Aquaplaning - Lrac

Just wondered how common is aquaplaning these days? I happened to be driving a 107 in the rain last weekend and noticed it very briefly on 2 occasions. Tyres are top quality and in excellent condition. This was something that I had completely forgotten about but looking at the width and profile of tyres on a lot of cars it was got me wondering.

Anyone any idea?

Aquaplaning - Lrac

Suppose I should add that I appreciate traction control should possibly prevent / eliminate this but does it?

Aquaplaning - Engineer Andy

Suppose I should add that I appreciate traction control should possibly prevent / eliminate this but does it?

Traction control is about traction to the driven wheels when under load. Aquaplaing will still happen, as that's dependent on the surface conditions and that of the tyres (including tread depth/type).

See the below Tyre Reviews video as to why grip is more important than TC in such circumstances, and, for that matter, why cheapo ditchfinder tyres can be very dangerous:

youtu.be/_wo-9112aHw

Aquaplaning - badbusdriver

Just wondered how common is aquaplaning these days? I happened to be driving a 107 in the rain last weekend and noticed it very briefly on 2 occasions. Tyres are top quality and in excellent condition. This was something that I had completely forgotten about but looking at the width and profile of tyres on a lot of cars it was got me wondering.

Anyone any idea?

Doesn't matter how good quality or new the tyres are, they are still only going to clear a given amount of water. If because of your speed, or the depth of water, the tyre is no longer able to clear the water, you will aquaplane. Even the very best 'wet' tyre, can still be overcome if you are driving too fast for the amount of water on the road. The fact that it happened briefly on two occoasions suggests that in your case, it was a couple of patches of deeper standing water. Apart from simply sticking to a slower speed, there is not really anything you can do about it unless you can spot these areas of deeper water in advance and adjust your speed accordingly.

And yes Andy, absolutely spot on re cheap tyres (a personal bugbear of mine). I have read plenty of tyre tests that show where the biggest difference between a cheapo tyre and a good quality tyre really shows. It is where you need it most, in wet conditions (lateral grip, braking and resistance to aquaplaning).

Aquaplaning - Lrac

Yep I was " keeping up" in the outside lane of a dual carriage way first time. Second time pulling onto a dual carriage way from a side road so getting up to the speed of the other traffic as soon as possible. In both cases it was merely a split second but backed off the right foot anyway. I don't race around as I am content to comply with the legal speed limits.

Aquaplaning - Bolt

Yep I was " keeping up" in the outside lane of a dual carriage way first time. Second time pulling onto a dual carriage way from a side road so getting up to the speed of the other traffic as soon as possible. In both cases it was merely a split second but backed off the right foot anyway. I don't race around as I am content to comply with the legal speed limits.

You don't have to race around to aquaplane, and easing off right foot doesn't always stop it, often once it starts the tyre is floating on the water surface so there is no grip and can continue until the volume of water lowers for tyre to grip.

or loss of control causes you to have an accident which you cannot control

Aquaplaning - Lrac

That is an excellent clip Andy. Really hits home the point. We probably would all assume cheapo tyres are not as good as more expensive ones but its made me appreciate the difference could be life or death. Cheers

Aquaplaning - Smileyman

Just remember that as you drive you have just 4 small sections of rubber in contact with the road, each section the size of the palm of your hand. Good tyres may well be the difference between staying on the road or otherwise. Go figure what's important next time you change tyres.

Aquaplaning - sammy1

I posted a while back how some new tyres are marketed with only 6mm tread. Obviously a new 8mm tread would probably shift more water thus reducing the chances of aquaplaning

Aquaplaning - badbusdriver

I posted a while back how some new tyres are marketed with only 6mm tread. Obviously a new 8mm tread would probably shift more water thus reducing the chances of aquaplaning

Yes, and equally, the more worn the tyre is, the more prone it will be to aquaplaning. But, as i said earlier, all tyres will aquaplane at some point, as there is only so much water even the best tyre can shift out of the way.

Aquaplaning - bathtub tom

I've only experienced aquaplaning once. On the A1 I could see a river of water crossing the carriageway. I lifted off, but as I hit the water, the revs dropped to tick-over (in top at around 60 MPH). Realising what was going on, I dipped the clutch to reduce the drag on the driving wheels, held the wheel straight and resisted temptation to hit the brakes. It only lasted a few seconds, but it was frightening. The tyres on the driving wheels had only done a few thousand miles and were far from being worn.

Aquaplaning - daveyjp
A few weeks ago I hit a very heavy summer rainstorm on the M1 near Huddersfield.

Warning signs to slow down, I was doing 50 on brand new M&S tyres and it was enough. Mr 'I know better' BMW driver flew past at a speed which was well in excess of 70, never mind a speed suitable for the conditions.

