Three months ago my girlfriend bought a Rover 216 T-reg 1.6 from an independent car dealer with 70k on the clock. We didn't notice any problems with car at all until we drove to a friend's house. He said he'd had lots of Rovers and said the engine sounded like a bag of spanners and "on the way out". She has done 1,000 miles since she bought it.
Booked it into a good local garage and they said the engine was terrible and needs a rebuild at a cost of around £800 quid. I've booked it into a Rover-approved dealership for them to give me a quote on it as well, and a more detailed explanation on what's wrong.
Assuming it's something serious that would cost a lot to repair, what recourse do I have under the law, specifically the Sales of Goods Act? I've contacted the garage who sold it and they flatly refused to have anything to do with it, saying it was my problem. When I quoted the Sales of Goods Act, they hung up on me.
I have no idea about how to proceed and any help by you folks would be greatly appreciated.
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The minimum parts and labour guarantee on a used vehicle is three months so it could be worth checking pronto exactly when the car was acquired.
If there are serious problems then you can raise it with the garage from where it was bought, perhaps using a solicitor to write to the owner or dealer principal outlining the case using the facts already known for the moment.
It is possible to have an initial free half-hour consultation with a solicitor - check with those locally.
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The minimum parts and labour guarantee on a used vehicle is three months
>>
stuartli: where do you get that from?
nixxy:
1. read up
www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/cars.htm
where the consumer returns the goods in the first six months from the date of sale and requests a repair or replacement or a partial refund. In that case, the consumer does not have to prove the goods were faulty at the time of sale. It is assumed that they were. If the retailer does not agree, it is for the retailer to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale.
Any legal proceedings to enforce a claim must be started within 6 years of the date of sale.
2. and then pay a visit to your local trading standards for more help if you do not understand that law.
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Dear Nixxy
Apologies in advance for the predictable reply but it would probably be easier/cheaper/quicker to go for a new girlfriend. She may well be gorgeous and her father owns a brewery but a T reg 216! oh Puh-leeze. Sorry I cant be more construcive about the car problem. Keep us updated?
Papho
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It's been the minimum basic warranty for as long as I can remember..:-)
See:
tinyurl.com/ns64l (about half way down)
and
tinyurl.com/rv4f5
for one
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5 hours of a solicitor's time will cost you the same as the rebuild (first quote) so don't go into this too quickly - apart from chasing things up before the 3 month warranty expires. That said, was it a heap when you bought it and neither you nor your GF noticed until it was pointed out to you or was it OK and then went wrong?
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stuartli - you are being disingenous, aren't you?
your links refer to warranty that is bought, not to the " minimum parts and labour guarantee" you referred to in the first post.
the statutory rights i have pointed to refer to a six month period.
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>>stuartli - you are being disingenous, aren't you?>>
Most certainly not and I'm surprised at the inference.
As long as I can recall - and I go back a great number of years - the minimum parts and labour guarantee on used cars has been three months.
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Nixxy,
Get a WRITTEN report from the Rover dealer about whats wrong.
Send report plus request that either the garage agree to do the work to rectify faults to be followed by an independent inspection or a cheque to the value of the works that needs to be done or return of the vehicle for a full refund within 30 days (recorded delivery) or you will sue them in Small Claims Court.
They will ignore you as most people drop it. Download the forms from the net and file the claim.
We can advise you further after you've filed the claim (in your girlfriends name obviously).
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In the 1000 miles she has had it how often has she checked the oil and water? The garage will argue that unless it was checked regularly then that will be the source of subsequent noises.
The fact they hung up on you after you mentioned sales of goods doesn't bode well. If they won't talk on the phone then it is recorded delivery time to the sales manager setting out what is wrong with the car and what you want them to do.
I'd talk to your local trading standards after getting quotes for work and likely causes of noises. Hopefully they will all be pre existing conditions and the dealer will have to sort something out.
You also have to decide what you want from this. A fully rebuilt engine is likely to lead to mentions of betterment so you may not get 100% of the repair cost. The garage could offer what you paid for the car minus the added owner and 1000 added miles. You could at least go and get a decent car if they do that. If the head gasket failing is the cause of the noises then oil and water checks are critical. The garage may argue that rover head gaskets are known weak points and that a car of that age will have a ropey one and any reasonable person would have known that. It just depends on how difficult they want to be.
teabelly
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What you haven't said, Nixxy, is whether the car sounded or now sounds to you like a bag of spanners. Does it still go all right? Have a lot of new noises appeared? Are emergency signals flashing up on the dashboard? Is it doing anything like coughing, making clouds of smoke, going very badly, overheating, using too much oil, water or petrol? Are these people just having you on?
