Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Warning

Recently the blockage of the Suez Canal has been on the news.

Dave Hinton, owner of a timber company in north-west England, said he had a consignment of French oak stuck on a ship.

The oak had been sent from France for reprocessing into veneered flooring in China, and was on its way back to a customer in Britain, Hinton said

“I’ve spoken to my customer and told him the bad news that his floor was blocking the Suez Canal. He didn’t believe me, he thought I was pulling his leg,” he told BBC radio on Friday. [Guardian]

As motorists we are being pressured into buying more eco friendly cars. Shipping and Aviation seem to escape the regulations on climate change.

How can it be eco-friendly to ship goods 5000 miles from France to China for processing into flooring and then returned to the UK with another 5,000 miles.

This is wrong on so many levels. Wood is a heavy material. Why can't it be processed in Britain?. I wonder if consumers, know this is going on. We are loosing skills and money to China.

Even fish caught in the sea, is sent to the other side of the world to the Far East processing and then back to the UK shelves.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/29/ikea-furnitu...e

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - catsdad

The total cost of producing goods, including the case for assigning full environmental impact costs, was part of my degree course. Sadly this was around 45 years ago.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - _

Because Nobody wants quality anymore, THEY ALL want cheap, be it food, cars laptops or furniture.

Try buying something NOT made in the far east.

Primark don't make ANYTHING in the uk.

My last M&S lightweight suit, (not cheap either.. made in the subcontinent.

Electronic Chips for ecu's and car control systems, 2 makers in the far east....

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Andrew-T

Because Nobody wants quality anymore, THEY ALL want cheap, be it food, cars laptops or furniture. Try buying something NOT made in the far east.

When wages in the Far East catch up with what we expect to be paid here, this traffic will no longer be worth while. That is some way off IMHO ?

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Engineer Andy

Because Nobody wants quality anymore, THEY ALL want cheap, be it food, cars laptops or furniture.

Try buying something NOT made in the far east.

Primark don't make ANYTHING in the uk.

My last M&S lightweight suit, (not cheap either.. made in the subcontinent.

Electronic Chips for ecu's and car control systems, 2 makers in the far east....

Indeed - though I wouldn't say 'Far East', given that most of what we're discussing is really from China, Indonesia, Bangladesh and other nations with a lot of VERY cheap labour and not much in the way of H&S rules.

Other than cars, I would find it difficult to name much that we buy in the UK that is actually 'made in Japan' these days. South Korea obviously has a base for cars, mobile phones, TVs and other electronics, but even they are slowly outsourcing the assembly to cheaper labour markets. They and Taiwan (and to some extent, Japan) still make a good deal of the top circuitry/computer chips used in other devices.

One of the problems with how the world works is that its mostly 'throw-away' stuff, often with a limited life compared to products designed/made up until about 15-20 years ago, longer in clothing.

I actually still have clothes (fortunately I haven't changed size in that time) made in the UK that I bought in the 1990s (M&S and a few others) that are still going strong, because they are high quality. Today's tat - even from the same shops - sourced and made in China, etc, doesn't last a third of the time.

I even still own a t-shirt bought in the late 80s (when I was a teenager) from the Co-Op (when they still had department stores - this one in Watford) that I use for grubbing around or (when working) on site visits - tough as old nails, but nice to wear, if getting a bit 'shiny' through all that washing!

I only throw away stuff that won't do the job any more and can't be repaired. My old mini hifi (Sony, made in Japan) from the early 90s lasted 15 years (the cost of fixing the tape and CD players was getting expensive, necessitating a train trip to London each time as there are no local repair outlets), my current Denon unit (made in China I'm sad to say) is still going fine after 14 years. Not sure what the next generation of stuff will last like.

I have to do so much more research these days to see how reliable/long-lasting products are. Most 'reviews' are a waste of time, given many are either shills by paid-for 'reviewers' (often staff) or rivals saying they are terrible just to get people to buy their product instead.

Furniture appears to be one of those things, like clothes, that are far lower in quality than used to be the case. probably why the likes of John Lewis have been in decline for a long time now - I started buying stufff from them after M&S went downhill 20+ years ago, now even they are often rubbish - as well as overpriced.

