No insurance with a slight twist. - Jake White

Hi folks,

First message here but looking for advice regarding being pulled for no insurance.

-Approx 8PM last night I traded my car for another. Shortly before setting off I sorted the V5 for the tax and went online to make the insurance change (Insurer was obviously closed), however did not get a concrete email to prove it changed, just a thank you screen, this is exactly what happened last time I changed with them and it took them around 12-24 hrs to update the info. Interestingly the last time i changed with them i also got pulled over for no insurance but after explaining everything the officer kindly let me on my way (the following morning it had updated). As it was late and raining very heavily, and being nearly two hours from home, we got on our way to get the kids home, with no police insurance database of my own to check, or any reason to doubt my insurer we got home. Today, I went back to the owner of my now new (to me) car to give him the spare key and some paperwork i had left at home, I then get pulled over outside the previous owners house by police......for no tax....I thought it odd so checked on the Gov site, and it was taxed, to which I showed the officer. He then asked me to get into the car, usual procedure, licence, have you got insurance etc. To which he then says the car isnt showing as insured. Odd I thought but explained the situation and said the database should be updated from my insurer today. He then says it is in fact insured, but with the previous owner. He then starts down the path of booking me for driving with no insurance. I explained again everything I had done, and showed him my insurance app that also showed cover for my previous car (which the new owner confirmed to the officer he now owned). I also sat with him and went through my insurance app and changed the vehicle over again to my new vehicle to which he was then satisfied cover was in place etc etc. But then still proceeded to caution me for no insurance, and process it as an offense. I'm not one to dodge responsibility, but as cars are my hobby it simply isnt in my interest to wing it or drive uninsured etc, but an error somewhere has led to me being prosecuted. Have I got any leg to stand on as an appeal or am I basically better off accepting what they give me?

Sorry for the essay.

No insurance with a slight twist. - Palcouk

Your insurers App would appear not to have functioned correctly, or the application was put on hold, to await confirmation by a real person.

I would contact your insurers direct buy phone they should have a record of all of all transactions/entries made with your phone app, and would there be able to confirm the status, and time it was implemented.

If they can do that, in writing, you have a defence in any court case..

No insurance with a slight twist. - Jake White

I'll try but I'd imagine they'll do the "We've received nothing" to save their own necks. To further reinforce my point of them taking a long time to update their system, I just checked the askmid database and surprise, it's still not updated from them, despite now having an email to confirm the change. This is what I tried telling the officer that I had the same issue with them last time.

No insurance with a slight twist. - Falkirk Bairn

ASKMID can take a few days to update in some cases.

Last August I paid the premium in full, 2 weeks before the renewal date.

My car was shown on askmid as uninsured in the 12th Aug. It was the 14th before it showed insured. I had my insurance certificate & thank you for renewing letter so I was OK.

No insurance with a slight twist. - Chris M

Did the change of vehicle result in an additional premium or fee? Your credit or debit card would help support your story.

No insurance with a slight twist. - Palcouk

You would appear to have a very bad insurer, any use of the phone app with your insurers should be recorded, whatever the outcome.

The Ask web site will take a time to update

No insurance with a slight twist. - FiestaOwner

Can you access your certificate of insurance online? If not you presumably should be getting a new one by post.

If you don't have any documents showing the car was insured then phone the insurance company and state that you changed the car on your policy, but you were subsequently stopped by the police, as the car was showing no insurance. Can they send you something in writing (preferably a certificate of insurance) showing the insurance was in force for the new car prior to the stop.

If have a document from the insurance company showing that the start date/ time was before that of the police stop, then you're covered.

You should then be able to send a copy of this (not the original!) to the police/ CPS/ Procurator fiscal (as appropriate, depending on where you live) and stop any further action in its tracks, as the offence didn't take place.

Ask MID and Vehicle enquiry websites can take several days to update, they're not fit for purpose.

