Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - barney100

Bloke came round to do a bit of work in his ancient MX5. Looks ok I said, I've had it 16 years says he, passes the mot every time. That's what regular servicing does says I, never had it serviced he says, only done 10,000 miles in it so it dosen't need it. Not even an oil change.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Brit_in_Germany

Was his name John?

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - John F

Our carefully driven cars have always had an oil change every 10-12,000 miles. Only once did I neglect the Focus, leaving it 14,000 miles between a change. (It is now at 145,000 miles, using only one litre of oil every 3500 miles.). The TR7 gets an oil change every 6,000 miles, or less, as per the handbook. I have never had an engine problem, and one of our cars was at 242,000 miles when disposed of. Why do folk think I neglect our cars?

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T

Why do folk think I neglect our cars?

Because they service theirs four times as often, and they haven't had a problem either, so you clearly don't do it often enough, or are just lucky :-)

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Engineer Andy

Was his name John?

Shhh.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T

Bloke came round to do a bit of work in his ancient MX5. Looks ok I said, I've had it 16 years says he, passes the mot every time. That's what regular servicing does says I, never had it serviced he says, only done 10,000 miles in it so it dosen't need it. Not even an oil change.

There's little connection between 'servicing' and the MoT, except for condition of brakes and exhaust. If emissions and normal wear and tear stay within bounds, and the structure doesn't rust, the car could remain roadworthy for years.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - SLO76
Depends on usage. If this car sits in a nice dry garage for most of the year with only occasional trips out in the sun then yes it doesn’t have to have an oil change every year but if it’s regularly started and/or used for lots of short distance runs then the oil degrades and should be changed regularly. If this case is the former then it might be ok but I’d still change the oil every second year for all the cost of it. But if it’s the latter and it has seen regular use on 16yr old oil then that 10,000 mile engine will have 100,000 miles worth of wear on it.

He’s also torpedoed it’s value. If it had proof of at least occasional maintenance it would be an easy sale but with not even an oil change in 16yrs it’ll be worth substantially less as the sort of person who wants an old MX5 wants to see it properly maintained. I wouldn’t drive it anywhere with oil approaching two decades of age.
Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Cris_on_the_gas
He’s also torpedoed it’s value. If it had proof of at least occasional maintenance it would be an easy sale but with not even an oil change in 16yrs it’ll be worth substantially less as the sort of person who wants an old MX5 wants to see it properly maintained. I wouldn’t drive it anywhere with oil approaching two decades of age.

Yes accept that but he has not paid out £200 odd a year for 16 years. So he is already £3200 up, how much is a 16 year old MX5 worth ?

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - SLO76
“ Yes accept that but he has not paid out £200 odd a year for 16 years. So he is already £3200 up, how much is a 16 year old MX5 worth ?“

A simple oil change can be had for £50-£70 depending on the garage, less if you do it yourself and keep the receipts as proof. Plus I suggested every two years with this low mileage so there’s 8x £50 or £400 over 16yrs to safeguard the engine and the cars value. I think £25 a year is a small price to pay. They’ll only go up in value if maintained correctly too, with good Mk I’s in excess of £10,000 now.


As for value, well an immaculate low mileage Mk II with good history is worth £4K upwards, substantially less if the rust is into it or it has been neglected.

I just found a great car on Auto Trader:

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20200131678...4


I just found a great car on Auto Trader:

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20191107411...7


Edited by SLO76 on 14/02/2020 at 12:34

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - focussed

Bloke came round to do a bit of work in his ancient MX5. Looks ok I said, I've had it 16 years says he, passes the mot every time. That's what regular servicing does says I, never had it serviced he says, only done 10,000 miles in it so it dosen't need it. Not even an oil change.

At least it remains unmolested by the average dumb mechanic/technician.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - concrete

Towards the end of its sterling 17 year service our faithful old Honda did 800 and 600 miles in its last two years. I still had it serviced and MOT. Eventually SWMBO agreed that it was uneconomical and not fair on the car to do that sort of mileage so disposed of it. Shame really, even at 170k miles the engine was 'sewing machine' quiet and free reving. 10k miles in 16 years is not a lot. But how many stop/starts has it had? I bet the oil was in some state. I thought it deteriorated with use and age. Pretty tough those Mazdas. Cheers Concrete

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T

But how many stop/starts has it had? I bet the oil was in some state. I thought it deteriorated with use and age.

