is that of an average nine year old).I do not have children,child seats etc and do not intend on purchasing one for his occasional need.I will however, have him safely strapped in the back as before.
New Seat Belt Regs. - drbe
>>I will however, have him safely strapped in the back as
before.

>>

Ah well, that is debatable .

Safety is an absolute. Someone/something is either safe - absolutely safe - or not. I suggest your godson is less than ABSOLUTELY safe while seated in your motorcar and usung an adult seat belt.

There would be a greater degree of safety, if he were using a child seat (booster seat, or whatever).

Plus of course, it would seem that you are - or would be - breaking the law - does that matter?
New Seat Belt Regs. - BazzaBear {P}
I wouldn't agree that safety is absolute. It is most definitely an analogue concept. Otherwise, how is it possible for one car to be 'safer' than another?
New Seat Belt Regs. - Altea Ego
safety is never absolute. There are practical steps you can take to assess & mitigate risk, but absolute safety comes at a cost that is not affordable or practical.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
New Seat Belt Regs. - drbe
I wouldn't agree that safety is absolute. It is most definitely
an analogue concept. Otherwise, how is it possible for one car
to be 'safer' than another?


Because one car is more (or less) safe than another. It is a question of degree.

I will accept that it is not possible - or practicable - to achieve TOTAL safety in the world of motoring.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Lud
>
I will accept that it is not possible - or practicable
- to achieve TOTAL safety in the world of motoring.


Or any other world come to that. Doom, doom!
New Seat Belt Regs. - BazzaBear {P}
>>
Because one car is more (or less) safe than another. It
is a question of degree.


Exactly, so therefore it is not an absolute.
New Seat Belt Regs. - colinh
In Spain, it's children 3 to 12 and anybody less than 1.5m irrespective of age - this co-ordination of rules across the EU is useful !
New Seat Belt Regs. - Fullchat
Can I just make it clear I fully support common sense legislation that makes our roads safer to be. My point is from a proffesional point of view that legislation has to be 'fit for purpose' to make it enforcable and that loopholes will be exploited by those that maybe dont see the common sense approach. I have identified some of those glaring loopholes.
--
Fullchat
New Seat Belt Regs. - cockle {P}
No idea what we would do if presented with
an under-height child expecting a lift, though.


If a reasonably local journey, quite simple.
Call a taxi, put the under height child in the cab and ask the cab to follow you to your destination as cabs are exempt.
Apparently it would appear that your child is far safer wearing an adult belt in the back of a cab than wearing an adult belt in the back of your car!!

This also has a knock on effect in all sorts of ways, local sports clubs with youth teams are now beginning to insist that all players are now transported to games by their parents.
This has some benefit in that the clubs no longer have to have every driver CRB checked and the drivers will no longer be responsible for any child other than their own and won't have to purchase two or three extra child seats.
The draw backs are that if Mum or Dad aren't available to chaffeur then Junior doesn't get to play and eleven cars, or more for rugby, now make the journey instead of four.
To see the knock on effect of that have a look in the roads around any local park on a weekend morning....... and I don't suppose it'll ease congestion on a Saturday or Sunday morning either.
New Seat Belt Regs. - fossyant
The regulations do state that you may carry another child in the rear as a one off where a suitable booster is unavailable, or you are unable to fit any more - i.e. two boosters already, but of course seat belts must be used.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Hamsafar
Can't a child sit on a couple of pillows? In a crash, the upper body is thrown forward until limited by the seatbelt, and this makes the back of the thighs lock the pillows against the squab unless it is a very poorly designed seat. Most EU legislation is made by lobbying industries who want to make a fast buck.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Altea Ego
Can't a child sit on a couple of pillows? In a crash, the upper body is thrown forward until limited by the seatbelt, and this makes the back of the thighs lock the pillows against the squab

Nope, if a child does not have its feet on the floor the legs whiplash forwards and drag the child out from under the seat belt, Its called "submarining". Its very dangerous to sit kids on soft squashy pillows.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
New Seat Belt Regs. - drbe
The point that has not been addressed (except by me, of course ;-) ) is that the law is changing. Turbo11 hasn't come back to my point - that what he is proposing is against the law.

No matter how safe (relatively) we may think that Little Jimmy is sitting on a couple of pillows, or a couple of egg boxes, or whatever, the fact remains that we don't have a choice.

