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Manufacturers in Germany have to be careful when they introduce new cars in Germany-people must be seen with the latest car.People will buy a car only to sell it weeks later in some other maker brings out a newer one-they would even get rid of a DB to buy a Ford.A buyer for the German government was sacked because she change a fleet of newly-purchased DB within a week for a later model-tho' she had support from within the government,it got into the papers.Incidentally DB and BMW can be ordered with plain boot lids but it costs more.It works both ways-people with bottom of the range want you to think they've got a better one than they have as well as the other way.Germans also have a thing about alloy wheels-the larger the wheel,the thinner the rubber,the thinner the spoke the better.
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My original post wasn't meant to be a dig at any particular manufacturer Caesar. Granted, I was suckered into the VW image thing and they let me down big style but that's why I used them as the best example. Even the car mags talk about VW's "perceived image" but that image seems to me to be a peculiarly British thing because it doesn't exist elsewhere in Europe - everyone else sees VW as a bog standard make like Opel, Ford, Fiat and the rest.
My point was that I was simply refreshed by the Italians' seeming lack of interest in the badge on their bonnet. Maybe it's their culture - they'd rather spend their money on looking stylish and gorgeous (as the women all seemed to be). The wife never ceased telling me that the men were also gorgeous. Particularly Franco, one of the waiters in a bar we frequented (had to frequent).
Bet she wouldn't be so impressed if he turned up in a 15 year old Fiat Uno!!!!!!!
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Well maybe thats where akr and types are going wrong, your looking to impress others rather than satisfying yourselves.
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That's where you've totally missed the point Doz. Maybe I was looking to impress when I bought my VWs but now I buy Vauxhalls because I've found them to be more reliable and far better value. I'm hardly looking to impress though am I? Vauxhall get slated in this country in terms of image because of the snobbery that's endemic in our society. That was the whole point of the post - why are we so snobbish when other countries aren't?
If it makes you feel better I'd still dearly love a Golf GTi but the same two problems are evident - it's overpriced and will probably break. Thus I won't bother. As long as the image thing still applies they'll still sell shed loads though so I'm sure they won't be bothered by my disaffection.
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It's down to our class based system, which despite 9 years of an ex-socialist spin that we are a classless soceity are still riddled by aspiration, class awareness. Jealousy, love it or loath it our European partners have evolved quicker than us (usually by force of arms - sadly) so an image concious Italian isn't bothered to ride moped to his/her bar. Fifteen year old Unos are like hen's teeth here simply because they couldn't be made to deal with our climate !
The German love affair with VWs/BMWs/Mercs are due to the fact that they are home grown cars = nothing else and Post War West Germany was a far more egalltarian soceity than it's pre-war predecesor. Arguably thre reason for n*** Germany's military success was due to Class system (Prussian Generals anyone ?) - this was shattered after the war with huge tracts of hereditry lands ending up in the East - we felt victorious post war and automatically thought that the Austin Somerset was in some way superiour to all that foreign tat.
I buy a BMW cos I like them. If I fell out of love with the brand I would by a German designed Belgian made Mondeo.
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I've had two Jettas and the current Bora over the past 14 years (going on 15) and all have proved virtually 100 per cent reliable during the period they were in my ownership.
All were acquired secondhand and the minimum mileage on acquisition was 66,500 miles for the first Jetta, 52,000 for the second and 46,000 for the Bora.
Any problems have been extremely minor and rare - as far as I am concerned I know I always been able to jump into any one of the cars and drive to whichever part of the UK I wanted/wish without qualms.
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I think it's because in the UK, the masses watch far too much commercial television (maybe it's the weather and urban overcrowding?) and adverts are allowed to be plastered on every spare surface and space, even taxis, buses, trams, bus shelters, phone boxes etc....
It's surprising how many people rely on adverts for their sense of reality.
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>>Well maybe thats where akr and types are going wrong, your looking to impress others rather than satisfying yourselves.<<
Wrong again Dox - if I wanted to impress others I would have bought the 3 series or the Golf GTI that I like so much. I bought my car based on reliability and engineering inetgrity.
The reason I mentioned VW here is that the VAG empire are masters at creating an image.
The make 1 type of car and then badge it as a Golf, A3, Octavia, Leon for example.
If people who drive Golfs are not image conscious (poor spelling) why did they not buy the Skoda which is exactly the same car ?????????
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I bought my Golf when only VWs had PD engines, the octavias seats were unsupportive, the Octavia would'nt fit into my garage and I thought the VWs residuals would be better. Deffinetly not because I look good in it.
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OK - good and fair point but getting back to the subject of image - do you agree that when a brand spreads similar products across a number of price sectors it is only image and people's desire to look good that enables them to charge the higher prices. i.e. Crossfire Vs Slk - there didn't mention VW once - oh damn.
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Since i have worked in the trade for what must be 9 years now, since I was a teen infact, I think that I started to see beyond the badge, so perhaps those of us in the trade see cars for what they really are more so than 'joe public' who dont experience hundreds of different cars each year?
