Having lived in the US I can vouch for the fact that their healthcare system is a complete scam - designed to keep doctors in S-Class Mercs. A single visit to the GP and some antibiotics will set you back $200+ !! NHS is a very good thing IMHO. Also been unfortunate enough to witness a couple of RTA's in the US and I can tell you that their emergency services are not as well trained as ours - don't believe what you see on TV. Lots of confusion and people not knowing what to do etc.
On a more motoring related theme - a past neighbour of mine used to make a very good living importing grey-market motorbikes. He used to make a tidy profit bringing Triumphs in from Canada - cany you believe that, they travelled around 8k miles on a ship and he sells them less than the local dealer can get them from the factory.
He also started importing good quality automtoive tools - again undercutting the local suppliers.
I now buy any 'non-emergency' parts for my Mercedes from a dealer in Munich when I'm over there. Example saving - rear subframe bush for a C-class - £60+ from UK dealer; £24 in Germany....
|
|
|
>>>>>Levi 505 jeans at Great Lakes Crossing $27ea. Can't get them for less than £45 here.
505's are my jeans too (black natch). Good roomy bum capacity for sitting on motorcycles.*** I buy them at J.C. Penney: $29 last time. I tried in UK at a Levi shop but was told they aren't sold in the UK only in the US... Once I saw the prices I walked out anyway.
** motoring link.
|
|
|
I've no experience of the US healthcare system but according to someone on Radio 4's 'Today' programme this morning, 40% of personal bankruptcies in the US are related to an inability to pay for healthcare costs. Whether this is true or not I don't know but even if it is only partially true, a statistic such as that reflects a society's values.
** no motoring connection whatever, but who cares these days? **
|
I just can't subscribe to ROB as a broad brush statement.
Often folks are giving cheap oil in France as "proof", yet most times our local 7-days a week auto shop is cheaper than the prices you mention.
I've just bought some well fitting cotton shirts from Matalan that wash and TD well...£6 each. Got some jeans for the kids from Tescos, made/cut as well as Levis...only £4 a pair.
Every week the local Co-Op has "buy one, get one free" offers in about every basic area of food you might wish to buy.
Andyspares/GSF supply OE parts for many foreign cars at prices often less than 50% retail.
We've just had a week in Scotland where our excellent mid-day meals (in stunning locations) have been around £16-£20 for two adults and two kids.
Used car prices here, in terms of condition/ability per pound, arecat an all time low.
The Internet has given us the power to search and get to the best UK prices when the need arises...frankly I'm amazed at how cheap nearly everything I want can be found.
If you just walk in and roll over at the first shop you find... well then you might pay through the nose.
Oh and if you do want something that is much cheaper abroad, well it's a global market so just order it from wherever anyway... no need to grumble.
Example...I needed new jeans just before our hols. Been buying from the USA for 15yrs now. Online order to Wichita, Kansas one Sunday evening for exactly the right type/fit*...and they arrive at the door four days later. Price per pair under £26 inc air mail and customs.
*Wrangler Pro-Rodeo slim fit for me of course....*The* riders jean.
And to adapt your phrase Growler... it matters not what you ride, just that you do so in the right jeans.
;-)
M.M
|
|
MM, your posting is a breath of fresh air. Perhaps the whingers will just get on with life..... some hope!
|
|
Price of goods in the UK is largely driven by premium property prices. If you want rip off though, try Switzerland. The prices there are so hot they will singe your eyebrows off.
|
MM, nick, jeds: We are of the same opinion. however, the message will never get through to the believers of R-O-B. It is only when you try to set up and run your own business that you realise all the costs involved as an Employer in the UK compared to the US (long holidays, sick-pay, maternity/paternity rights, high council tax, National Insurance, Employers liability, health &safety, Buildings-rents/maintenance/cleaning/repairs/heating/lighting, the list of hig UK costs/estras seems endless ).
I agree with MM's post on school runs too.
|
>>>>We are of the same opinion. however, the message will never get through to the believers of R-O-B.
Unfortunately to the customer the origins of the cost drivers are irrelevant. He looks at the sticker price of the goods or service and makes his buying decision or not on that. Who is doing the R-O-B-ing whether gov't or goods/service provider is of no consequence, the impact on his wallet is the same.
I'm sorry if all that overhead means you have to charge me 3X for my Mobil 1, but it isn't really my problem. If I can get it some other place for 1/3 the price, I'd be daft not to. Hell, you're business men, you have to agree with that. ("I" here being the customer in general). That is the harsh fact. Nowhere more so than in motoring -- look at those RAC figures, OK you can dispute them but somebody presumably did some thorough research to dig them up. Pin-point accuracy may be less important than throwing the issue into focus, as has happened.
