>>An 'S' reg I think is pre PD engine, so I would not be too bothered about this.>>
I agree, 10% petrol should be OK though in a later PD or CR diesel it can, not will, can do a lot of damage.
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IIRC with some very new diesels thic could be a problem. There was an article in the Telegraph Motoring supplement some time ago that talked about the effect on injectors IIRC.
However whilst working for a GM dealership in the early 90s I did this with an unregistered Vauxhall Brava pickup when driving it on trade plates. I actually ran it for around half a mile when it started running very badly!
I limped onto another petrol outlet and brimmed it with diesel. I then ran the engine and it picked up again - Phew!
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Often the problem does not raise its head until sometime in the future. We didn't hear the end of the story from No FM2R but he may not have heard the last of it... (I hope I'm wrong Mark)
The older generation diesels could tolerate mis-fuelling but the latest high pressured common rail designs are not at all tolerant to having petrol put in them.
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Nobody ever seems to mention putting diesel into a petrol car. Is this because a diesel pump nozzle is a larger diameter then a petrol and won't go in? I've not studied nozzle diameters (never had a diesel) but I understand that there are differences. It's high time that the size and/or shape of nozzles and filler necks were made such that it would be impossible to put the wrong fuel into any car. It wouldn't be that difficult.
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L\'escargot.
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I've done it. Absolutly positive I'd filled my 10 litre can with petrol - but I had filled it with diesel. Added it to about half a gallon of real petrol in the tank, and could not start the vintage car at all.
Due to a misaligned starter, I trashed my flywheel too.
Luckily, I was able to buy a new flywheel for less £90 and about a mornings work got things swapped over.
As the tank and quantities were small, the fuel disposal problems were simple. I probably could have just put it in my diesel landrover, but I don't think intentional misfueling is a good idea, so I had a rather enthusiastic bonfire in my garden.
Until fuel companies started playing around with hose colours I'm sure there was less of this, but there is no way nozzle sizes could be used. As you'd always be able to get the smaller nozzle in the larger hole!
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Square peg round hole is what's needed.
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Square peg round hole is what's needed.
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A good try.
IIRC a few moons ago someone gave the link to a patented solution. IIRC it included an oval nozzle as one of the varients. It was not possible to put the wrong spout in the tank.
The BIG problem seemed to be that although it seemed a good idea, implementing it was virtually impossible. Not just converting UK over time but UK visitors etc could have problems.
Oh an I guess EU approval would be required.
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<< but there is no way nozzlesizes could be used. As you'd always be able to get the smaller nozzle in the larger hole!
You're right, of course, about different nozzle sizes in isolation. I confused the issue by mentioning them.
I was really thinking more along the lines of a number of axial flutes equispaced around the circumference on the inside of filler necks and corresponding projections on the outside of pump nozzles ~ say two for petrol and three for diesel. Two into three won't go, and three into two won't go. The diameters could then be the same for both. The suggested number of flutes (two and three) might cause a problem by restricting the number of orientations of the nozzle that they allowed, in which case the number of flutes could be increased as necessary. The only requirement would be that one number should not be a multiple of the other. Provision would have to be made for the new nozzle design to be compatible with existing filler necks, and the old nozzles to be compatible with new filler necks but this wouldn't be difficult to achieve. It might even be possible to get round this by having fluted inserts to put into the filler necks of existing vehicles.
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L\'escargot.
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"axial flutes equispaced around the circumference on the inside of filler necks and corresponding projections on the outside of pump nozzles"
These are very big complex words for a soft-bodied invertebrate!
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TourVanMan < yes its RF reborn >
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Another great idea - why not have a sign above each nozzle saying what it is? And back this up by the digital display that shows what fuel you have chosen.
Oh thats right, we already have that. But lets blame everyone else anyway for our mistakes.
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Oh BobbyG, let us hope, nay PREY you dont come on here in the next 24 months saying "Help wrong.........Scenic"
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TourVanMan < yes its RF reborn >
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If I did , do you think I would come on here to tell you all!
Nae Chance!!
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Its alright being sarcastic sbout it, but its a big problem and its growing. The AA website says 120000 people do it per year and its increasing as diesel car ownership increases. 56% of people doing it are men.
I've been mad about cars since I was 4 years old, and consider myself to have a pretty good mechanical knowledge, but I'll hold up my hand and admit to doing it. Due to various factors (had been driving a petrol car for a week) and a temporary lack on concentration (I was in a rush), I put BP Ultimate petrol instead of BP Ultimate diesel into my Saab TiD. The Ultimate pump nozzles are pretty much similar, just a different shade of blue, and in my haste I thought I'd got the correct one.