I was - nearly - forced into buying a new kitchen mixer tap from Amazon because alternative outlets either charged a fortune or sold tat (often not at cheap prices). I was lucky enough to source a decent product via a local plumbers' merchant without breaking the bank.

Ironically the pandemic has shown the advantage of making a lot more products in your own country, or at least nearer and sourcing from friendly nations. It would also mean a lesser reliance on Amazon and other near monoplies for certain products that have or could have too much power over markets and nations/people.

The problems over our new generation of nuclear power stations have the same flavour, given our long time expertise in their design has now effectively gone, having to rely on France and again, China.

Something to be fixed at governmental/international level as well as contributions by each of us.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Xileno

Plus factor in the disgusting bunker fuel they burn which is little more than liquid tar.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - madf

In any normal assessment of pollution, almost every ship and plane in the world would be stopped from being used. They appear to be exempt from any laws regarding pollution: teh only law they follow is the cheaper the fuel, the better.

Now the costs of making them comply with "acceptable" pollution levels will be increased costs for consumers as I assume that saving pollution will result in higher fuel costs and hence higher transport costs.

ANY - and I repeat - ANY Government which was serious about reducing pollution would impose taxes on polluting ships and planes so it becomes cheaper to reduce pollution than to pay pollution taxes. They have effectively done that with cars: why not with commercial traffic?

Answer : they are NOT serious.

They pontificate how much CO2 emissions they have saved through car taxes: but in reality they have achieved nothing and made things worse: see the push for diesel cars which mad e things worse. As the facts about the emissions of diesel cars were known at the time, you can conclude it was all a sham.

We house a second Chamber of unelected Lords who are there ostensibly to check such things. They did not. (there are now MORE unelected members of the House of Lords - some 800) than elected MPs (some 650). They did nothing.

If you really want to be serious about pollution, we need to vote in some people who are nasty, ornery and contrary. Current politicians are a bunch of yes people.( as opposed to yes men)

Did I vote Green ? Nope!

Rant over

.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Andrew-T

If you really want to be serious about pollution, we need to vote in some people who are nasty, ornery and contrary. Current politicians are a bunch of yes people.( as opposed to yes men)

If we were really serious about almost any issue affecting the planet, we would discuss the global issue of population, which affects pretty well everything else. But that discussion is a big no-no (elephant in room?) and probably would be seen as infringing Human Rights.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Sofa Spud

If you really want to be serious about pollution, we need to vote in some people who are nasty, ornery and contrary. Current politicians are a bunch of yes people.( as opposed to yes men)

If we were really serious about almost any issue affecting the planet, we would discuss the global issue of population, which affects pretty well everything else. But that discussion is a big no-no (elephant in room?) and probably would be seen as infringing Human Rights.

One reason people don't want to discuss population is because once it's out of the bag they could find themselves or their children are seen as part of the 'problem'.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Andrew-T

<< One reason people don't want to discuss population is because once it's out of the bag they could find themselves or their children are seen as part of the 'problem >>

I think the main reason is that everyone believes that as they are just one in a few billion, whatever they do won't make any difference.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Engineer Andy

<< One reason people don't want to discuss population is because once it's out of the bag they could find themselves or their children are seen as part of the 'problem >>

I think the main reason is that everyone believes that as they are just one in a few billion, whatever they do won't make any difference.

I suspect that if people had more information about the impact of our daily activities, they might make decisions that benefit their own health and of the world a bit more. For example, walking to the shops rather then driving (not always possible, but it is for many of us), or installing loft insulation in our homes.

The problem often comes when governments and organisations advocate changing X product for Y 'green' product because the latter is more energy efficient. All well and good, but it doesn't take into acount the usage pattern (which also includes the yearly cost) and the cost to change (especially if the purchase and/or installation cost is high), which will put off many (especially if they cannot afford such a big bill at the time).

My elderly neighbours changed their (new build 12/2002) original boiler in 2007 - because of a government scheme that paid for it. Utter waste of taxpayer money, as it'll never be recouped over the life of the new one, especially as the original had 10+ years of life left (I replaced mine in late 2019).