Being an outsider in the sense of a regular UK visitor as well as a regular traveller to other parts I see this price "disparity" (if R-O-B offends) hideously clearly. An American friend of mine has just returned from a business trip to London and when I asked him how it went his words were "Jesus man, your country's prices are obscene".
|
|
Growler: I am not saying that UK motoring (and other) prices are not obscene. I too would prefer a free motoring (and other)market in UK devoid of all the EU & local bureacrats. As I have said before, your and my motoring (and other) politics are virtually identical. Until the world as a whole operates under identical rules and regulations on motoring (and other), [and is either a true "free capitalist market" or a true fully communist one-world run by uniform bleeding-heart limp-wristed humans], the chances are that regional variations in motoring (and other) prices/wages etc. will persist.
|
|
|
|
All I can say is thank goodness people whinged and moaned about UK car prices in the past (not least the Consumers' Association). Had these whingers and moaners kept their mouths shut we would still be paying excessively inflated prices for our cars.
No one likes paying over the odds. If I'm not mistaken much of HJ's site is dedicated to helping people get new cars at prices much lower than their local dealer is willing to supply. All this publicity and better consumer information have now driven UK prices down close to European levels.
Unfortunately dealers have decided to recoup some of their lost profit by inflating the costs of spares and servicing. If people are willing to be mug enough to sit back and not complain then more fool them.
As an aside, I was at a small local motor industry 'get together' yesterday evening. A lot of people were talking about the forthcoming changes to block exemption. There was a guy from a large BMW dealer network (speaking 'off the record, of course) saying that BMW UK are sharply increasing prices of special tools and maintainence equipment to make sure that indepedendents will not be able to afford to enter the market for BMW service and repair. I spoke to a local MB guy I know and apparently MB are doing the same - they have increased prices on MB special tools so that it now requires an investment in excess of £35k to do MB service work! This will effectively neutralise the 'threat' posed to major dealers by the Block Exemption changes.
As to eMBe's comments about tax, NI etc. etc. Well, I've heard it all before, usually it comes from the CBI and IoD. My father ran his own independent motor repair business for over 3 decades and managed to make a reasonable living despite paying all of the tax, rent, elec. bills, employing a few guys and charging around the lowest labour rates in the area.
I now spend about half my life working abroad and I can assure you that Germans employed in the motor industry (whether graduate designers, engineers, or technicans at the dealers) earn *more* than their UK equivalent, get better benefits, longer holidays and pay *less* in the shops. They are simply better off. Some of this is due to the fact that productivity is much higher over there - the UK's infrastructure is clapped out and run down. People are also generally better educated over there - I'm often amused by the fact that German school leavers have a better grasp of English grammar than many of their British counterparts. The level of technical education is also much, much higher. I think UK Further Education has been run into the ground (youngsters doing NVQ's in 'hospitality' and hairdressing instead of engineering and technology, which is now nearly 'dead' in FE). I really can't see where the next generation of vehicle technicians is going to come from.
To those who say that if its better elsewhere, then leave the country. Well, yes, I agree. But I don't think its generally realised just how many talented British engineers and designers have *already* gone abroad. There are large numbers of British staff employed throughout the German motor industry (and in France and Scandinavia too), leaving the UK skills pool severely depleted.
|
|
More motoring, less politics please.
|
|
|
Aprilia: I shall refrain from posting a whole book on economic theory. (And I, too, know of some family run firms who do business on a charitable basis.) But in essence, to sum it up - just think of the biological "food chain" and "Darwin's survival of the fittest". That should settle it. For every penny you make or don't make, someone at the end of the "food-chain" pays for it somehow.
Now strictly back to motoring:
>>"..There was a guy from a large BMW dealer network (speaking 'off the record, of course) saying that BMW UK are sharply increasing prices of special tools and maintainence equipment to make sure that indepedendents will not be able to afford to enter the market for BMW service and repair. I spoke to a local MB guy I know and apparently MB are doing the same - they have increased prices on MB special tools so that it now requires an investment in excess of £35k to do MB service work! ..">>
The answer to this is (apart from the fact that they can charge what the market will bear for their product):
1. If you buy MB, you can afford these charges. Otherwise don't buy MB.
2. If you buy BMW, you can afford these charges. If you cannot afford these charges, then you should
either buy a BMW diesel which comes as standard with free 5 years servicing thrown in,
or buy the 5 year servicing package now available on non-diesel BMWs,
or buy a Hyundai with free 5 year warranty and 3 years servicing.
|
>> Now strictly back to motoring: >>"..There was a guy from a large BMW dealer network (speaking 'off the record, of course) saying that BMW UK are sharply increasing prices of special tools and maintainence equipment to make sure that indepedendents will not be able to afford to enter the market for BMW service and repair. I spoke to a local MB guy I know and apparently MB are doing the same - they have increased prices on MB special tools so that it now requires an investment in excess of £35k to do MB service work! ..">> The answer to this is [snip]>>
Actually the legal answer is that this policy is clearly in contravention of EU anti competitive legislation.
