Wonder if any BR's in the Derbyshire area can illuminate me.
Having just spent a very enjoyable fortnight walking and biking in Derbyshire I came across a query that I can't seem to get a straight answer to. I noticed that there are 20mph signs around many of the local schools that are operational only when the amber lights on the signs are flashing, presumably at the start and finish of the school day, all in all a much more imaginative approach to the problem than our local 24/7 20mph limits. However the signs just state a 20 mph zone is in force when the lights flash, there do not appear to be any repeater signs and, probably more important, no sign to mark the end of the zone.
A couple of locals I spoke to just said words to the effect,'Ah well, everyone knows the school is in ???? Lane so we don't go back to 30 until we get to ???? Road'
They seemed quite perplexed when I asked how would a visitor know when it was safe to go back to a 30 limit both hazard wise and enforcement wise. They didn't really seem to have thought about it until I pointed it out and that Derbyshire does tend to attract a pretty large number of visitors, very few of whom would know where the local schools were.
Can anyone enlighten me?
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May or may not be a useful answer...
Around the estate where I stay a lot of the smaller roads have recently had a "suggested" limit of 20 installed, dispite still legally being 30. At the boundaries of all these zones there is a thin layer of red tarmac right across the width of the road. Keep an eye out for this as they may have put this down in the school area also.
Another thought is, since you see the signs with the flashing amber lights to inform you of the reduced limit, if you are travelling along the same road in the opposite direction are there any such signs? Keep an eye in your mirrors as you are driving through the area until you see one such sign on the other side of the road, at which point you will no longer be in the 20 zone.
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There *should* be something there to tell you when the limit changes back to 30. When I'm driving through a school zone at school-run time I want to be looking where I'm going, not where I've been. If you've been told the limit is 20 by law, that limit stands until you see a sign that tells you it's ended, I'd have thought. Bad council. No biscuit.
The converse of this, of course, is when you're happily hammering down the motorway and you come across one of those matrix signs that says END. Urm... end of what, exactly?
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The converse of this, of course, is when you're happily hammering down the motorway and you come across one of those matrix signs that says END. Urm... end of what, exactly?
Errr... that 20 limit in leicstershire ???...cheers...keo
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In Denbighshire there are several 20 mph signs near schools that have no indication of when they are operational. However in Powys the 20 mph signs have a statement by them which 'says' that they are only in operation when crossing patrol lights are flashing. All the 20 mph signs have a black circle around them which I think means that they are not mandatory. All very confusing!
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From what I understand there can be two 20 limits. Firstly a 20 mph ZONE which will carry traffic calming measures (humps etc). The authority for the 20's used to rest with the Sec of State but he has now passed the power to Local Authorities. As an Order is required for the limit then it has to be signed at the start and end. The length of the limit will be stipulated in the Order. If it is a ZONE then repeaters are not required because "since the self enforceing nature of the Zone should not require a reminder of speed limit".
The second is the imposition of a 20 mph speed limit. Again an Order is required and has to be signed at the start and end. The LA in their Order can make variable mandatory 20 mph limits that change between 20 - 30 mph dependent on the time of day. If no traffic calming measures in place then there has to be repeaters.
These limits imposed by Order will have the 20 sign within a red roundel. If it is black then it has no authority as a mandatory sign.
Re Derbyshire.
The entrance sign has been erected but not the exit in preparation of the Order being made, or
If the exit sign is missing then Derbys. have made a lash up and the 20 mph limit cannot be enforced. There is a recommended distance under which a limit should be used and maybe Derbys realise this and for safety reasons have just erected a commencement sign knowing that a limit cannot be enforced,or
The poster above has missed seeing the exit signs.
DVD
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I've had a search around and have actually come up with a site which has some photos of one of the zones I saw. The bottom two shots apply.
tinyurl.com/ccxsu
From what's been said above these would appear to be advisory only. I certainly didn't miss any repeaters or exit signs as I saw these in several locations over a couple of weeks and specifically looked for repeaters and exit signs when I next passed through the zones local to where I was staying.
Taking the point from above about looking in the mirror to see when you've passed out of the zone, yes, that maybe a solution but if a zone is worthy of a 20 limit I would rather be looking out for the hazard i.e. children rather than looking in my mirrors to spot a sign. Incidentally the backs of the signs are a nice standard grey colour which blends in nicely with the background of grey stonewalled buildings in most of the villages I saw them in! Certainly not designed to stand out!
It's just an observation that as someone not local to the area I found it confusing on first impression and as I think that I'm someone who's pretty observant on the road and fairly au fait with most things it probably confuses a lot of other people as well. I would suggest that if there is a need for a lower limit due to a hazard then confusion is not perhaps the best bedfellow.
Cockle
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Photo's 1 to 4 show Camera fodder.
Last 2 as you say Cockle purely advisory and will not have an exit sign other than a possible iddication of the school premises themselves or the entry sign on the othert side of the road.
DVD
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