If we do not comply, we are in breach of the law.
New Seat Belt Regs. - turbo11
Coming back to your point.I shall ignore the law.I know that my godson would fit in an adult belt without submarining under neath.He would also be safer strapped in my mazda 6 than probably half of the other cars on the road.Also I am not of the type who cow tows to any jobsworth eu money grabbing nanny state rule changes.His dad agreesO our society is becoming a bunch of softies who wont take risks and who wont take responsibility for their actions.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Armitage Shanks {p}
Turbo 11, I hear what you say but are you prepared to take any sort of risk, however small, with the lives of your children, grandchildren or whover? Equally, the point made above re taxis being exempt suggests that the legislation has not been thought thru too well - it is the EU - what do you expect!?
New Seat Belt Regs. - drbe
The point is well made that taxis (hackney carriages) are exempt; private hire vehicles (minicabs, for want of better shorthand) are not exempt.

In my council area - Elmbridge, in Surrey - the same make and model of vehicle can be licensed as either a taxi or a private hire vehicle.

Stupid, illogical, not thought through or what?

I think turbo11 had it about right, with his little rant about EU legislation.
New Seat Belt Regs. - cockle {P}
The point is well made that taxis (hackney carriages) are exempt;
private hire vehicles (minicabs, for want of better shorthand) are not
exempt.
In my council area - Elmbridge, in Surrey - the same
make and model of vehicle can be licensed as either a
taxi or a private hire vehicle.


The law actually states that the exemption is for licensed taxis/private hire vehicles so the exemption will apply to the legal minicab fraternity, however a vehicle being used as a minicab but not licensed by the local council will not be.
As you say the same model is frequently seen as a taxi or a private hire vehicle, indeed in our area the only real distinction is that a private hire vehicle can't be hailed in the street, you have to order them by phone, even the fares are the same.

As others have said, those of us that look after our offspring will continue to do so and those that don't will also continue to not do so. Will probably be enforced with as much vigour and success as the mobile phone law.
New Seat Belt Regs. - drbe
>> The law actually states that the exemption is for licensed taxis/private
hire vehicles so the exemption will apply to the legal minicab
fraternity, .


I regret to say, that I think you are incorrect.

However, until I can quote you chapter and verse...............................
New Seat Belt Regs. - cockle {P}
However, until I can quote you chapter and verse...............................



Well if I'm incorrect then I only have RoSPA to blame :-)

This link seems to indicate that they think all licensed taxis and private hire vehicles have the exemption.
tinyurl.com/ooqmr

Hope that clarifies.
New Seat Belt Regs. - drbe
.Also I am
not of the type who cow tows to any jobsworth eu
money grabbing nanny state rule changes.His dad agreesO our society is
becoming a bunch of softies who wont take risks and who
wont take responsibility for their actions.


Come on, spit it out!

If you have somrthing to say - say it.
New Seat Belt Regs. - school boy
This law is completely stupid, it is impossible to tarnish all children with the same brush. We've heard about the hight regs but , seriously at 11 I would not have fitted in any child seat even if I wanted to. Children are all built differently and if these rules are for all children and presumed that every child is average than there are going to be lots of fixed penalty notices.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Bromptonaut
This law is completely stupid, it is impossible to tarnish all
children with the same brush.


Mrs Malaprop alive and well and teaching schoolboys english?
New Seat Belt Regs. - Armitage Shanks {p}
Well the law is fairly clear, I think. You either have to meet an age or height requirement and if you don't you need some sort of booster - have I got it right? I have a gigantic grandson who, at 8 years old, is already over the height limit so for me personally, no problem. I guess the people who have a problem with this may be the people who don't wear their own seatbelts and use a non handsfree mobile phone when driving as they find the law inconvenient. They will probably get away with whatever law breaking they choose unless it can be recorded on a camera - but if you get caught don't come here complaining! Dim or stupid, it is the law.
New Seat Belt Regs. - Number_Cruncher
This law is completely stupid


Well said schoolboy - I agree.

I don't see why it had to be made law. Why not simply make it government advice. Most sensible parents would heed it, and the ones who might ignore it will probably be the same ones who would break the law.

A few adverts, showing kids bodies being mangled and skewed after submarining under a belt would probably get more compliance than a few court cases being reported in an obscure corner of the local rag.

I agree that the young should be cared for and protected, but I think there are better ways of doing it than filling the statute books with un-enforceable guff like this.

Pettyfogging law like this doesn't increase anyones respect for the rule of law - it make many think the law is simply stupid.