Rather like the scrappage schemes that don't differentiate between real (heavy polluting) old bangers that are about to expire and are regularly used for decent annual mileages and otherwise decent/ reliable cars like mine that rarely do more than 5k miles a year and would easily last another 5-10 years with a bit of TLC.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - alan1302

<< One reason people don't want to discuss population is because once it's out of the bag they could find themselves or their children are seen as part of the 'problem >>

I think the main reason is that everyone believes that as they are just one in a few billion, whatever they do won't make any difference.

I suspect that if people had more information about the impact of our daily activities, they might make decisions that benefit their own health and of the world a bit more. For example, walking to the shops rather then driving (not always possible, but it is for many of us), or installing loft insulation in our homes.

The information is there - it's getting people to do it that's the hard thing especially with so much misinformation coming at people via social media/friends/relatives etc

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Engineer Andy

<< One reason people don't want to discuss population is because once it's out of the bag they could find themselves or their children are seen as part of the 'problem >>

I think the main reason is that everyone believes that as they are just one in a few billion, whatever they do won't make any difference.

I suspect that if people had more information about the impact of our daily activities, they might make decisions that benefit their own health and of the world a bit more. For example, walking to the shops rather then driving (not always possible, but it is for many of us), or installing loft insulation in our homes.

The information is there - it's getting people to do it that's the hard thing especially with so much misinformation coming at people via social media/friends/relatives etc

It's not just those, but much of the media, industry, politicians, activist groups/charities who often lie as much about X or Y issues in order to further their own agendas, most of which have nothing to do with the virtues they signal.

It is precisely because the legacy media have slowly declined in quality over the past 20+ years, to the point that they rarerly, if ever do their original job of uncovering and showing what is truth/facts/lies and holding people/organisations properly to account, rather than chasing copy/agendas at any cost that we are now in the mess we are, with many people having to find out for themselves, which is hard to say the least.

It also makes it far easier for those deliberately trying to put across lies and disinformation (for whatever reason) to do so, because most people either don't have the time or inclination to spend enough time/effort digging to see what is true and what isn't - probably far more than many of us would freely admit.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Bromptonaut

Little knowledge of ships but I suspect if car engines had come as far as turbofans in the last 50 years we'd have a LOT less trouble with emissions.

Might do some research as apparently it's going to be too cold for gardening or biking over the weekend.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Alby Back
Too cold Bromp?

You've been living "down there" too long...

;-)
Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - badbusdriver
Too cold Bromp? You've been living "down there" too long... ;-)

Just been looking at the forecast here (N.E Scotland) for next week, snow.

Great!.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Terry W

The oak being sent to China for processing into veneer for flooring will end up as 2 or 3mm on a strip of resin impregnated sawdust or cheap plywood. It will no doubt be sold as French oak flooring.

Oak weighs approx 750kg cu m. It takes approx 15 cu m to cover a football pitch (~7500 sq m) - about 11 tons. Containers are cheap - in normal times a 20 ft from China to UK is about £1250. So shipping the oak works out at less than 17p per metre of flooring.

The value added in flooring has little to do wth the oak veneer, but the other materials, processing and packaging all using cheap labour with limited regard for H&S and the environment.

Most of us vote with our pockets. How many of us could honestly say when faced with two identical products - one made in China and the other UK - they would chose the UK product when it may cost 50-100% more.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Warning

> Most of us vote with our pockets. How many of us could honestly say when faced with two identical products - one made in China and the other UK - they would chose the UK product when it may cost 50-100% more.

When towns flood, they will be blaming the Government. How much does flood defences cost? To save £100, we end spending millions. We have to factor in environmental damage in pricing.

Migrants are trying to escape to the West, when their countries face food shortages due to bad harvests?


Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Engineer Andy
Too cold Bromp? You've been living "down there" too long... ;-)

Just been looking at the forecast here (N.E Scotland) for next week, snow.

Great!.