A few miles later and cars with hazards on on the hard shoulder and Mr BMW is in the luckily very wide central reservation front and back end smashed to pieces. No doubt at all it was a result of aquaplaning.
Aquaplaning - gordonbennet

Sometimes it doesn't have to be aquaplaning as such, if one side of the car hits a stretch of deep water even if the tyre is still on the road the force of frictional 'braking' of the one front wheel can easily upset a vehicle, pulling you hard in that direction from which its difficult to recover.

Obviously tyre widths in keeping with the weight of the vehicle makes this less likely, racing car style tyre widths make it much more likely.

This is quite apart from the lack of water clearing side sipes in so many summer car tyre designs, you need some side grooves to shift water er sideways, with some of the current designs it would be too easy for a wedge of water to build up being pushed forward in front of the tyre eventually enough to lift it from the road, the lighter the car the wider the tread the easier it would be to happen....and yes it's as obvious as the nose on your face, a new tyre at 6mm tread isn't going to shift as much water as a new tyre of similar pattern with 8mm.

Aquaplaning - Bolt

and yes it's as obvious as the nose on your face, a new tyre at 6mm tread isn't going to shift as much water as a new tyre of similar pattern with 8mm.

But there are people that would disagree with that, and maintain the tyre tread design will clear water faster( I disagree with them) as water and tyres are both unpredictable and to clear water faster you need wide channels that pick it up and throw it away from the tyre.

having small channels with bends in is not going to speed water flow up, it slows water flow down, and although they have a pump action in the tread its not quick enough to clear all, and as mentioned a tyre has its water clearing ability restricted by volume of water, too much and tyre cannot cope

Aquaplaning - SteveLee

and yes it's as obvious as the nose on your face, a new tyre at 6mm tread isn't going to shift as much water as a new tyre of similar pattern with 8mm.

Yes, the pressure on tyre manufacturers due to eco nonsense is to reduce tyre rolling resistance to improve energy ratings - despite this reducing th elife of the tyres and therefore increasing pollution and waste.

Aquaplaning - alan1302

and yes it's as obvious as the nose on your face, a new tyre at 6mm tread isn't going to shift as much water as a new tyre of similar pattern with 8mm.

Yes, the pressure on tyre manufacturers due to eco nonsense is to reduce tyre rolling resistance to improve energy ratings - despite this reducing th elife of the tyres and therefore increasing pollution and waste.

Would less resistance not usally mean a harder, less grippy tyre so would last longer?

Aquaplaning - SteveLee

Would less resistance not usally mean a harder, less grippy tyre so would last longer?

Perhaps - but a, say, 5% harder compound isn't going to make up for 20% less tread depth. That said, more tread depth means you can often get away with a harder compound because the increased tread depth introduces more heat from tread squirm - but that then means a larger performance gap between new and used - it's always a fine balance - but all things being equal, more tread depth is better for the consumer - particularly if it snows!

I've used M&S marked tyres on all my cars for the last 20 years (unless no M&S fitment was available) an on those tyres I've never experienced any aquaplaning - I also never let tyres drop below 3mm tread depth. I witnessed aquaplaning at close quarters a few years ago, I was driving the other half's Citroën C3 on its cheap Chinese "ditch finders" (Nankang N607 M&S tyres) up the M40 in a heavy storm as my car was off the road due to a cracked windscreen, I was overtaking line of cars at around 70-80mph (can't remember now), behind me was an Audi tail-gating and flashing (why - I was over-taking) I saw a huge puddle ahead and just eased off on the accelerator expecting the worse in a small light car - it didn't budge an inch, In my rear view mirror I saw headlights/tall lights/headlights/tail lights as the Audi pirouetted into the central reservation missing me by inches.

Aquaplaning - Engineer Andy

Sometimes it doesn't have to be aquaplaning as such, if one side of the car hits a stretch of deep water even if the tyre is still on the road the force of frictional 'braking' of the one front wheel can easily upset a vehicle, pulling you hard in that direction from which its difficult to recover.

Obviously tyre widths in keeping with the weight of the vehicle makes this less likely, racing car style tyre widths make it much more likely.

This is quite apart from the lack of water clearing side sipes in so many summer car tyre designs, you need some side grooves to shift water er sideways, with some of the current designs it would be too easy for a wedge of water to build up being pushed forward in front of the tyre eventually enough to lift it from the road, the lighter the car the wider the tread the easier it would be to happen....and yes it's as obvious as the nose on your face, a new tyre at 6mm tread isn't going to shift as much water as a new tyre of similar pattern with 8mm.