We've had this discussion many times, usually with John-F. Oil does not deteriorate rapidly with age if it stays fairly clean by using the car for trips long enough to get it fully warm. With short trips moisture and acidic combustion products accumulate. Of course 'use' for thousands of miles gradually breaks down the molecules mechanically. Hence the usual instruction to change oil after XX miles or Z years.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - edlithgow

Towards the end of its sterling 17 year service our faithful old Honda did 800 and 600 miles in its last two years. I still had it serviced and MOT. Eventually SWMBO agreed that it was uneconomical and not fair on the car to do that sort of mileage so disposed of it.

Obviously what you do with your car (and who you Obey) is up to you, BUT

(a) I don't understand what made it "uneconomical", unless it was too frequent servicing, which doesn't seem to be your point, and

(b) I don't understand the "not fair to the car" bit.

I can relate to a non-rational emotional involvement with a machine,since I get that myself, but don't see how that goes along with scrapping or selling it.

Just me, I suppose.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Avant

John - I would never accuse you of neglecting your cars. It depends on whether you think oil deteriorates with time and mileage, or just mileage. Opinions differ on that, but this is an opportunity to thank you for your unfailing courtesy in answering opposing views.

The standard of debate has undoubtedly improved since Skidpan left us.

"Our carefully driven cars...." That more than anything else is surely the main contributing factor to your cars' longevity.

Edited by Avant on 15/02/2020 at 00:19

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - expat

I got my car converted to LPG years ago with dual fuel. I use the LPG almost all the time and the oil stays honey coloured even after a year. A few years back I did a country trip where LPG was only available at the same price as petrol so I used petrol. Within about 1000km the oil was black. I am sure that the cleaner running LPG is good for the engine.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - thunderbird

I've had it 16 years says he, passes the mot every time. That's what regular servicing does says I, never had it serviced he says, only done 10,000 miles in it so it doesn't need it. Not even an oil change.

Lets look a bit deeper into this other than the simple fact its missed 16 oil changes.

I am pretty sure its a chain cam engine and normally they require fresh oil to ensure the chain is fit and well. A rattly chain is not an MOT failure but sure as hell means the engines on its way out.

If its only done 10,000 it almost certainly on its original tyres. At 16 years old they will be like concrete with a strong possibility of cracking. Cracks would be an MOT failure but age is not checked so the car could be legal with dangerously low grip levels in extreme weather and/or emergency situations. If the tyres are original the valves will be as well. Rubber valves harden and have been known to snap resulting in instant deflation.

Then there are the brakes. Other than checking for corrosion, leaks, piston movement and the handbrake operation the MOT does nothing other than check their performance. Any modern car should pass this test since the requirements are based on what an ancient classic should do on drums all round. As is frequently said on here brakes need maintenance to ensure they are working properly. And what about the brake fluid, at 16 years old it will not be at its best will it.

Then the non-MOT items. 16 year old antifreeze might still work as antifreeze but the critical anti corrosive properties for an alloy engine will long have been lost so what is the engine like inside.

Then there are the auxiliary belts. At 16 years old it is certain to have cracks. For a few pounds it could leave you stranded if it parts company at an unfortunate moment.

Yes, maintenance costs you money but that's life.

What worries me is if the owner of the MX5 does not maintain his car does he actually maintain his heating system. That is not a legal requirement for owner occupiers (it is for landlords) but its can kill owners as well as tenants.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - madf

"Then there are the auxiliary belts. At 16 years old it is certain to have cracks. For a few pounds it could leave you stranded if it parts company at an unfortunate moment"

Our 2003 Yaris D4D is on its original auxiliary belt (which is quite hefty) with zero cracks or issues...

It is on its original rear brake shoes . I have never taken the drums off..It is on its original front calipers which have never been serviced. The front disks and pads have been replaced and all sliding parts lubricated some 10 years ago. The brake fluid has been changed four times... The brakes are a sgood as wehn we bought it.