If I were a MB/BMW independant specialist, a complaint to DG CCE Brussels would be winging its way sharpish on the basis that both are in contravention of article 82 re abuse of a dominant market position.
If we have to live and do business in this lunatic asylum then one should make the rules work to one's advantage.
|
Actually the legal answer is that this policy is clearly in contravention of EU anti competitive legislation. If I were a MB/BMW independant specialist, a complaint to DG CCE Brussels would be winging its way sharpish on the basis that both are in contravention of article 82 re abuse of a dominant market position. If we have to live and do business in this lunatic asylum then one should make the rules work to one's advantage.
You are quite right and I think we are going to be hearing a lot more about this. The whole independent sector is very unhappy about the way Block Exemption is panning out in the UK. Coupled with increasing 'vertical integration' (i.e. the manufacturers want to own distribution and retail) the big VM's seem determined to choke-off any independent competition and effectively close down the independent sector.
|
|
2. If you buy BMW, you can afford these charges. If you cannot afford these charges, then you should either buy a BMW diesel which comes as standard with free 5 years servicing thrown in, or buy the 5 year servicing package now available on non-diesel BMWs,
Ref eMBe's post: I'm looking at a new 5 series (diesel) and note that far from being 'free' the 5 year service package is £750 - up to 5 years or 60k miles. Given I do about 10k a year is it worth buying the service package? I've never owned a diesel before but am led to believe they need servicing more often. Is this true? (Incidentally, I don't want to start a petrol -v- diesel debate here; I've seen them in the BR before.)Any advice gratefully received. Cheers.
8 ball
|
|
I think as a general rule the servicing intervals are roughly the same now between petrol and diesel give or take a bit. I have also found that diesel servicing tends to be cheaper than its petrol equivilent.
|
>> BMWs, Ref eMBe's post: I'm looking at a new 5 series (diesel) and note that far from being 'free' the 5 year service package is £750 - up to 5 years or 60k miles.>> >>
Sorry, the free deal applies to 3 series only.
" BMW Saloon customers who choose the dynamic 320d or 330d models will now benefit from an attractive free servicing and maintenance package. This package offers five years or 60,000 miles servicing and maintenance - the equivalent of up to a £3,000 saving and includes:
· Oil services
· Inspection services
· Brake pad and discs
· Brake fluid
· Wiper blades
· All labour charges
Linked to the already comprehensive BMW Warranty (3 years unlimited mileage), this effectively eliminates all maintenance costs and is transferable if the vehicle is sold. "
|
|
eMBe
There is no 'market' in the product - MB are the only supplier of their own special tools. This is all part of the BE changes which are supposed to 'open up' the market in sevicing, but which are actually being abused to choke off the independents (and has really upset a lot of their franchised dealers too).
The BMW servicing package is not 'free' - it is added to the price of the car. They want to lock the customer into their servicing for 5 years. Currently, at 4 years about 70% of the customers have left the dealer network. Think about that, and read the paragraph above. Has the penny dropped yet?
|
The BMW servicing package is not 'free' - it is added to the price of the car.
Simple. You are free to take your servicing elsewhere if you don't wish to avail yourself of the inclusive free servicing. (free lunches, economics, and free markets - teaching grandma to suck eggs comes to mind.)
Has the penny dropped yet? >>
Simple. Nobody forces anyone to buy Mercs or BMWs. Pennies? What are they? It is gold sovreigns for those who can afford BMWs and Mercs. To them, it matters not what it costs. They buy these cars because they can afford them. Dealers try to weed out those who like to think they can but will later whinge about every little minor extra cost.
Simple (but unpapatable to some) economic truth: the ultimate goal of a capitalist business in a true free market is to achieve a monopoly position.
|
Simple (but unpapatable to some) economic truth: the ultimate goal of a capitalist business in a true free market is to achieve a monopoly position.
True: and just why do you think that is?
Its what you do once you are in such a position that matters.