Snow apparently coming my way in the Bedforshire/North Herts/Cambs area today. Last year, we could only 'in theory' go outside for an hour a day - glorious warm sunny weather; now things are 'less restrictive' - blimming cold and overcast.

Will please someone tell The Almighty that April Fool's Day was 4 days ago!

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Bromptonaut

Snow apparently coming my way in the Bedforshire/North Herts/Cambs area today. Last year, we could only 'in theory' go outside for an hour a day - glorious warm sunny weather; now things are 'less restrictive' - blimming cold and overcast.

Yesterday was warm and sunny with temperatures in the mid teens. The morning it did indeed snow in west Northants. Now it's sunny but bitterly cold with the wind from a Northerly quarter.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - expat

Plus factor in the disgusting bunker fuel they burn which is little more than liquid tar.

There are new regulations coming to deal with this. Also some ships are changing over to LNG

thetribuneworld.com/2019/03/15/how-the-lng-market-.../

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Sprice

* Losing

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Xileno

Eh?

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Steveieb
Just be sorry for the locals in Greenwich who are encouraged to buy low pollution cars to comply with the London regulations and dispense with their current cars, then to see Cruise ships tied up near the Maritime Museum churning out black tar smoke to keep the lights on !
Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - focussed
Just be sorry for the locals in Greenwich who are encouraged to buy low pollution cars to comply with the London regulations and dispense with their current cars, then to see Cruise ships tied up near the Maritime Museum churning out black tar smoke to keep the lights on !

Burning bunker oil in port or near land has not been allowed for a few years now in the EU, ships have to change over to marine diesel fuel oil, a lighter grade distillate fuel oil.

There is also a regulation that mandates ships using shorepower when available instead of running their generators,

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - alan1302

Shipping and Aviation seem to escape the regulations on climate change.

They don't though - rules are tightening up all the time in shipping and aviation and newer, more fuel efficient systems coming on stream - there is just a lot more work to be done with them.

Shipping itself is very cost efficient though which is why it's done so much even over long distances - it's cheaper to send something from China on a cargo ship than it is sending it from the UK port to the shop.

Would people be prepared to make much, much more money for a lot of items if they did not buy from overseas?

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - bathtub tom
Shipping itself is very cost efficient though which is why it's done so much even over long distances - it's cheaper to send something from China on a cargo ship than it is sending it from the UK port to the shop.

What happened to this much vaunted rail link from Asia to the UK? It meant containers could be loaded onto trains in China and come through the channel tunnel direct to the UK. How does it compare to shipping costs/air freight?

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - alan1302
Shipping itself is very cost efficient though which is why it's done so much even over long distances - it's cheaper to send something from China on a cargo ship than it is sending it from the UK port to the shop.

What happened to this much vaunted rail link from Asia to the UK? It meant containers could be loaded onto trains in China and come through the channel tunnel direct to the UK. How does it compare to shipping costs/air freight?

Can't see it being very efficient compared to either - air freights about speed, whilst shipping is about low cost...compare the size of a freight train to a container ship and think how long it will take one freight train to get from China to the UK - does not seem feasible to me.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Andrew-T

<< Can't see it being very efficient compared to either - air freights about speed, whilst shipping is about low cost...compare the size of a freight train to a container ship and think how long it will take one freight train to get from China to the UK - does not seem feasible to me. >>

I understood that a container ship from China to UK takes about 6 weeks while the train takes around 10 days ? But a ship carries quite a lot of trains-worth, and the train needs every country on the route to play ball while the ship only has to avoid running aground somewhere ....

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - sammy1

How about the rich person building a £500million super yacht or flying your own jet. The rich people adversely pollute to the detriment if the less rich. The man on a bike verses the man in his car. That is the way it is. The whole concept of pollution, climate change, global warming is just hypocritical coming from government and business all over the world.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Terry W

Piracy is a problem with shipping but trivial compared the risks attached to relying long term on an overland train which passes through Belarus, Russia, Khazakhstan.

There are alternative routes which could include less than stable Mongolia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Iran, etc.

Consumption of largely unnecessary consumer goods, particularly if transported long distances is never going to be green. But be very clear it is most of us as individuals who make this happen through our actions.