The OAT long (10 years) life anti freeze was replaced at 10 years...

The exhaust and catalyst are original...The rear heat shield fell off and had to be refitted with a bigger washer to fill the corroded hole.

Just saying..

Edited by madf on 15/02/2020 at 10:22

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Manatee

I've had it 16 years says he, passes the mot every time. That's what regular servicing does says I, never had it serviced he says, only done 10,000 miles in it so it doesn't need it. Not even an oil change.

Lets look a bit deeper into this other than the simple fact its missed 16 oil changes.

I am pretty sure its a chain cam engine ...

Then the non-MOT items. 16 year old antifreeze might still work as antifreeze but the critical anti corrosive properties for an alloy engine...

Yes, maintenance costs you money but that's life.

What worries me is if the owner of the MX5 does not maintain his car does he actually maintain his heating system...

Belt-driven camshafts. Iron block, alloy head. They don't change tyres at services. I suppose they could be original tyres but servicing wouldn't affect that one way or the other.

The calipers on MX-5s tend to stick, other than than if they work and have some pads left they will be OK. Perhaps the low mileage, summer use and dry storage has saved them. ABS sensors pack up on most MX-5s around that age, again servicing won't help. Ditto coil packs.

I agree it's not sensible to ignore it for 16 years but there are innumerable people doing normal mileages with everyday cats who don't have anything done until something actually breaks and stops the car, or it fails an MoT. That's why some evidence of servicing is a must when buying everyday cars.

Servicing won't matter much to an enthusiast buying a Mk2/2.5 MX-5. They'll be concerned about rust, in the sills, rear arches and front chassis rails. Truly rust-free examples are now rarer than rocking horse manure. Lots are sold as "rust free" but that either means free rust, or rust repaired. Tidy-but-needs-rust-repairs are worth no more than £1000 in a private sales. Otherwise up to £2,000 covers 90%+ of them. The dealers offering Mk2s at £4,000 are flying a kite unless they are truly exceptional when they will ask £5k-£6k.

I had a Mk2 from 2011-2017. I liked the Mk2 and decided I wanted a 'nice' one. When I discovered how many I would probably have to look at to find a genuine rust-free one (and I would have paid up to £5k) I gave up and bought a 6 month old Mk4.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - barney100

Very interesting points on this car, being a get it serviced at the specified times owner myself I am fascinated as to how this Mazda keeps going. Knew a bloke who had an old rover and apparently back in the day the oil was changed very frequently, he mentioned 1,000 miles but I don't know if that's true with grease nipples needing regular attention. I only go back to a Viva HC.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - thunderbird

Belt-driven camshafts. Iron block, alloy head.

I incorrectly presumed the car the OP was talking about was a Mk 3 MX5 which used the same I4 engine as the Mazda 5 and Mondeo and I 100% know (had one in the Focus) it is chain drive, alloy block alloy head.

But the changeover year was 2015 thus at 16 years its a Mk 2 which did have a cam belt, not sure about block material.

So that adds another component that has missed at least one change i.e. the cam belt.

The material of the block does not affect the fact that it has missed at least one antifreeze service and that only applies if the car uses the long life stuff. If its on the standard stuff it will be well beyond it sell by date.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T

<< So that adds another component that has missed at least one change - the cam belt. >>

The cambelt is something with such a long expected life that its replacement is easily overlooked or postponed. Not only that, if it fails it is usually ruin or an expensive repair or replacement for the engine.

When I recently bought a 1994 Pug 306 I asked the seller whether the belt had been changed. As the records showed that it had not, at least since 2008, he got it done. It may have been done before that, but I would guess not as there is still only 77K on the odometer. That was a risk I was not prepared to take.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - SLO76
The MX5 uses a non-interference motor so I suppose the risk of belt failure is lessened somewhat. For the US market where these cars sell best they tend to take a dim view of engines that live only on the lifespan of a rubber belt.
Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T
For the US market where these cars sell best they tend to take a dim view of engines that live only on the lifespan of a rubber belt.