Is it not because of past abuse of dominant and monopoly position that certain laws have been put into place. Like it or not these laws exist on the statute book.
Now I HAVE to understand these laws and obey them, simply because I don't want to be fined up to 10% of total turnover. Last time I looked don't think I could find over 0.5 billion USD down the back of the car seats or even in the building society account, mores the pity.
Therefore my point is if I, and other responsible outfits, obey these laws then so should DB and BMW.
The reason that nothing has been done in the past is partly block exemption, but also because none of the vehicle manufacturers wants to open a real can of worms by telling teacher.
An independant, however, has nothing to lose by complaining. The sad fact is that probably most of them, and their advisors, don't know enough of the detail to get a case together. Plus if the case is proven it could get annulled by a political deal negotiated in a smoke filled back room somewhere in Brussels.
However, in the example, as presented above, ie restriction of independant trade, this is clearly, IF it is true, that the companies are opening themselves up to investigation and a potential 10% turnover fine. Taking the example at face value the law is quite clear they would be in breach. If it is true, there will be an e-mail or something hidden away somewhere.
There IS case precedent for restriction of special tools btw, not in the motor industry I admit.
Now before Growler starts I'm not defending these laws as in some of the aspects they make you think the lunatics really are in charge of the asylum.
However I also agree in some part with MM that its not a broad brush thing. You have to know your market and the price structure.
PS.
Folks who accuse of whinging don't understand all the picture IMO.
|
|
FiF - for the record, I am a believer in true free markets. So I have no objection to any and all Companies being penalised for acting otherwise. Block exemptions, cartels, etc. should all be dealt with. Perhaps in a hundred years the whole World (except the French, who will ignore any rules) will have fully harmonised taxes, prices, wages, criminal & civil laws, pensions, medical care, living standards, identical homes, one-size bananas, etc. All identical goods will then maybe cost the same in the World. That is, free capitalist markets will have achieved the utopia of true Communism.
|
More motoring, less politics was my request.
Soon I will simply lock this thread.
|
Bravo Nick, Bravo MM,
I have spent lots of time in France and the price of motoring over there is no more cheaper or is that less expensive
than over here, and in day to day living, Six of one half a dozen of the other springs to mind.
Growler I can get levis 501 for £28 in the UK.
Now is it not strange that when you here people complain about R.O.B the comparison of Cigarettes and Beer is usually
the first one made !!!!!!!!
|
Can't get into 501's old sport :+( Has to be 505's. Anyway £28 is still $44 compared with J.C. Penney's $29. 50% more expensive.
Ah well, time to crack open another 16p bottle of San Miguel (TIC)
|
|
Tesco Value jeans only cost £4. I'll get me coat...
|
But (paraphrased) as Mother used to say what if you have an accident and someone sees them.....? ;-)
|
I'm sure Mother was only concerned with them being clean Growler, not the brand. And there's an important point, if you have life truly sussed the brand matters not one jot if they do the job.
And to those Tesco value jeans....bear in mind they were for girls of 6 and 8 who are as likely to trash them in the bike chain on day one as not.
Having said that these particular ones are possibly the best copy of something like a USA supplied slim fit Levi 517 I've ever seen. That is very unusual in a kids jean which are usually the "wrong" kind of blue and cut for a Tellytubbie. And for the image biased kid there is no outer label actually giving the game away!
No forget the brand, the wealthiest folks in town around here wear wellingtons to the shops.
Mind you Tesco's value lemonade is a different matter....
M.M
|
Sorry for remaining off topic, but the Tesco Value jeans are available in adult sizes. I think they were £6 each or two for a tenner but lately they've been marked down to £4.
As mother used to say, it doesn't matter as long as they're clean.
|
You are not that free to take servicing elsewhere. The dealer backed parts of the warranty exclude it as it is made very clear if you take your car elsewhere then you are not covered. I know for example that alfa 156s have been snapping cam belts early. If they are serviced at an alfa dealer then alfa will guarantee the belts up to 5 years and 60k. If not they couldn't give a monkeys. Bearing in mind the quality of repair at an alfa dealer (and most other main dealers) a good independent does a better job for less money but if you want alfa to pay out if an early failure occurs you have to pay through the nose for second rate service.
As far as I am concerned it should have been laid out in the rules that servicing and maintenance can be done by any vat registered garage that uses genuine or original spec parts and that manufacturers could not refuse to pay out for failures in their product.