Build quality, in general, just doesnt seem as solid to me as it used to be. My first car was a MK2 VW Polo. It was one of those cars that was not designed for style, but for function and it felt bullet proof, but as the years have gone on, newer Polos seem to have lost that feeling.
The same goes for small Mercs. I clean on a regular basis two Mercedes. One is an L-Reg 190E and the other is an ML270 CDi and how scary is it that the ML's interior is more worn than the 120k 190 at only two years old? They only use it to go to church on sundays and the occasional long trip. The 190 has been doing the school run and general workhorse role since they bought it new.
I mourned the passing of the old Merc quality and engineering and now see them as overpriced Chryslers, not an image Id covet myself.
I dont think french cars have much of an image as such, but they are plentiful and the smaller ones make sense for younger drivers especially, so perhaps they carry more image with younger rather than older drivers?
I think the 'class system' of the way we buy cars is changing now as VW is telling us how cheap their Golf is now, BMW and Mercedes have given up on being premium brands to persue the fleet market and now one of the most classy and intelligent choices you can make for a luxury car, is a rebadged Toyota, albeit and excellent one.
Image with cars isnt quite what it was and cars like Subaru and Toyota are creeping up there because a car of high class shouldnt be riddled with faults like so many new cars are these days - just looking at how well Toyota are doing financially tells you all you need to know about what the global market wants - its Toyotas all the way because first and foremost, you buy a car new, because you dont want the problems associated with older cars.
Toyota created Lexus out of thin air - pretty darned clever I say - and to me, Rolls-Royce and Bentley aside, Lexus is the classiest make you can buy now.
I think people are wising up to the marketing as buyers become more aware of reliability and poor dealer service, which can blight any ownership experience, whatever the badge on the bonnet.
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I think stu has said it all in a nutshell.
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Its an excellent and balance post from a motortrade insider ;-)
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Fundamentally, all modern cars can fulfil their role as a means of travelling from A to B. Compared with cars only 20 years ago, even the most unreliable modern car on the roads in a paragon of reliabilty.
In most cases, there isn't much to choose between the manufacturers today - For example, in the 80's Lada engines going bang at 40 - 50,000 miles weren't uncommon, when most cars were beginning to take 100,000 and more in their stride.
There are some makes of car where the engineering is a cut above. For example, despite only having worked on a few Porches, I remain hugely impressed by the cleverness and quality of their engineering design. For most cars, however, there isn't a great deal to choose between them on engineering terms. Four cylinder OHC multivalve engines driving the front wheels of a relaitvely stiff box. The differences are in the geeky detail, and for most people are largely irrelevant. There are the odd problem - K series head gaskets spring to mind, but in the main, these Euroboxes just work OK.
So, manufacturers attempt to distinguish their bland and uniform offerings in terms of style and marketing. Being thick and unimaginitive, we all fall for it. Fair play to the Italians for ignoring the manufacturer's advertising and putting the living of a good life ahead of paying too much for a rusting heap of metal.
Of course, marketing cars on the basis of driving experience is effectively flattering us. After a short period of naivety, I stopped allowing customers to drive me around in their cars to and from the garage - most of them were lethal! I can't beieve that many of the people who buy cars based on how long Clarkson can drift them round corners can really feel the difference in handling.
I've seen a few cases of nice new car on the drive, and economy bread in the larder. That some people put a piece of metal above other more interactive aspects of life is, to me at least, sad.
Having said all of this, I think that the enthusiasts who visit sites like this are a little different, a little more likely to be advanced drivers, a little more likely to understand the difference between the technologies on offer. Please read my post as being directed towards the hoardes of the ignorant, rather than towards the cognoscenti.
Number_Cruncher
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I take your point about who your thread is directed at but do think it wrong to suggest that there is not alot to choose between different makes.
There is no doubt that the overall level of quality and reliability is improving but makers still differentiate themselves with products and in particular their application of engineering in the final product.
The people I know have been employed by Rover, Honda, BMW and Ford - all part of the Rover and Land Rover ownership battle, inform me of the huge differences in how they design and produce their cars differently.
It must have been very stressful for Rover engineers trying to adapt to the different owners.
Carlos Goshn at his time with Michelin and dealing with the Japanese big 3 also identifies big differences (Toyota, Honda and Nissan).
Ford are adoting alot of design and practice from Mazda at the moment to become more reliabile and competitive.
Your correct to suggest that Joe Public does not much care or understand though. There only measure is the customer sat surveys.
If all cars were the same the reliability, durability, and performance would all be the same.
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>>ts an excellent and balance post from a motortrade insider ;-)>>
One of my mates, who I encouraged to go Mercedes in the early 1990s, had a succession of brand new S-Class models both petrol and diesel, whilst his wife has had the C-class models for when she needed to drive herself and the main car was not available.
Over the years even the S-class models, superb though they are, have proved less and less reliable from the point of view of annoying but comparatively minor faults.
As a result the last Mercedes owned - a long wheelbase S-class - after its two year stint gave way to a brand new Bentley late last year.
It's been all quiet on the problem front since then...:-)
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