I have to say from the information given that you sound a bit helpless. A swift Sale of Goods Act/small claims court operation might possibly be your way out. But I should avoid cheap cars if I were you.
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The AA/RAC are good at helping with things like this - even if you're not a member they will do a basic check and report on the engine condition for around £100 and this is likely to be accepted by a Small Claims Court IME.
Send one Rec. Del. letter to the dealer explaining the situation (with a copy of the report) and ask for rectification work to be done. Give them seven working days to respond (with a threat of small claims).
If they don't respond then don't mess about - file a claim with Moneyclaim online
( www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp ).
Don't on any account get involved with solicitors (don't get sucked in by the 'free half hour' come-on) - they will skin you alive and it'll work out cheaper to get a new car!
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Thank you all for your help. I'm going to speak to the Rover garage about getting a written report about the state of the car and what needs to be done, and whether it's possible the problems were present at the time of purchase.
I must admit that I had never heard the clackering noises until they were pointed out but I rarely went in the car. When I listened outside the car, I could hear the noises. She first heard the noises within the first few weeks of ownership. Apparantley it sounded like "Like a playing card rubbing against the spokes of a bike" (!!)
She had no reason to suspect that this was due to any problem with the car as the sales man said the car had a full service and MOT, and she had no reason to disbelieve him.
I spoke to my girlfriend about the problems and here's her list:
* Severe drifting to the left
* intermittent fault with the throtle staying open even when foot is off the accelerator. To solve the problem, she had to take it out of gear, rev the engine and then put it back in gear.
* Clacking noises (see above)
* Very light 'loose' power steering.
* Squeeking from the front wheels when driving and braking
* Squeeking from the front wheels when turning a corner.
Her temp was always normal. Oil was checked regularly, as was water. She got 37-40 MPG.
Once again, many thanks for all your help.
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Oh my lord.
Drifting to the left. Alignment problem. Severe! Could be a twisted chassis from crash damage.
Intermittent fault with the throttle. Well... could be just the cable needs greasing but whatever it is THE THROTTLE STICKING OPEN!
You know about the design fault on the brake pads with the 216 right? Pads are not pinioned they flout in an enclosure. When they get too thin you put your foot on the brake and they shoot out the back of the car.
If you care for this girl get this damned car checked before she drives it again.
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"full service and MOT"
Means nothing I'm afraid. Full service to a garage means "changed the oil", MOT proves roadworthyness but not mechanical integrity.
If you get nowhere with the dealer or the small claims court then I'd suggest scrapping the car, putting it down to experience and getting an AA/RAC check next time, as said above.
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Excuse me asking but having had a recent experience with a car which cost nearly as much to fix as it was worth, how does an £800 repair bill relate to the price paid for this 'T' reg Rover 216? I appreciate that you want recompense but I would have thought car back to dealer and money back to you is a better way forward than throwing anyone's money at the 'Bag of Spanners'. Naturally, I wish you a good outcome, whichever route you go down!
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interestingly not one post on the side of the seller?
the car may have been a trade sale sold as seen ?
it might have been £695? it certainly would be at my place and i would have to kick the dog out before the "test run"
lets here both sides eh?
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Must take issue with you there om: several posts including my earlier one have asked worriedly for more details of how the car has been treated and whether the OP had noticed anything amiss at any stage... this is not exactly pro-seller but is certainly questioning the buyer.
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Hang on oldman. Regardless of the circumstances, the trader still had a duty to ensure the car was of merchantable quality.
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let me be the last to let you down....
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trade sale sold as seen
No such thing.
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Oldman,
Given the faults listed, there's not much one could say other than was it even roadworthy at point of sale.
No price is right for a car as described.
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At the start of this thread, you said: "We didn't notice any problems with car at all until we drove to a friend's house". But then go on to say the problems include:
* Severe drifting to the left
* Intermittent fault with the throtle staying open
* Clacking noises (see above)
* Very light 'loose' power steering.
* Squeeking from the front wheels when driving and braking
* Squeeking from the front wheels when turning a corner.
It would seem there were lots of problems apart from the engine noise but nothing was done. Were the other problems present from the day or purchase? To me this car sounds dangerous - the engine noise would be the least of my worries.
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>>Squeeking from the front wheels when driving and braking
* Squeeking from the front wheels when turning a corner.
the pads have metal bars fitted giving warning when pads are low known as audible warning,ie they touch the disc when worn,they work both when cornering and braking,this may be whats happening?.