No insurance with a slight twist. - HGV ~ P Valentine

https://www.theaa.com/car-insurance/advice/is-my-car-insured

This does actually work as I tried it with my old car which has since been scrapped, insurance companies are very slow and they do not volunteer information about this, the police are not much help either, once before I asked an officer to check on a car that was new to me and they refused to help me, I once went to the pub and asked a police officer to see if I was over the limit ( had 2 pints ) and again they refused stating that they had to catch me driving before they could do it.

It is the vast majority that do their insurance online or over the phone, most phones now have a record thingy which means you can record the conversation, so in cases where they cannot get you a cover note I would record the actual conversation ( making a copy of it ) and ask am I now insured to drive vehicle etc, on date and time, as most insurance is only effective from the time you make the application.

No I would def not simply accept it, follow the advice already given and get an email or a hard copy of when exactly the insurance on this vehicle started ( make sure they include the time ), be insistent and tell them you have been stopped by the police and need it now, not tomorrow. If they say we will send it in the post then go to somewhere near you that can receive a fax and get them to fax a copy of the cover note ( make sure they include the time the cover started ) to you if they cannot email it.

I have no time for police like that, he was embarrassed you proved him wrong about the tax and was determined to prove himself in any way he could after that to establish his authority.

It is a pain but I am afraid the burden of proof if is on you, the authorities on the street will not question the devices they use because it is too much like hard work, but I feel you have a good case, I would suggest you continue to be pro-active and to try and avoid it escalating.

Ps. A mate of mine got stopped doing 50 on a single carriageway about week after the speed limit went up from 40 ( hgv ), anyway the police asked him what speed he was doing and he aid about 47, the officer was going to nick him until he pointed out the spreed limit went up last week, he walked away saying I hate you hgv drivers.

I had a run in with the police about a junction and I said to him that unless road signs indicate otherwise or you are directed by an official person you should be giving way to traffic from your right, his reply was since when has that been the case ( or something like that ) to which I replied always.

The point of the last 2 paragraphs is that the police sometimes do not know but will never admit that at the time.

Good luck, can you come back and let us know the outcome plz.

No insurance with a slight twist. - galileo

I had a run in with the police about a junction and I said to him that unless road signs indicate otherwise or you are directed by an official person you should be giving way to traffic from your right, his reply was since when has that been the case ( or something like that ) to which I replied always.

It may have been 'always ' in France, known as 'priorite a droite' but was brought in here to apply at roundabouts, especially 'mini' roundabouts.

Yet again a factoid not supported by the Highway Code or Road Traffic Acts.

(Driver since 1961, myself)

No insurance with a slight twist. - HGV ~ P Valentine

Most situations at junctions give priority to traffic from the right, so no it is not factually wrong. But enlighten me on a situation where you think traffic from the right would normally have right of way ???

If you are coming to a junction and turning left, there is a car coming from your right would you actually expect them to stop on the main road to give way to you ???

Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 29/02/2020 at 15:33

No insurance with a slight twist. - Jake White

Thanks for the help so far guys. The issue I'm having is my insurance said to the police officer they had no record of my changing my policy the night before (when I got the car) despite me knowing I went through it on my phone that night. I then went through it again with the officer while I was in the car with him. I now have a certificate that shows my insurance, but it is time stamped from when I was in the car with the officer, not from when I did it the night before. As I said, clearly there's been an error along the line whether it be their end or my phone. All I know is I definitely requested it be changed from the night before I was stopped. The only other thing I can hope for is a technicality. He didnt report/process/sign off the offense until after I had processed my insurance the second time (while in the car with him) so there's possibly a silver lining there. Just frustrates me that I've had a similar problem with my insurance previously and its happened again. But he seems like he was completely unwilling to be helpful at all. He first tried to insinuate he wanted to seize the car on the spot for no tax (despite it actually being taxed) and then said he couldn't seize it because it had the previous owners insurance still active on it.

No insurance with a slight twist. - Jake White

Also as a side note, the database is still showing the car as uninsured despite it being nearly 48hrs. Not good enough in my eyes.

No insurance with a slight twist. - galileo

If you have had this problem before with this insurer, if I were you I would a) change insurers or b) make all your changes during insurer's office hours by phone, requesting e-mail confirmation.