Now, before anyone gets all judgemental, I'm a law abiding type of person, but I think that a pre-requisite for mass acceptance of, and compliance with the rule of law is that the laws themselves must be worth abiding by. Put another way, the rule of law in anything other than a totalitarian police state relies on co-operation.

As ever, No_Fm2r puts it better in another thread when he talks about where we as a society are getting it wrong when we draw lines with respect to risk, and living our lives.

Number_Cruncher
New Seat Belt Regs. - turbo11
Well put number cruncher.
New Seat Belt Regs. - school boy
I was talking about how wide they are.
New Seat Belt Regs. - daveyjp
This person thought it would never happen to them:

tinyurl.com/nnjo2

Ok the child was unrestrained, but there is a law saying they should be so how would drivers treat 'Government Guidance'?
New Seat Belt Regs. - ffidrac {P}
It's a pity I don't still have them but some years ago I had 2 'four point harnesses' (2 over the sholder straps and 2 side straps) fitted to the rear of my Datsun 120Y, then I had them moved over to my Volvo 145E estate when I changed car. Proper Britax child harness/seat belts they were.


In my opinion they were far better than booster cushions as the child(ren) were well strapped in and not so close to the roof in the event of a roll-over.

Wish I still had them today, I would gladly go to court and explain that a purpose made and fitted harness is much better than adapting something that is for adult use..................

New Seat Belt Regs. - Big Bird
I see lots of scope for (mis) interpration with regards to the get out for an occassional/emergency journey.
I plan on putting my 9 year old on a booster seat for all long journeys and whenever practical for local journeys (i.e.when the booster isn't in my wifes car somewhere else), but I fail to see how I can practically convey her friends without buying 2 or 3 more booster seats, plus another set for SWMBOs Astra - which i have no intention of doing.

I also have an au pair who drives an old fiesta without rear seats belts at all, but usually only takes them the mile or two to/from school, pool, music lessons etc - not sure what the rules for boosters will be then.

A law with good intentions but little chance of being enforced IMO

Dan

New Seat Belt Regs. - NowWheels
Does anyone know where to find a clear, concise explanation of these new rules?
New Seat Belt Regs. - Big Bird
www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/childcarseats...m

try this?

Dan
New Seat Belt Regs. - IanW1977
Jeez How did we all cope when we were Kids ?
I remember before Passenger Seatbeats were compulsory and rear seat belts were unheard of. Many a mile was spent by myself in the middle of the backseat peering over the front ! Mind you there wasn't so many mad drivers or 4 x 4's to crash into you back in the late 70's early 80s !

Nowadays though I am a parent and I'm all for safety and little Ian will be in a car seat/booster seat always.


New Seat Belt Regs. - NowWheels
Thanks, Dan! That's a very useful site.

I regularly carry two ten-year-old boys in my car, so I'd better measure them and see if I need to start using a booster seat for them. Bit of a nuisance if I do, it's another piece of car-clutter.

I'm afraid that this is like the adult seatbelt laws: more nannying legislation, designed solely to protect people from themselves :(
New Seat Belt Regs. - Bromptonaut
The rules and associated guidance are pretty clear both about the exceptions for short journeys and the rules in cars without belts. I guess we're going to see more kids carrying booster seats with them when they go out and about. IIRC the effect of the rules is to bar under threes from riding in cars that have no belts - but surely any such vehicle will be over 20yrs old.

I think most kids are going to hit 135cm well before age 12. Bromp junior is just about smallest in his year and scrapes through at 11yrs 10 mths; some of his mates are nearly as big as me!
New Seat Belt Regs. - PW
Mare- in case you're still looking for a seat try this link www.kiddicare.com/page/navpage?N=365 . Just bought a high back one in there and a lot cheaper than anywhere else.

Hope this helps.
New Seat Belt Regs. - mare
Thanks PW, all i wanted was a booster for nr 1 for each car, Argos had them at £8.99 but of course have sold out. Kiddicare seem to do seats only, which nr 1 will definitely perceive as a backward step (streetwise 7 year olds eh?). I'll keep looking but thanks for the thought.

When I was a lad etc etc, I used to slide around the rear seat of a Mk3 Cortina. Vinyl seats too!
New Seat Belt Regs. - Cliff Pope
The rules don't make any allowance for the fact that some seatbelts are already adjustable for different heights of passenger. The upper mounting points on my rear seats attach to a pair of vertical rods spanning the rear window (estate). The attachment point can be lowered right down to the top of the seat for children or small adults, or up to the roof for giants. Putting in a booster seat merely replicates the adjustment already available.
 

Ask Honest John

Value my car