Well, it's a bit more than just rubber, SLO. It's quite like a tyre construction, with textile reinforcement to prevent stretching ... Tyres lead quite a similar life really.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T

Very interesting points on this car, being a get it serviced at the specified times owner myself I am fascinated as to how this Mazda keeps going.

I think John-F will agree with me when I suggest that a specified maintenance schedule should be regarded as a list of things for the owner to investigate carefully and then decide whether the coolant or engine oil (or whatever) needs replacing. On that basis, do what is required. The schedule does not necessarily mean everything on it must be done or the vehicle will likely fail before its next MoT. It's also worth remembering that the MoT test will not tell you what maintenance needs doing, only whether a car is roadworthy (and legal).

If the owner does not feel confident enough to make those judgments, get (and trust) your local indie to do it for you.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - John F

I think John-F will agree with me......

I do indeed. This MX-5 is a young whippersnapper compared to my TR7, 40 this year, with its original auxiliary belt (I carry a 38 yr old spare and a spanner!). Its cam chain is fine even though there are several years between oil changes.

But I don't agree that tyres have a similar life to a cambelt. A cambelt, especially in designs where it drives nothing but the camshafts and a tension pulley, has a very easy life, doing hardly any work at all, and even protected from the elements. Tyres have a much harder life, and it amazes me that their top 6mm of surface material lasts as long as it does.

Edited by John F on 15/02/2020 at 15:34

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T

<< I don't agree that tyres have a similar life to a cambelt. A cambelt, especially in designs where it drives nothing but the camshafts and a tension pulley, has a very easy life, doing hardly any work at all, and even protected from the elements >>

The construction of tyres and cambelts have similar features; tyres clearly suffer a lot more scuffing, but I reckon a cambelt undergoes a lot more high-speed flexing ?

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - edlithgow

Cracks would be an MOT failure...

Deep cracks that extend to the belting would be an MOT failure, but shallow "cosmetic cracking would'nt.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - thunderbird

Cracks would be an MOT failure...

Deep cracks that extend to the belting would be an MOT failure, but shallow "cosmetic cracking would'nt.

Just checked and having read the regs that seems to be the case. I appreciate that the MOT is only the condition of the car on the date of the test but faults like cracked tyres that are clearly apparent should surely not be overlooked.

As noted before many cars only see a garage once a year and are never serviced. The owners never carry out any regular checks and believe the MOT is just like a service. You only have to look at why cars fail their MOT's to see that a majority of failures are not down to serious mechanical defects or even corrosion but they are simple things that any owner with Mk 1 human eyes could find in a simple walk round the car and rectify with a few pounds at any good car spares shop. Surely owners who present their cars at an MOT station on tyres that are bald or badly cracked should be fined and not allowed to drive away in a car that is illegal and has been used on a public road in an illegal condition.

I always ensure there are no major or minor issues with my car between MOT's and services so why should the scum be allowed to risk not only their own but other road users safety.

Impound their cars and either charge them to get them back after the DVLA have repaired them, have the DVLA sell them to responsible owners/garages, or if they are so bad crush them.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - John F

.....t this is an opportunity to thank you for your unfailing courtesy in answering opposing views.

The standard of debate has undoubtedly improved since Skidpan left us.

"Our carefully driven cars...." That more than anything else is surely the main contributing factor to your cars' longevity.

How very gracious of you, Avant. But don't imagine 'carefully' always means 'gently', especially when I'm alone. I think cars, like humans, benefit from vigorous exercise! Longevity of both is also to some degree a matter of luck. Recently I was nearly totalled by a psychopathic van driver and there is always the risk of a fluke engine part failure which no amount of servicing would prevent; thankfully rare now with modern materials and production methods.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - thunderbird

The MX5 uses a non-interference motor so I suppose the risk of belt failure is lessened somewhat.

Cannot see how the engine design makes any difference. Belt failure will happen not because of the likelihood of valves and pistons trying to have a dance but due to age, manufacturing defect of associated component failure.

In the last 40+ I have only known 2 people who have suffered cam belt failures and one of those suffered 2.

