Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - LGPG

Hi I'm looking for some advice re. my late fathers car. My mother placed the car in her name and acquired all the relevant documents/certificates from the DVLA. She took the car to an Arnold Clark dealership and they bought the car from her, everything signed over, receipt/invoice given and we went on our way.

Less than a week later they called to say the sale was off after their head office told them they shouldn't have done the deal and told her she would have to come back for the car due to the fact they needed my fathers will as proof, there was no will. They told her that somewhere in their terms and conditions it says something to the effect. I have read their terms and conditions and can't find anything but what I do see is:

9.1: The risk and ownership in your car will transfer from you to us at the point of purchase invoice is signed and the car is left onsite in our possesion.

Where do we go from here? We are undoubtedly going through a very hard time so any insight would be appreciated.

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - Bromptonaut

Bearing in mind mention of Arnold Clark is this in Scotland?

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - LGPG

Good afternoon, yes we are in Scotland.

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - Terry W

Normally if someone dies without a will (intestate) there is a court process to get the authority to dispose of any assets owned by the deceased. There are rules related to intestacy - in brief (I recall) the first £270k goes to the spouse, the remainder to children.

However there is a fairly low level below which I believe strict rules are not applied but this often depends on the company involved.

The point about Scotland is worth bearing in mind as things may be different north of the border. Hoever I would suggest your next step should be:

  • if the estate is large you need to get a solicitor involved to make sure that you do the right things in the right order. Particularly true if your father had large bank accounts or investments in his own name. You also need to deal properly with things in joint names - eg: house, bank accounts etc
  • otherwise, assuming the proceeds from the sale of the car are in your bank account, I would be inclined to simply tell the garage that:

(a) they have bought and paid for the car,

(b) you are not aware of anything in the documents supporting their contention,

(c) what was done was with the best of intentions

(d) you have no intention of collecting the car which was sold in good faith

(e) they may like to consider training their branch staff appropriately

Do this courteously, not angrily, and leave no room for them to argue the toss. They may just conlude that it is not worth pursuing or that they acted wrongly anyway!.

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - Bromptonaut

As Terry says the rules in Scotland, or at least the processes to be followed, may be different to those in England.

Through an English prism I can understand that Arnold Clark would want to be sure your Mother had the right to sell the car. They'd have egg on their faces if there turned out to be a will and your father had specifically bequeathed the car to you. If there is a will then in England there's a limit to what you can do until probate; the will itself would not necessarily help. If no will then in England unless the small estates exemption applied the 'Letters of Administration' would be needed.

There's a link here to Citizens Advice Scotland:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/family/death-and-wills/after-death-dealing-with-an-estate/

It takes you on to guidance on the Scottish Government website.

What AC can do to reverse the transaction if they've made a mistake is another question.

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - bathtub tom

If the boot were on the other foot, I suspect AC would put all kinds of obstacles in the way to prevent them taking the car back, not least a charge for its use.

Who knows what damage AC may have done to the car whilst in their possession.

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - John F

Hi I'm looking for some advice re. my late fathers car. My mother placed the car in her name and acquired all the relevant documents/certificates from the DVLA.

How? Did she forge his signature? In Section 8 of the V5C it says ' Law: If the vehicle is sold or transferred, both the registered keeper and the new keeper must sign this certificate. And even if she did this, the V5Certificate is not proof of ownership.

Mercedes - My late father's car and Arnold Clark - Avant

"My mother placed the car in her name and acquired all the relevant documents / certificates from the DVLA."

Was this before or after your father's death? Not sure what you mean by 'placed', and I don't know if the position is different in Scotland - but I would think it's the same in so far as you can transfer ownership to someone else (i.e. your mum to A. Clark) only if you own it yourself, outright. 'Nemo dat quod non habet' - you can't pass ownership if you don't have it in the first place.

The DVLA documents probably show just the registered keeper, who may not be the legal owner.

If she did own it outright, then the sale has legally gone through. But if this all happened after your father's death and the car had been in his name until then, she could only sell it if there had been a legal transfer of his property to her. If he died intestate, the court would normally appoint an executor or administrator to deal with the estate and transfer the property according to the rules of intestacy.

Point 9.1 that you quote above works fine as long as she had ownership to transfer.

Edited by Avant on 22/02/2020 at 23:11

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - Mchenry

Offer to take the car back and give them the money minus £1000 for the incovenience.

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - Galaxy

You can transfer the V5C of a vehicle to someone else if the original person on the document has died. I know this for a fact because, after my Father passed away, I had to do this because the DVLA don't like having vehicles registered in the names of people who have died. All the DVLA requested was a letter of explanation and a copy of the death certificate from myself. It's obviously not possible for the previous owner to sign the V5C transfer in this particular situation so the DVLA will accept these documents instead.

However, of course, the question of actual ownership is a completely different matter and may possibly involve solicitors and the matter of probate.

Edited by Galaxy on 23/02/2020 at 12:19

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - Bromptonaut

However, of course, the question of actual ownership is a completely different matter and may possibly involve solicitors and the matter of probate.

Nail head hit I think. Keepership is really about liability for tax and tickets/penalties.

Thinking about this the word chattels came to me. In England, on intestacy, the widow gets the chattels and the the first £270k.

In fact the term chattels is obsolete having been replaced via the Inheritance and Trustees Powers Act 2014 by the phrase 'tangible movable property'. The explanatory notes to the act are here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/16/notes/division/4/3

It would include a motor car except perhaps one that had been bought as an investment.

That act applies to England and Wales only.

There is an intestacy flow chart for Scotland here:

https://beyond.life/help-centre/admin-legal/dying-intestate-in-scotland-scottish-inheritance-law-explained/

That suggests Scottish Law treats movable possessions differently to the provisions in E&W as they pass to the widow only up to a value of £29k.

Perhaps write as Terry suggests but include a paragraph making clear (assuming this to be the case) that the car passed to your mother as a movable possession and they can therefore be reassured she had good title to sell. The relevant legislation in Scotland may be the Succession Scotland Act 1964 (as amended) but OP will need to research this. As already suggested Citizens Advice Scotland would be a good starting point for advice.

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - barney100

Citizen,s advice will be able to give you help.

Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - SLO76
The only way they knew that the car was part of a deceased estate would be if you told them. Otherwise the purchase would’ve been simple.

Take the car back and sell it to another dealer but this time keep the details to yourself. All they’ll care about is that it’s registered to you at your current address, no one asks for proof of purchase and there’s no way for them to find out the above issue without being told.
Mercedes - My late fathers car and arnold clark - concrete

As stated although Scottish law does differ from English they are broadly similar and this issue is not that complicated. No will presumably means a modest estate. On your fathers death goods and chattels pass to his spouse, your mother. She now has title to the goods and chattels and can sell them if she so desires. Title is everything, you can sell on item you don't actually own but title never passes to the 'new owner' it remains with the actual owner. Presumably the Mercedes has no finance attached to the car, but I suspect AC would have done a simple HPI search to check this. I think the sale stands and they will have trouble reversing the process if you don't want to. AC are known to be a bit canny and maybe they think they have overpaid and wish to reverse the deal. Tough luck on them. If you are happy you are on firm ground tell them to jog on! I hardly think they are going to enter into an expensive legal suit for such a fairly simple matter. Citizens Advice will advise, as stated already. Refrain from getting the lawyers involved at this stage, they are the only ones who win generally.

Good luck. Cheers Concrete