>>Severe drifting to the left
could be down to low tyre pressures/tracking out or possible worn suspension bushes,Not uncommon on these?
Clacking possible piston slap as mentioned,dies off as engine warms up,if not probably tappets,
really need a full report of what Garage says before making any more comments,Bottom end of these engine are pretty much bullet proof,its the top end ie head that need looking after
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Steve
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Next time you buy a used car, get an AA check done on it first. Yup, expensive. But not as expensive as being done completely.
Secondly, what did you pay for the car?
Thirdly, there's no such thing as a 'trade sale'. Many statutory rights are disapplied for a business-to-business sale. If your girlfriend is not a car trader then it is very unlikely that they can be disapplied for a sale to her - whatever it said on the receipt.
Fourthly, don't spend a penny on a solicitor. Ever - cost you much more than the car is worth and there are generally no costs awarded in the 'small claims court'.
Fifthly, don't spend a penny on an AA-type appraisal yet. Go to your local Trading Standards with the quotation you have from the garage. Whilst a second hand car that cost you £800 does not have to be up to the same standards as a brand new car, a trader cannot shift a lemon like that onto a poor unsuspecting girl. A quiet word from Trading Standards to the garage might sort it out.
Sixthly, it is illegal to sell an unroadworthy car. It might be a bit difficult to prove that now - 1,000 miles and 3 months down the road.
Seventhly, whilst the car might pull hard to one side, that could easily have happened if your g/f hit a kerb at speed. Three months is a very long time which might make your argument different.
Finally, if it comes to it, and you think you have a good case, go to the small claims court. They don't like girls being conned by car dealers.
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>>and there are generally no costs awarded in the 'small claims court'.>>
I have costs allowed in the small claims court...:-)
I continued with the claim to the conclusion, even though a Central London based firm of solicitors representing the defending company claimed in its very first contact with me that their costs, which they would "definitely be awarded", were already £2,000.
Such frighteners don't bother me, but would a lot of other people.
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Yup. I have sued successfully in the small claims court 8 times. We can post a list of the frightener tactics used if we get that far.
I've got a barrister on this you'll lose and get hit with a zillion pounds costs is a normal one.
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i posted to show there are always two sides to a dispute
I get lots of customers who "used to be in the trade" and want cars cheaper, i have a special receipt for them taking away their buyers rights as traders its all in black and white and they have to sign date and time it before i release the car as trade sold as seen.
I await OP to come back with the receipt details, purchase price, whether a third party inspected the car at pos and what exactly were the terms of sale.
Im on nobodies side by the way just that in this job dave down the pub always has the definative answer apparently
ps no one has yet suggested that the pulling to one side is down to a deflated and punctured tyre, but i guess we never get punctures in this country :)
in my place,
My parting words to all my customers is if they have a problem come and see me not trading standards not the next garage down the road and definately not a mate thats had a few of that model,this has bade me well in all my years of trading .
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>>lots of customers who "used to be in the trade" and want cars cheaper,
Be careful, a trade sale is worthless. 'used to be in the trade' is not the same as 'in the trade'.
>>My parting words to all my customers is if they have a problem come and see me not trading standards not the next garage down the road and definately not a mate thats had a few of that model,this has bade me well in all my years of trading .
I'm sure it has. You probably wouldn't put the phone down on the buyer. I'm sure that in the car trade you see plenty of lemons and get used to dealing with unrealistic expectations of hte punters; putting the phone straight down imvho suggests a sign of a guilty conscience.
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Dunno if this helps but i went out with a girl who had a face like a bag of spanners
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Dunno if this helps but i went out with a girl who had a face like a bag of spanners
But did she have a face like a bag of spanners when you met her, in which case, I think you have little recourse against the supplier. Did she develop the spanner looks gradually, or did you suddenly realise after three months that you'd never liked her face ?
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Go on, get out of the car...
www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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nixxy, Dalgliesh is on the right track. The dealer may offer a 3 month warranty on everything down to the last light bulb, but on the "major" parts, his "sorry, sold without warranty/past 3 months from date of sale" isn't worth a candle in law. The link Dalgliesh posted is worth reading, and search the same site for other links to buying 2nd hand cars from dealers. I doubt if you could go back in 6 months time with a blown bulb, but a blown engine is a different matter.
I recommend that you read the details on the website in the post.
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I would take it to a local garage and get their opinon. Clattering on the K series is usually the tappets or piston slap. Tappets is not an engine rebuid and piston slap wont get any worse. If it was really bad you would have noticed it much sooner.