The AA launched a campaign in early 2004 to get all pumps colour coded the same, but not every fuel company has heeded it.
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We can argue about what percentage of petrol will cause problems, but the only safe amount is 'zero'. I have heard of lots of HP pumps failing and major fuel system work being done so it does seem to be a significant problem. There really does need to be some form of 'interlock' system to prevent misfuelling - especially with many people using rental cars or borrowing company vehicles etc.
Personally I would not want to buy a used high-pressure Diesel. You don't know if its just had a major misfuelling and the owner is getting shot. This would apply particularly to ex-rental Diesels, which are probably more likely than most to have been misfuelled at some time.
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The best solution would be to go back to entirely separate pumps. "THIS LANE DIESEL ONLY" ought to sort out most people.
Alternatively, have a button on the pump console where you have to click YES to confirm that you want to put in diesel - a bit like deleting a computer file. (YOU ARE ABOUT TO WIPE YOUR HARD DRIVE _ CLICK YES IF OK)
If you force people to actively make a choice, rather than just grabbing a nozzle and firing it, they might think a bit harder - what do I want to put in this car? Have I made the right selection?
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Ok - I'm not entirely thick (I can even manage to check the oil and water myself and probably change a tyre at a push:), but when I drive a petrol car everyday and then borrow my fiance's car very infrequently, even having a big sign above the pumps and different colours does not help me when I'm fighting rush hour traffic from Oxford to Cambridge and am thinking about a presentation rather than recalling that the Golf is a diesel not a petrol car.
Himself works on the rally championships (nothing mechanical) and one of the camera crew did the same thing to the boss's car in Greece this summer - had to get whole thing drained etc, point being even car obsessed blokes can make the same mistake if driving an unfamiliar car.
Anyway, I confessed and he was very good about it (though car is still working so remains to be seen if attitude changes!) - nicer than I would have been if he had done the same thing to my car!
Thanks for all your advice and opinions - guess it is just a case of wait and see as any damage has probably been done by now. I topped it up again last night on way home so now 59 litres D to 4 litres P so fingers crossed......
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We can argue about what percentage of petrol will cause problems, but the only safe amount is 'zero'.
Is it not the case though that modern Common Rail and PD engines are much more susceptible to damage than with older types of diesel engine?
Can we make that distinction? Of course there will be exceptions, you cannot guarantee that damage will not occur in an older car, and if someone decides to brim the tank with diesel and drive away rather than having it drained, then thats the risk they decide to take.
I put £15 quids worth of petrol in my 1999 Saab, and went the whole hog and drove off in it. After a mile the engine cut out, I got it towed to a garage and it cost me £70 (including new fuel) to have the tank drained, fuel lines flushed, and new fuel filter fitted. Its now 8 months/ 17k miles later and I've not yet had any problems with it. My car has the Bosch VP44 injection pump which has a reputation for problems on diesel, never mind petrol!
I got advice from a well respected Saab mechanic who said, "it should be okay, it should not have caused any damage". And another mechanic who said, "we've done loads of these, we've never had any damage on one to my knowledge".
If you do this in a PD or CR engined car, then best of luck to you. If you do it in an older TDi car, and someone tells you you need new injectors and injector pump, then I would try to get a second opinion.
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I got advice from a well respected Saab mechanic who said, "it should be okay, it should not have caused any damage". And another mechanic who said, "we've done loads of these, we've never had any damage on one to my knowledge".
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you will find loads of cases where this is true, and you will find loads of cases where people have been panicked in to spending hundreds or thousands or pounds on "preventative work".
i have yet to find any documented case of actual real damage ( whether short-term or long-term), rather than "may damage your engine in the long term etc. ".
i am with no-fm2r on this one. all this scaremongering is designed to fleece money off the gullible section of motorists. as i think no-fm2r said in his own thread, you will be better off waiting to see if any of this forecast damage materialises, and if it does and you are still the owner of the car, pay for it to be repaired then.
of course if you ask the "experts" (health and safety people are the worst at this ) they will say "zero" tolerance is the best.
they would probably tell you that the best way to avoid damaging your engine is never to drive your car !
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"axial flutes equispaced around the circumference on the inside of filler necks and corresponding projections on the outside of pump nozzles" These are very big complex words for a soft-bodied invertebrate!
As Roy Jay used to say "Slither, you'll all be doing it tomorrow."!
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L\'escargot.
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