Carrow: try inputting your VIN into this site: www.autoinsurancetips.com/vin_number.htm
I'm sure there was another one, if this fails because the issue of source came up here a few months ago.
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An American site and does not work for some European cars.
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Your vehicle should have an "EEC Certificate of Conformity" in the documentation pack.
If it's not there, request it from Nissan, through your dealer. Every new vehicle, since the early '90s, which is built in the EC or imported into the EC (excluding personal imports from outside the EC) is required to have such a certificate available.
The place & date of that document will approximate to the place & date of production.
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I have now had a look round the vehicle. I have taken out all 4 ashtrays (there appear to be product codes stamped on them but nothing else).. I have removed the fascia of the radio/cd (nothing). I have had a look under the bonnet at the battery (nothing) and nothing in the cubby holders. To be honest, there are not that many nooks & crannies in a pickup.
I have also had a look inside my product documentation and do not have an EEC certificate of conformity. Is it possible that someone has stripped all this out of the vehicle or do commercial vehicles just not have date stamps. No replies from Nissan but it is now the weekend
As time goes no I feel more suspicious. Surely they would disclose the data unless they had something to hide.
Many Thanks again
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BMW's are date stamped on the front suspension pillars. Also try the wiring loom (where visible) all my recent cars have been tagged with dates of manufacture on these..(poor English =)
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Many manufacturers have taken all date code info out of their VIN;you have to go back to the dealer/manufacturer to get the info;Mercedes & Opel/Vauxhall and others still show year of manufacture as part of the VIN-Ford and a few others show not only year but month of build in their VIN.
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I have (after some pestering) had feedback from Nissan UK. They confirm that the vehicle that I received on 21 December 2004 left the factory on 7 August 2004. They have not given me a country of origin of the vehicle and they have not given me details of how and where it was stored.
My questions are:-
1 Is the vehicle still "new"? Technically speaking it could have been registered as 04 not 54.
2 The storage and origin details are surely still relevant given the problems with the paint?
All help and suggestions much appreciated
Many thanks
GAN
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Have you had the required EC Certificate of Conformity yet?
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Yes requested not yet received
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Nothing surprising there then! How long has it been, bearing in mind it is meant to be supplied with the vehicle?
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I spoke to the dealer yesterday. He said that he had a feeling there would not be a dedicated COC, that it would be more likely that there is one general COC for each class of vehicle e,g. Micra, Almera etc. He said he would investigate further then revert back.
Looking at my records, I ordered the vehicle on 30/08/04 for delivery on 21/12/04 and was given the impression that this was the right thing to do becasue there was a lead time of approx three months. In truth though the vehicle had already left the factory. on 07/08/04 and was now to be stored for three months. Have I been misled? The storage of this vehicle is now surely a big question given the number of corrosion issues in a short period of time?
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Given that most of the problems seem to revolve around rust, is it possible that this vehicle spent a while on a dock somewhere being sprayed with salt water? Unfortunately, I don't know how you could prove this.
V
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v - It could be. I also asked the dealer to start looking from his end, having now explained that the vehicle was already made when I ordered it and was given a three month lead time
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Depending on where it was built, 3 months from factory to customer might seem reasonable. I agree that everything else you are suffering is UNreasonable!
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Gasp! - still in shock. I have heard back from Nissan UK (not the dealer) and they need the following to supply me with an EEC Certificate of Conformity
? Copies of proof of ownership document.
This can be a copy of Registration Documents, sales history etc. Please ensure that only copies of these documents are sent, as we cannot accept responsibility for the safe- keeping of such items.
? Photograph of the VIN plate
The VIN Plate is an engraved metal plate approx. 6X8 cm in size, located in the engine compartment (or cabin area if LCV). The photo must show clearly all the details written on the plate for the application to be processed. (Please note that the VIN Plate is not the license plate)
? Cheque for £111.63 made payable to Nissan Motor (GB) Limited.
The cost for this service is £95.00 plus VAT (£111.63) per certificate. Only cheques are acceptable.
They are surely having a laugh?
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If you just want production date then look for date stamps on components - favourites are glass (you have to know how to decode), air-con rubber pipes, radiator etc. There WILL be lots of codes on your vehicle, its just matter of looking. If it has a 17-digit VIN then its an EU-market vehicle (not an import from another market). JDM and Asian market vehicles have a shorter VIN.
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I honestly think they have got something to hide. The odd time I have imported a car, by buying it and using it abroad and then bringing it in as a personal import, I have had a Certificate of Conformity. It is part of the 'package' you are buying, like the owners handbook, the jack wheelbrace and spare tyre and the receipt for the money paid, IMHO You own this vehicle and must be entitled to have fee free access to any information that you reasonably require about it. That said I don't know what the way forward is but I do think you are being given the run-around for asking quite reasonable questions.