If its pulling to the left and theres squeeling under braking its likely the pads and discs need changing - something to be expected at the mileage of the car and maybe borderline when the MOT was done. I assume you only have the certificate and not the advisory notes?
Garages tend to have a very pesimistic outlook when you take a car in - especially if you havent used them before and a dealer is not really the place to be going on a 7 year old car.
Time for a reliable second opinion (in writing) and present that back to the seller and let us know what they say.
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AIUI the Small Claims Court will not award costs to a losing claimant if the claim is under £5k. There is a note to this effect in HJs column in this Saturdays Telegraph.
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Dunno if this helps but i went out with a girl who had a face like a bag of spanners
But did she pull to the left?
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Or make ´clacking´ noises?
Sorry mods.
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Or squeal when you slowed down or went round corners?
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ALL of the above! I certainly had my beer specs on when i met that's for sure!
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Do you live anywhere near to Walsall?
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not that i know of. where's walsall anyway?
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where's walsall anyway?
Close to Birmingham - M6 J10
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Nixxy joined the forum a wwek ago, asked a question, got a shed load of replies and advice and hasn't been back here for a week. Can we we expect any feedback on his bag of spanners I wonder?
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Nixxy, what was the price you paid for the car?
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The price paid for the car is crucial as far as the SoGA is concerned.
As far as this mystical "3 month used car warranty" is concerned there is no such thing. It has come about as a sort of reasonable peroid on the average used car but has no basis in fact or law. The key period under the SoGA is actually 6 months, not 3.
The price paid is important because your right if you paid £600 for the car are vastly less then if you paid £2000.
If you want a warranty on a used car then pay the appropriate price and make sure a proper one is included. The SoGA does not mean you can go around buying cars on the cheap and thinking you are buying with a bells and whistles warranty.
Buyer's rights cannot be taken away as a "trade sale", BUT if you buy at trade price and/or the transaction is generally considered to be a "sold as seen" deal then the buyer's rights are VASTLY less than if full retail price has been paid.
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Interesting view - maybe you could point me in the relevant direction of the section that makes your rights dependant upon what you paid.
Furthermore if you buy as a trade purchaser and sign as such you do lose your rights as a consumer.
"Sold as seen" mo longer works either, 'sold with the following defective points fully and accurately described' does.
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What no one has mentioned is that you can go to your local Citizens Advice Bureau for legal advice - they even have volunteer solicitors to give the right advice and procedure. This is free although they appreciate a small donation if you can afford it.
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What no one has mentioned is that you can go to your local Citizens Advice Bureau for legal advice - they even have volunteer solicitors to give the right advice and procedure. This is free although they appreciate a small donation if you can afford it.
i went there in the eighties with a problem and the free advice was very bad advice, thankfully i didnt follow it and got a paid solicitor,i would never use them again.
They cant be the horse for every course so their field will be limited, best find your own solicitor that specialises in your chosen problem, I would use the "cab" to see if they could point me in the right direction rather than a pin in yellow pages but not take what they say as gospel.
sorry...............
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Nixxy hasn't been here fo 10 days and we still don't know how much how much was paid for the wreck. We don't have enough information to give him any real help.
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It is not as issue of rights, it is an issue of what is defined as "satisfacory quality" as part of those rights. A £50,000 year old car is obviously judged on totally different criteria to a £500 banger. The age, mileage, price paid and nature of the transaction (for example, did the buyer ask what warranty the car came with and what was the vendor's reply?) all dictate what "satisfactory" acually means.
My main point was that if you want a warranted used car then buy one with a warranty.
My points were not specific to this case but the assertion "all" used cars come with a default 3 months warranty. That is misleading and implies people can buy used cars, forgoe any warranty offered and then think they are covered the same way.
In this particular case then I think you have a strong argument as even an old car should be able to do 1000 miles without the engine giving in.
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(1) My main point was that if you want a warranted used car then buy one with a warranty.
(2) In this particular case then I think you have a strong argument as even an old car should be able to do 1000 miles without the engine giving in.
Go on then, reconcile these two statements and I might think you're onto something. He didn't buy a car with warranty, yet you think he's got an argument...., sounds a bit mystical (sic) to me.
Gone are the days when a dealer could sell you a car 'trade sale, sold as seen' with HGF/needing a new 'box. Even if that car costs £200, it has to be in working order as a car. Whether the aircon or heater blower works, or the seat springs are gone, is another matter.
Signing a bit of paper confirming that you have made a trade purchase cannot suddenly make you a trader. Only business-to-business sales reduce the seller's obligations.
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