My Mazda3's OEM tyres (Bridgestone ER30) were 6.5 years old but also only down to about 4-5mm tread on the front and 5-6mm of tread on the rears when I changed them for the next set (Dunlop SP Sport Fastresponse).

I did so because, within a short space of time, the back end broke away in damp (the road wasn't flooded - just a normal amount of rain) whilst going round roundabouts at normal speeds (and had done safely before many times). On neither occasion was a braking or accelerating, just steering.

To me, this shows that older and/or worn/poorer quality tyres (the original OEMs are poorly regarded generally and get very poor reviews on the Tyre Reviews website - when Bridgestone had a 'bad period' [my old Micra has some RE720s and they were great]). Mine had plenty of tread, but were obviously getting hard (very noisy) due to their age, and, to be frank, were noisy from about 1yo. Dry handling and grip were always fine.

The replacement Dunlops were excellent and never had a problem with grip throughout their life, including in the wet. If I had the choice of a car having either traction control and cheapo ditchfinder tyres, or no TC and high quality tyres, then I'd choose the latter every time.

Cars can have every three-lettered acronymn safety device under the sun, but if that's combined with cheapo, poor quality tyres, then what's the point - the tyres are the car's only contact with the road, and if they don't work safely in the wet.

This is why I went for the Michelin Cross Climate+ tyres to replace the Dunlops - designed for low wear, to work much better than the competition when worn and excellent wet & decent grip in wintery conditions (compared to summer tyres).

It should be noted that when I changed tyres last year, I also downsized my alloys (they needed replacing as they were corroding and causing air leakage in the tyres) from 16in to 15in, which were much cheaper (almost half price), as were the tyres (about 25% cheaper), not much more in total than just replacing all four tyres plus one wheel at the old size. The new tyres are a bit skinnier too (195mm wide from 205mm), which should help with aquaplaining.

I think that the move over to low profile tyres on many more non-performance cars is what leads to more aquaplaining incidents, especially as people (like my former colleague) choose cheapo tyres because they can't afford the high cost of the premium or even mid-range makes when it comes to replacing them.

I also think that too many people drive at the speed limit even when road layout and/or conditions mean you should be well below that, thinking that their car's XXX safety devices will get them out of trouble.

Aquaplaning - corax
I think that the move over to low profile tyres on many more non-performance cars is what leads to more aquaplaining incidents, especially as people (like my former colleague) choose cheapo tyres because they can't afford the high cost of the premium or even mid-range makes when it comes to replacing them.

Manufacturers are to blame for that, although I'm sure that that they would insist that it is customer demand based on the number of cars that sell with those wider tyres. And so a vicious circle ensues where tyres get wider and lower profile over the years.

Aquaplaning - Engineer Andy
I think that the move over to low profile tyres on many more non-performance cars is what leads to more aquaplaining incidents, especially as people (like my former colleague) choose cheapo tyres because they can't afford the high cost of the premium or even mid-range makes when it comes to replacing them.

Manufacturers are to blame for that, although I'm sure that that they would insist that it is customer demand based on the number of cars that sell with those wider tyres. And so a vicious circle ensues where tyres get wider and lower profile over the years.

Perhaps, but many cars have cost-free options when buying new to go for smaller alloys and higher profile, skinnier tyres. Saying that, I think that manufacturers have been reducing the options to do that, and have been upping the wheel sizes at the same time.

Many standard-spec Focus sized cars (like my Mazda3) originally had the option of 15, 16 and 17in wheels and tyres, the previous generation or two one size further down. Now all you get is a minimum 16in or option for 18in and vice-versa (if at all) for the nominally-Sport versions, most of whom aren't really sporty and don't require uprated (larger diameter) brakes.

This problem is exacerbated by the EU requiring all manufacturers to put in for emissions testing EVERY variant of engine, trim and wheel/tyre size, thus many makes (Mazda being one) have reduced the wheel and tyre options to save money on testing.

The daft thing is that if they had options for skinnier, higher sidewall tyres shod on smaller wheels, the CO2 emissions would be lower and mpg higher (the latest Mazda 3's are by about 2% and 4% respectively for the 16in and 18in wheel/tyre options), which would help them reduce their corporate CO2 level and mean either less EU fines and/or they could offer engines that normally only appear in (say) the North American market (like the 2.5 SA-G in the 3).

It's not as though drivers of ordinary will be either taking them on track days or driving at the absolute limit of grip and performance that would merit the extra grip of a wider, lower profile tyre, especially when improvements in tyre technology generally means that the higher profile tyres give very decent performance indeed, especially when compared to lower profile ones from a few years ago. I noticed no significant decline in performance (if any) in normal conditions when downsizing from 16in to 15in tyres.