Why not drop into another Nissan dealer, express interest in a vehicle and ask when it was built? I bet they won't want £100+ to tell you.
The date stamps on plastic things in the car are worth a look. My French Built car, delivered in June 04 has date stamps for Feb and Mar on the 2 ashtrays and although I can't de-code the glass I have reason to think, from looking at the numbers, that the glass in from month 4 ie April
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Gan,
I think you are getting what's called the run around!
Time to have a word with Trading Standards, perhaps?
In your first post you say that the dealer couldn't supply the required information due to the Data Protection Act. Nissan are now saying that they can, after all, supply it but at a cost of £111.
As I recall, if you request information from a company which is supplied under the Data Protection Act, there is a maximum fee specified. This fee used to be £10, though it might have increased since, but I'm quite sure it's nothing like £111.
If you are willing to pay this fee, which I'm sure someone else will come along and confirm the amount, you could write to Nissan and / or the dealer and ask for this info under the conditions set out in the DPA.
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the reason for all this is so you are not trying to clone an import,although i do agree it is very wrong when mandy could fax you a copy in a minute.......
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Yes I am been given the runaround.
Having asked him over the course of several emails if I am suffering abnormal and premature rust. The reply from Nissan UK finally in the last email was "With regards to ?normal? rusting expected at various vehicle ages I cannot provide an answer to this question since it is based on numerous factors and variables.". I have given him a history of the vehicle, its usage and condition and asked him what the factors were. I also pointed out that if he was not in a position to reply then he should hand the issue on to someone who was qualified to reply. The whole thing is a complete pain. I have been writing emails with roughly the same content for the last three months.
Nissan UK have ceased quoting the Data Protection Act as a reason for not giving information. This happened after I asked them to quote the clauses from the Act and their interpretation of them.
I have asked both Nissan Uk and the dealer for a COC. The dealer did not believe that there would be one just one for the class of vehicle. Nissan UK asked me to prove who I was and pay £112. I have asked them now to waive the charge on account of all the lost and wasted time writing emails that do not get proper replies.
I have also asked the following:-
1 When did the vehicle leave the production cycle. It may have left the factory on 7 August 2004 but when did it roll off the assembly line and was it stored before it left the factory? If so in what conditions?
2 Where was it stored and in what conditions between 7 August 2004 and 30 November 2004 when it reached the dealer.
I have also requested that the whole thing is handed on to the "customer care" person's manager / supervisor as I do not believe the current one is either sufficiently competent or sincere to answer the questions raised.
Does anyone know where I would find the name of whoever is in charge overall of Customer Care at Nissan UK. I believe if someone in authority saw the nonsense I am dealing with, then my current customer care person would hit disciplinary proceedings for certain - and well deserved too........
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Gan,
Glad you're sticking to your guns...if more of us were to do so (and i'm as guilty as any when it gets to the 'too difficult pile'), then perhaps we'd recieve better customer service in the first place.
The initial Data Protection Act quote was pure piffle and designed to make you go away, 'cos unsurprisingly most people would have no idea. The DPA is designed to prevent individuals having data disclosed about them in an unauthorised fashion. If you are that individual then they can tell you anything you want them to (as long as they have satisfied themselves that you are who you say you are, which isn't that difficult).
When you think how much money you've paid them, then a bit of decent service wouldn't go amiss really would it. Unbelievable.
Good Luck
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Companies often quote the DPA (and also H&S) when they don't want to do something.
To be honest though, I think you are on the wrong track with your paint problem. The kind of delay you are talking about (between production and delivery) is actually quite short. I know that many cars are manufactured 3-6 months before registration date and I've seen Ford Mondeos which have been produced over a year prior to their registration!
You paintwork problem is more likely down to poor procedure at the factory (poor metal preparation). My advice would be to spend £100-200 with a paint technology consultant or corrosion expert and get a short report on the problem. Then present this to Nissan.
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I got a reply back from Nissan UK - this time from a manager. I sent the 12 pages of emails to date (with covering letter) by Special Delivery for the attention of Head of Customer Services, marking it "Strictly Private and Confidential" and "Eyes only"..
The history is quite informative and to be honest I now agree with Aprilia that it is a dead end:-
"You ordered your vehicle on the 31 August, due to the popularity of this model and colour Nissan Motor (GB) Ltd had already ordered this build therefore a completed vehicle was assigned to you on the 31 August. As you know the vehicle came off the production line on the 7 August, this would have then been stored in the factory compound in Japan. It then left the factory in Japan by boat and arrived in the UK on the 6 October and was ready on the 8 October. As the dealership had requested a delivery date of the 01 December your vehicle was held at our compound in Sunderland. It then left on the 25 November and arrived with your selling dealership on the 1 December as requested. "
They refuse to move on the COC and I have to confess I am not really willing to spend £112 getting one.