First was a chap at work in a 1970's Audi 80. Failure was caused by the auxiliary belt breaking and getting into the cambelt area causing the failure. I cannot remember if this car had belt guards, it surely must have but in my experience there is no way this could happen, but it did. He was on his way to Luton to fly to Barcelona for a family holiday, bet his wife was delighted. No damage other than needing a cam belt and auxiliary belt after being recovered off the M1.

2nd was friends of my parents in a Escort Mk 3 1400 CVH. These were well known for belt failure and desctruction of the head a very minimum, theirs failed at 30,000 miles. Very large bill for new head.

3rd was the Cortina that was the replacement for my colleagues Audi. 1600 Pinto with about 100,000 miles at approx 5 years old. No damage, just needed a belt. He replaced that with a Mk 4 Escort with a push rod engine, what a shocking car.

When you think of the miles people I know have covered its a miniscule failure rate but it proves nothing. If all the remainder have replaced belts within the mileage/time limits they should have no failures.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T

The MX5 uses a non-interference motor so I suppose the risk of belt failure is lessened somewhat.

Cannot see how the engine design makes any difference. .

I read SLO's response as saying that the risk of damage was much less, not the chance of a belt failing.

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - John F

Cannot see how the engine design makes any difference.

The cambelt design is important. Firstly, it should be well wrapped around the small crankshaft sprocket to spread the load across as many teeth as possible. Secondly, it should only drive the camshaft sprocket(s). Two camshafts are less stressful to drive than a single one. If it drives the water pump as well, it is at increased risk of failure if the water pump seizes, especially if the water pump is driven by the teeth and not the smooth side of the belt, which will slip and give warning by screeching and a burning smell before it fails and wrecks the engine. The toothed side cannot slip, so the crankshaft pulley will almost instantly strip the teeth. One of the best designs is our old Xreg Focus 1.6 Zetec, with a 150,000 mile design life. Last time I looked (around 140,000) there was no sign of wear.

,

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - SLO76
“ The toothed side cannot slip, so the crankshaft pulley will almost instantly strip the teeth. One of the best designs is our old Xreg Focus 1.6 Zetec”

Agree. This is an example of a very well designed engine. It’s sweet revving, smooth, very robust and puts little pressure on the timing belt. I often recommend them.

“Last time I looked (around 140,000) there was no sign of wear.”

Until you actually remove it and flex it when you’d see loads of tears and splits. I’ve always retained the belts from every one I’ve replaced and despite almost all showing no major deterioration while in place you can see the wear which is sometimes severe when you have the belt in your hands and can flex it. I’ll bet the belt in your 19yr old Focus will be very worn.

That said the car has done well, largely down to luck and your regular under bonnet checks. I do the same to intercept problems before they occur but I also replace timing belt on schedule. I find the cost offset by the extra money I get for the cars when I sell them on with a full documented service history.

Edited by SLO76 on 16/02/2020 at 10:11

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - SLO76
Non-interference means you shouldn’t see any damage if the belt fails. This was the norm in the 80’s and 90’s when belts did have a greater tendency to fail but due to demands for ever greater performance efficiency the later multivalve motors tended to be ruined.

I’ve seen numerous failures over the years and frequency was certainly greater back then but a snapped belt just meant recovery of the vehicle, a new belt and off you went. Instead today it’s a disaster of often five figures.
Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - Andrew-T
I’ve seen numerous failures over the years and frequency was certainly greater back then but a snapped belt just meant recovery of the vehicle, a new belt and off you went. Instead today it’s a disaster of often five figures.

FIVE figures ? I'd believe four, but five seems a bit OTT ?

Mazda mx5 - Servicing...this was a surprise - SLO76
“ FIVE figures ? I'd believe four, but five seems a bit OTT ?”


I do like a wee bit of drama but I’m figuring that some highly complex modern diesel motors fresh from the manufacturer and fitted by one of their dealers would see no change from £10k especially when one considers that a replacement DSG gearbox for a VW is in excess of £6,500 and a new 1.0 Ecoboost for a Fiesta is in excess of £6k fitted.

Edited by SLO76 on 16/02/2020 at 10:15