Came within inches of having an accident this morning on a roundabout I've moaned about on here before and was just wondering if people could comment who would have actually got the blame had the accident actually happened? (Of course, I'm sure it wouldn't have been my fault! :)
Basically, I was going straight on at a roundabout (exit actually just before what straight on would be). Used left lane at the roundabout. Big 4x4 with scary bullbars pulls up beside me while we wait for traffic to clear. We both join following a van which is using the same exit as me. I assume the 4x4 is going further around and he's behind me anyway. The van pulls up just off the roundabout exit and at the same time I realise the 4x4 has launched himself off the roundabout beside and just behind me. I of course now need to pull out to avoid the van but if I pull over I'd be moving straight in to his path. (Single lane exit but just about wide enough for two cars to come off but it does narrow quickly)
Luckily the 4x4 realised the van was stopping as well and chucked the anchors on so I could go around the van but had he not, he would have effectively have pushed me in to the van...
IMO the road layout is bad because it allows this sort of daft thing to occur, combined with lack of discipline in drivers around here... So, who's fault and how to avoid this sort of thing in future? (Other than walking or finding a route without roundabouts!)
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Sorry, not sure I've quite got this. The van was parking at the side of the road just on the roundabout exit?
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The van driver would be the recipient of my boot!
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If the 4x4 had rear ended you it would have been his fault, irrespective of the van drivers reason for stopping. The onus is always on the following vehicle to drive in a manner in which he has time to pull up should the traffic ahead come to a stop, for whatever reason.
The van driver doesn't sound as if he was too clever in coming to an unexpected halt but there are many legit reasons why a vehicle may suddenly stop, to avoid an accident, mechanical failure etc.
That is the view that would almost certainly be taken by the police, courts and insurance companies.
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It sounds like the van driver chose a stupid place to stop, but if you had run into the back of it you would be held to blame. If you'd pulled out round it and the 4x4 had hit you I think that would be a bit more tricky. If he's behind you its his fault. If he's alongside you its yours. If he's sort of in between, who knows. Lukily both you and the 4x4 driver were alert.
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Sorry, I disagree that the fault lies with the 4x4 if he runs into the back of you. By what you are saying, you are effectively pulling out from the inside to the outside (no, not that debate!) and into his path.
I think it would have been your fault, unfortunately at that as you pretty much didn't have any way out of it - suppose you will always get the argument that you should leave enough braking distance between you and the vehicle in front, whether that be 70mph in an outside lane, or 20 mph on a roundabout slip road!
But, thankfully, no accident happened and you didn't get a set of bull bars pushing on your head rest!!
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I think Steve was saying he only pulled out after the 4x4 realised what was happening and held back. His question was who would have been at fault if the 4x4 driver had not been paying attention and shunted him into the van.
Perhaps Steve will come back and clarify.
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Not with you Tom Shaw on this one.
Without being there and independent evidence on speed/positions/distances then this reads as if 4 x 4 has anticipated van stoppping (seen signal/brake lights)and moved over to cater for impending obstruction. Steve has not and to avoid an accident has had to swing out across the path of 4 x 4 causing driver to brake to avoid an accident.
From information given NOIP Steve for due care.
DVD
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As I as I can see its the van driver who has caused the problem by stopping in a dangerous place, if he hadn't have done that the near miss wouldn't have happened. But causes and faults aren't the same thing in the eyes of the law unfortunately.
Steve should have driven in a way to to ready for the van driver to do something daft like this (it was a van after all...), so giving himself time and space to either slow down or speed up and go round the van without impeding the 4x4 behind me. So he's partially to blame (assuming the 4x4 wasn't ready for what happened) for moving into the path of another faster vehicle.
Can you claim insurance of another driver who causes an accident even if they are not involved in the collision?
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Can you claim insurance of another driver who causes an accident even if they are not involved in the collision?
Yes, in theory. In most cases, probably not in practice. Firstly, even if the did cause the accident, would he remain at the scene, and even if he did, what evidence would there be that he was at fault rather than merely concerned at what happened in his rear view mirror?
Secondly, by and large, people are entitled to stop by the side of the road, or they may break down, etc., so it would be very difficult to attribute fault in this case, at least to a degree that would make the van driver worth pursuing.
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Obviously would depend on the roundabout layout, but shoudl the 4x4 driver have been swinging from the inside lane to turn off? Especially if the turn off didn't have two lanes.
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If you had hit the van and then the 4x4 had hit you;
You would have paid for the damage to the front of your car and the van, and the 4x4 would have paid for the damage to the front of his and the rear of yours - although that may vary slightly if you had merely tapped the van causing minimal damage and then the 4x4 had hit you had ramming you even harder intot eh van.
You should both have allowed sufficient space whatever happened to the vehicle in front of you. It was only slowing down and pulling over. If it had hit something it would have stopped dead and then you'd have ploughed into it.
If the 4x4 had hit you and pushed you into the van;
The 4x4 would have paid for all the damage since you had left sufficient space and he had not.
In neither case would the van driver have been at fault, although he may have caught some level of contributory negligence if he had done something really ridiculous. Essentially the following vehicle has the responsibility and therefore the fault.
Although you'd have to see the roundabout to know whether or not you were correct to go straight on using the outside lane of the roundabout whereas perhaps that should have been for people takng the first exit.
Even if the driver of the van was guilty of driving without due care or similar, that does not neccessarily mean he takes responsibility for a vehicle hitting him from behind - the two matters are not absolutely related.
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OK, trying to answer as many of the points as I can...
The van actually pulled over from the inside of the roundabout - I had been half expecting him to carry on round so I ended up nearer to him than is sensible I will admit. Rather than slam the anchors on to increase the gap, I simply did not accelerate, leaving him to create the gap by his acceleration. However, he braked and just stopped just off the roundabout with no signals to show this, although of course it's impossible to signal clearly in this situation as you should have been signalling left to show you were exiting. (I *think* he was looking for someone to pick up) As the road is single lane at this point I simply went to pull around him. However, when I glanced in the mirror before pulling out, I realised the 4x4 was trying to fit in a gap that wasn't there. If I'd have braked I'd still have missed the van but the 4x4 would probably have not been able to stop in time and short of running over a kerb and bollard would have hit me. My instinct was to boot it and get around the van, luckily the 4x4 slowed when he saw the van and I was able to get around OK.
Daft this is if I'd been further back from the van on the exit, the 4x4 would probably have dived for that gap although I'd have been in a position to see it was going to do so easier.
Although you'd have to see the roundabout to know whether or not you were correct to go straight on using the outside lane of the roundabout whereas perhaps that should have been for people takng the first exit.
No road markings which doesn't help, but the roundabout has three exits, one very sharp left which is normally never used as there is a cut-through just before (currently closed off though for building work). The second is a continuation of the road I join on, the third 270deg round. The roundabout itself is very narrow so common sense is needed at the best of times. Looking at Multimap actually suggests the second exit is slightly over 180 deg so I guess technically should be right hand lane, but if everyone did use the right lane then the left lane would be useless as the first exit isn't used. Certainly 99% of drivers use the left lane to continue on and treat is as a two-exit roundabout.
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