No insurance with a slight twist. - Jake White

Hi folks.

I got the letter today basically saying I can admit it and pay £300/6 points or contest it in court. The letter only states the date, not a time, 15/02/2020. Obviously I have proof I was insured on that day, so is it worth asking for a copy of the actual offence submitted by the officer or shall I just accept it? Thing is i dont want to go to court and they still say I'm guilty and string me up even more. Appreciate your advice.

No insurance with a slight twist. - Middleman

You will have a hard time defending this charge in court. The burden rests with you to show you were insured at the relevant time and quite simply you cannot.. The time issue is not really a starter. If you opt for a court hearing you will be served with the evidence they intend to use to convict you and it will almost certainly contain the officer's statement which will detail the time.

The peril of taking the matter to court is that even if you plead guilty (having seen the officer's statement) you will be sentenced in accordance with the sentencing guidelines. These suggest a starting point of a fine of one week's net income. But you will also pay a surcharge of 10% of the fine (Minimum £32) and £85 costs. So even a weekly income of just £185pw will see you paying more than £300. You may be able to persuade the court to impose a lower fine because of the circumstances where you genuinely believed you were insured but you cannot rely on it. In any case, six points is the minimum that can be imposed. Defending the matter but being convicted at trial will see a fine of 150% of weekly income but increased costs of £620.

My own view is that unless you can secure positive evidence from the insurers that you were insured (and from what you say that is unlikely) accepting the Fixed Penalty is the best for damage limitation. A very expensive lesson learned, unfortunately.

No insurance with a slight twist. - MGspannerman

Would the insurance company have a recording of your night before telephone call? I was verbally promised that adding a visitor from overseas could be done, only to be denied. I formally complained using the complaints procedure and they agreed my point after hearing the tape and things were put right. As I understand it the complaints procedure is a separate one from the usual call centre procedure and may yield more vigorous investigation and if not there is a right to appeal further.

No insurance with a slight twist. - Jake White

I think I'm just going to chalk it up as an expensive lesson. I've spoken to 2-3 insurers with all my details etc and so far my insurance will be roughly the same with the points etc. One was actually cheaper. Will most likely change my insurer as I've had nothing but issues with this one, between this, the last incident and a few others at the start they're becoming a costly insurance company. Anyways, I appreciate your advice folks and thanks for all the replies.

No insurance with a slight twist. - HGV ~ P Valentine

Middle man is right, it all depends on you being able to prove the time that your insurance started from. and if you cannot then damage limitation is your best play here. Just bear in mind that courts require absolute proof and anything less will not do.

No insurance with a slight twist. - oldrocker
If you had insurance on your previous vehicle did that not provide third party cover for a vehicle not yet "owned" by you?

Edited by oldrocker on 29/02/2020 at 18:53

No insurance with a slight twist. - Middleman

If you had insurance on your previous vehicle did that not provide third party cover for a vehicle not yet "owned" by you?

The problem with that is, even if it were so, by the time he'd driven the car away he already owned it.

No insurance with a slight twist. - oldrocker
That is why I put owned in inverted commas V5 presumably in sellers name.
No insurance with a slight twist. - Middleman

I'm not too sure what you're getting at, but the V5, of course, has nothing to do with ownership.

No insurance with a slight twist. - glidermania

Presumably the OP was caught out by ANPR which flagged the car up as 'uninsured'? Unfortunately, ANPR is quite good at catching deliberate miscreants but also catches out the 'innocents' in a situation like this.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and the wise thing to do would have been to phone the ins co the following morning before driving the car. But in all honesty, how many would have done that?

It also shows what a minefield buying a car privately can be like today with databases not always updating in real time. Many update overnight and anything not loaded to the databse before whatever cut off time it has (could be as early as 6pm), may well not update until the next run the following evening. Then the company's database has to update MID so you can easily be looking at a few days. Meanwhile, ANPR flags up 'uninsured' vehicles during this operational gap and pedantic police writes you a ticket.

And none of this takes into consideration using your credit card details to pay tax and insurance over what is likely to be a public access wifi connection.