I think there is a gap in the market for an independent warranty company to have manufacturer style warranties without the exclusions for new cars so that people can choose where they get their car serviced. This would put the wind up manufacturers as it would allow people to buy from unofficial sources but still get a lot of the backing as long as the warranty pays out for the work it doesn't matter where it gets done. It could also give a lift to the independent sector as you could have make approved independents who would be guaranteed certain levels of work so the investment in special tools (has anyone thought of duplicating them? ) would be worth it. Perhaps the manufacturer needs to offer the cars at two prices. One with the dealer restricted warranty and one without and let people decide how they want their car serviced. If there is a limit on the percentage extra that can be charged then I would be likely to go for it. Not sure what would happen in the second hand market though.
Citroen have started having parts that can only be used on one vehicle and have to be 'registered' with that car. This is more worrying than the price of tools increase as it means every part needed has to be specially ordered and the usual diagnostic route of trying out a replacement of what you suspect is broken won't work and if it didn't fix the problem then the part is scrap rather than reusable.
teabelly
|
teabelly: you are free to buy/not-buy a BMW.
1. If you buy a 3 series diesel, you get 5 years servicing included in the price. If you don't want that included, tough luck or you can still take your car to any garage and PAY them again to do the work. or you can DIY. There is nothing to stop you doing that. It is not a civil a criminal offence.
2. If you buy a new 5 series BMW, you are given the option to purchase a fixed price 5 year servicing deal. The other comments in 1 above apply again.
Now your specific points (please note: I speak "plainly", and appear blunt, but no offence is intended nor should be taken):
You are not that free to take servicing elsewhere. The dealer backed parts of the warranty exclude it as it is made very clear if you take your car elsewhere then you are not covered.
People always want something for nothing. No law says you can't go to an independent and buy a warranty from warrant-direct to protect you.
If they are serviced at an alfa dealer then alfa will guarantee the belts up to 5 years and 60k. If not they couldn't give a monkeys. Bearing in mind the quality of repair at an alfa dealer (and most other main dealers) a good independent does a better job for less money but if you want alfa to pay out if an early failure occurs you have to pay through the nose for second rate service.
I am afraid this convoluted logic and talking in circles makes me dizzy.
As far as I am concerned it should have been laid out in the rules that servicing and maintenance can be done by any vat registered garage that uses genuine or original spec parts and that manufacturers could not refuse to pay out for failures in their product.
You can always use the Court (or join the CA) to test the legality of this.
I think there is a gap in the market for an independent warranty company to have manufacturer style warranties without the exclusions for new cars so that people can choose where they get their car serviced. This would put the wind up manufacturers as it would allow people to buy from unofficial sources but still get a lot of the backing as long as the warranty pays out for the work it doesn't matter where it gets done.
See my comment about warranty-direct.
>>Perhaps the manufacturer needs to offer the cars at two prices. Onewith the dealer restricted warranty and one without and let people decide how they want their car serviced. If there is a limit on the percentage extra that can be charged then I would be likely to go for it. Not sure what would happen in the second hand market though.
Is this not what BMW are doing in effect? The 5 year service package is transferable to 2nd hand cars.
Citroen have started having parts that can only be used on one vehicle and have to be 'registered' with that car. This is more worrying than the price of tools increase as it means every part needed has to be specially ordered and the usual diagnostic route of trying out a replacement of what you suspect is broken won't work and if it didn't fix the problem then the part is scrap rather than reusable.
Don't buy a Citroen if you don't like their terms.
|
With regard to servicing, I agree with you eMBe. It would be nice if you could get a sales contract that guaranteed you against all premature failures but in the end, you've got to draw the line somewhere and that line is drawn by SOGA and 'satisfactory quality'.
Manufacturers and dealers have to make money somewhere; indirectly of course the manufacturers make money from profitable servicing because otherwise the franchise wouldn't be very attractive and they'd never sell any cars in the first place...
The Citroën individual parts situation is worrying though, firstly because it imposes an additional cost on garages, especially if they are not fulfilling their implied duty to use 'reasonable care and skill' in diagnosing the problem - and secondly because it creates very high barriers to entry for the competition - different parts manufacturers, independent garages.
Then you have something that is dangerously close to a cartel of manufcturers manipulating demaand for their products beyond what the market can take by limiting competition in products required further on in the vehicle's life cycle.
|
|
I totally agree with eMBe on this one, you are dead right mate. If you dont like the heat then stay out of the kitchen. If you cant affort BMW/MB serving then don't buy one of those cars. Go to the auction and get a Mondeo, get it serviced by a backstreet garage for £50 a time. Keep on buying your food from Aldi and clothes from Asda - the rest of the world will not worry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