Just out of interest - there are 54 billionaires in the UK. If they shared out their entire wealth (unlikely) equally to a UK population of 65m, each would benefit to the tune of £830. There is an error bar associated with this - some billionaires have more than £1bn.

But the idea that soaking the bloated plutocrat is going to transform the fortunes of the rest of us is plain stupid.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Andrew-T

Just out of interest - there are 54 billionaires in the UK. If they shared out their entire wealth (unlikely) equally to a UK population of 65m, each would benefit to the tune of £830. There is an error bar associated with this - some billionaires have more than £1bn.

That is an even more hypothetical idea than you suggest. If that wealth were to be evenly distributed we would all become the owners of bits of paper in the form of share certificates, which could never be converted and spent very effectively as many of the 'companies' would probably cease to exist as a result. Smoke and mirrors.

But perhaps we might start with Ph*l*p Gr**n ?

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - John F

And why not an international level playing field for fuel prices? Why no significant aviation and marine fuel tax? Taxi drivers have to pay full tax on diesel, why not farmers? Is petrol still only thruppence a litre for 28 million Venezuelans?

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - badbusdriver

Snow apparently coming my way in the Bedforshire/North Herts/Cambs area today. Last year, we could only 'in theory' go outside for an hour a day - glorious warm sunny weather; now things are 'less restrictive' - blimming cold and overcast.

Will please someone tell The Almighty that April Fool's Day was 4 days ago!

We have a lot of snow lying now Andy (Peterhead, Aberdeenshire) and, looking out the window, dinging down right now!. Was snowing most of last night along with strong wind which is set to continue through tomorrow!.

Not very seasonable :-(

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Alby Back
Such a diverse climate for such a small island isn't it?

I grew up in Scotland, and Easter weekend ( back in the late 70s / early 80s ) was often celebrated with our last skiing trip to the Cairngorms of the season.

My wife grew up in Cheshire, and her memories of the same period are of it often being the first family outing to a warm beach in North Wales of the year.

Undoubtedly a degree of selective perception in play for both of us of course, but those are the memories that have most naturally and separately stuck in our minds.

Edited by Alby Back on 05/04/2021 at 12:39

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - badbusdriver
Such a diverse climate for such a small island isn't it? I grew up in Scotland, and Easter weekend ( back in the late 70s / early 80s ) was often celebrated with our last skiing trip to the Cairngorms of the season. My wife grew up in Cheshire, and her memories of the same period are of it often being the first family outing to a warm beach in North Wales of the year. Undoubtedly a degree of selective perception in play for both of us of course, but those are the memories that have most naturally and separately stuck in our minds.

That is what predicting the weather here is such a hit or miss. There are so many variables which can change the weather from what was forecast to something completely different!. As a window cleaner, (especially in the winter) I seem to find myself spending an inordinate amount of time studying the forecast on half a dozen or so different websites, trying to read between the lines and suss out what is actually going to happen. Not a major problem if I am working fairly local, but some of my work is over an hour away from home and I don't want to be going all that distance without being fairly confident I will get my work done!.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - Bromptonaut
Such a diverse climate for such a small island isn't it? I grew up in Scotland, and Easter weekend ( back in the late 70s / early 80s ) was often celebrated with our last skiing trip to the Cairngorms of the season. My wife grew up in Cheshire, and her memories of the same period are of it often being the first family outing to a warm beach in North Wales of the year.

Brought up in the West Riding where, until age 10/11 Easter was invariably spent in the same Farmhouse D, B&B near Keswick. Weather varied from freezing with hail/snow to so warm we were cooling canned drinks in streams. But then Easter can vary from third weekend in March to similar in April; a hell of a change without North/South coming into play.

Why am I paying for other people's pollution? - focussed

What happened to this much vaunted rail link from Asia to the UK? It meant containers could be loaded onto trains in China and come through the channel tunnel direct to the UK. How does it compare to shipping costs/air freight?

The Yiwu - London rail link takes 18 days end to end and the shipping cost per container is about 5 times the cost of shipping by sea.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiwu%E2%80%93London_railway_...0(8%2C000%20miles).