The issue that is still "live" is the volume of warranty claims in the first eighteen months. This was not properly answered. The reply is below and vague
"I would like to assure you that if there was an issue with the way in which Nissan Motor (GB) store and transport our vehicles, which could cause premature aging we would have noticed this trend well before now. Which leads me on to a question you posed is it normal for vehicles to rust to this level, at this age? There is no known concern regarding this model which would suggest that these vehicles rust prematurely. It is also difficult to quantify normal as a vehicles use or environment is never identical to that of another. "
I have now written back (again!!!!) asking then to compare the number of warranty claims I have had against the mean number of the model in the first eighteen months (they must have these stats). I have pointed out that if there is a low number (from what they are saying between zero and one on average), then the volume of the claims I have indicate that there is a long term issue .
I think I am starting tio get somewhere (maybe)
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I personally feel you should be tackling the supplying dealer rather than Nissan UK. It was the dealer who sold you the vehicle, so they are who are responsible in the legal sense.
You should find out what a similar one would cost you from a forecourt. You the approach your dealer and mention the Sale of Goods Act, as the vehicle is not fit for purpose as it keeps rusting. Try and see if they will trade it in for another one, possibly with a small cash adjustment.
If they do not start listening to your complaints then you will have to return the vehicle to them (so you cannot use it) and sue them for it's current value. By suing for current value you are showing you are prepared to pay for your use of the vehicle and are being "reasonable". You should be able to sue for the hire of a replacement vehicle as an extra to keep you mobile. Any dealer should want to try and avoid a legal action of this sort as it is going to cost them dear, naturally there might be a small risk of not winning (but based upon what you have stated, unlikely).
As mentioned earlier in the thread it is most likely it is a manufacturing fault causing the rusting. If the rust is such a problem then you should really get rid of the vehicle now before it becomes an even larger problem.
Hope this comment helps you decide on the right course of action.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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Thanks Roger
Yes i have been thinking about the SOGA and I know this can be relevant for a reasonable period after purchase. I was trying to establish facts and this has now taken in excess of three months.
Returning the vehicle is an option but I think more one I wish to use for negotiation. When we bought the vehicle, we intended to keep the vehicle a long time. We really like the vehicle (apart from the rust) and it is really great for the business and location. We are not really in a position now to buy another new one, which means px on another similar model (which may have the same or other problems). The vehicle is very well kept and I have been told by the Sales manager at the dealer that he could sell it easily. However morally it is a dilemma, is it really fair to inflict the same problem on someone else, which is basically what would happen.
What I am asking for at this stage is an extended warranty - ideally for normal life of vehicle or normal life until it would be usual to show rust. This is hard to define. My wife bought a three year old Golf GTI in 1985 and we kept it until 2001 (when it was sixteen). And there were a few bits and pieces of corrossion at that point, probably from age 13/14.
Would this not be the most equitable result - corrossion at normal point in life of vehicle. I get what I paid for but hard to define
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>>morally it is a dilemma, is it really fair to inflict the same problem on someone else, which is basically what would happen.
You sound too honest, most people change vehicles if something is going wrong, so they do not have to pay. Why should you be any different.
I doubt if they will give you any extended warranty. Does the vehicle have an anti perforation guarantee? If so how long does it cover you for?
Is there a website dedicated to these vehicles, if so try asking if others have had similar problems. The same applies if you see another driver, the more knowledge about the problem you can find out can only help you. It might be worth phoning a number of other dealers and seeing if they have had any problems.
Personally I would push for an exchange, preferably without any money changing hands. Maybe get a slightly newer version. At least you know what to look for.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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Does the vehicle not already have a warranty for rust proofing? I would imagine that no company is going to warrant beyond this voluntarily. After all they have arrived at a particular length for which they ordinarily would expect to cover repairs and also one imagines this is based on assumptions as to how fast a vehicle normally deteriorates given current paint/preservation techniques at the factory.
To be honest I don't think they will budge on warranty. Either deal with the selling dealer under the SOGA plus some good will or just accept that your vehicle will rust. Certainly as you have effectively bought a commercial vehicle I would imagine it is not built quite the same way as a private car - generally commercial vehicles have shorter lives than cars...alot of firms ditch commercial vehicles at maybe 4 years and scrap them at maybe 8-10years. So expecting a warranty to last to 14 years seems a bit much. I've seen plenty of vans about with rust on them within 5 years.
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The vehicle does have a standard warranty. To be honest, I do not know what the standard life of a commercial vehicle should be. I certainly am not lookingt at more than I paid for. The history of the warranty repair s to date happened between 2 and 17 months. Given the standards expected in manufacture these days and the narrowing of the gap between pickups and say SUV's, it seems to both early and in a higher volume of warranty repairs for rust and corrossion than I would expect (but I am no expert). The other issue, is that our business is a Guest House and the vehicle is unquestionably taking less of a beating than if we were a farm, firm of builders or landscape gardeners. Pickups are meant to be very strong vehicles. It was interesting that Top Gear adopted an old Hilux to test its indestructability - yes I know I should have bought a Hilux.
One of my repeated questions to Nissan is "Is it normal that the vehicle is rusting to this level at this age." The relevance of the question is to me that they have refused to answer it to date. Answers so far have been:-
1 "With regards to ?normal? rusting expected at various vehicle ages I cannot provide an answer to this question since it is based on numerous factors and variables."
2 "Which leads me on to a question you posed is it normal for vehicles to rust to this level, at this age? There is no known concern regarding this model which would suggest that these vehicles rust prematurely. It is also difficult to quantify normal as a vehicles use or environment is never identical to that of another. "
Surely the answer to the question would have to be "yes it is normal for the vehicle to rust to this level at this age". The fact that they have not said this must indicate that it is abnormal to have this level of premature rusting, but they do not want to answer the question and to not want to make further guarantees.
It is the only conclusion that I can come to
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I suspect they never want to admit whatever knowledge they have of whether the rusting is normal or abnormal as anything they say could be used by a smart lawyer to argue for compensation on your behalf.
Have you thought of getting an independent engineers report or viewpoint - perhaps examining the level of rustproofing etc. Out of interest was your vehicle manufactured in Japan then? I thought they were built in Spain.
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The vehicle is from Japan but has a 17 digit VIN, which I believe means it meant for the EU market. I did not know that they were meant to be built in Spain. Where can I find out.
I am cautious about investing additional funds in reports etc unless I have some certainty they will make a difference and it will be accepted.
Whilst not motoring related, I once commissioned a surveyors report, to demonstrate that a neighbour had built an extension overhanging my garden airspace. This report was rejected by my neighbour and he wrote back saying that he did not accept the finding. This despite the fact there was a photograph of spirit level on the boundary fence, which was visually underneath the eaves of the extension. One thing I learnt over the incident was that you can spend a lot of money on professionals (I was £5k in lawyers fees as well) and not get very far. If people want to be intransigent and ignore things, they can go quite along way along this path before the law pulls them back.
Nissan have been pretty intransigent so far, I could probaly invest in reports that may not be accepted because they will decide not to recognise the methodology been used or qualifications of the person doing the testing or the relevance of the report,. They probably have a lot more legal clout than I.
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I'd be surprised they can make money assembling them in Japan and not a lower cost location. They are not exactly the most sophisticated design - so are cheap to build with less skilled labour.
Found the following articles that definitely mentions that Navara pick up models being assembled in Spain. Whether it is all of them worldwide or just LHD ones I don't know. But the british articles seem to mention the same as the overseas ones which you'd think would mean it is all the Navaras as otherwise some PR girly would be on the phone to get it corrected.
www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=146572
www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=138834
www.motorbar.co.uk/navaraaventura.htm
www.ae-plus.com/Key%20topics/cc-Nissan-news7.htm
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To be honest in general I've noticed that many supposedly informed sales reps do not know the intracacies of the manufacturing arrangements of their parent companies...or for makes which are trading on a made in japan/germany brand are told to be not forthcoming on exactly where their vehicles are assembled. Eg bet Honda dealers keep quiet about the Chinese origin of the Jazz, Toyota dealers not telling people the Yaris comes from France or the Corolla Verso from Turkey or Merc/BMW/VW not mentioning the main RHD source of some of their vehs is low cost South Africa.
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Explanation is on article, my pickup is previous generation, registered Dec 2004, the first Navara Pickup on your article is May 2005. Hence the factory production did not exist when this was being shipped in October 2004.
I did a search on google under Navara and rust this afternoon and apparently the models for the Japanese market would rust badly in the UK because they are not protected from road salt. However my note from the Customer Services manager said:-
"Your vehicle was commissioned by Nissan Motor (GB) Ltd and was built for the UK market.."
It is one of the few unambiguous replies to date.
The only other thing I was thinking is that I remember one version of the Mercedes E Class had a huge propensity to rust because apparently of some kind of problem in the galvanising of the steel, but one of the points in the same email would seem to contradict this.
"There is no known concern regarding this model which would suggest that these vehicles rust prematurely."
Thanks for the help
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