All - Car financing - dan86

Whilst reading another well known monitoring forum which I shall call histin peads for legal reasons there seem to be a large sum of members on there who get verry uppity at other members because the way they have chosen to pay for their vehical.

You don't seem to get that on this forum you mostly get a good advice only the odd poster with tendency to be rude to other member's. But I digress.

If someone chooses to take out a pcp deal or pay cash, get a bank loan ect what is it of anyone elses buisnes. What do other members think?

All - Car financing - SLO76
Different financial products suit different people, we’re not all in the same position in life but it is frustrating when you show someone a way to save money and they ignore your suggestion.

My sister in law is a fine example. I found a great deal on a new Corsa for her, negotiated a healthy trade in price (as her own car was too rough for me to retail) and showed her where to get a loan for 2.9% APR but weirdly she took a deal from a small local lender she’s always used at almost 10% thus more than wiping out any savings on the car. She does this every time I help with a new car and she’s not the only one.

A good friend recently turned up with a used Citroen Picasso which they paid far too much for and got too little for their part ex which I would’ve bought for more and they took a PCP at over 9% APR meaning in total they’ve paid thousands more than they needed to. I honestly don’t know why I bother sometimes. The only things I can think of is that people don’t want to inconvenience me or they hate to see me make a few quid from their old car. People are weird. I’m happy to help.

But I digress, you are correct that no one should be insulted for their choices but I do believe that if I see a way to save them money I’ll point out what I see as the error of their ways or if they’ve already bought it then my suggestion may help other readers.

Edited by SLO76 on 29/12/2018 at 14:41

All - Car financing - dan86

I agree with you I like to help If I can point someone in the right direction. But this other forum they seem to get very irate because some one chooses to buy their car in a different manner to them selves.

I personally don't see the point in pcp deals as I like to own my vehicle and can choose to do that I want with it, I also tend to keep long term and get the most of my money out of the vehicle. But if someone chooses to lease or pay cash get a bank loan take the dealers finance I don't find myself getting all worked up. To quote one poster of this other forum it really "boiled his p***" that people take out cars on pcp.

My last car I purchased I took the dealers finance because I negotiated a better deal that saved me around 3k i later pais off the finances befor the first month but that might not wprk for other's.

All - Car financing - Avant

Agree absolutely. My car buying practice is different from Dan's but I absolutely respect his way of doing it and his reasons for it. Fortunately there are only a very few in here who think that someone who disagrees with them is therefore an idiot.

People like SLO who give their time to provide advice can be reassured that even if one person doesn't take it, because it's on a public forum others will see it and may be glad they did.

All - Car financing - daveyjp
I don't care how people buy cars.

Any car salesman will be able to tell you tales of how financially illiterate many of the car buying public are.

Couple this with the fact buying a car is stressful for most buyers and you can see why buyers sign on the dotted line not having a clue how much the car is actually costing them. PCPs are the worst for this due to the number of variables.

Deposit, monthly cost, APR, flat rate, GFV, trade in can all be manipulated to give the buyer what they think is a good deal.

However some will always believe £200 a month for 5 years is cheaper than £300 a month for 24 months.

Edited by daveyjp on 29/12/2018 at 17:18

All - Car financing - John F

There are only two ways of paying for the use of a car. Buying it outright, or renting it. A huge industry has grown up around the latter method to confuse and fleece the Private Car Purchaser. Indeed, I once read of Porsche being described as a highly profitable financial services company with a small sideline in car manufacture. Actually, there is only one way...

Dealer: How are you going to pay for it, sir?

PCP: Through the nose, as usual.

All - Car financing - andyp

There are only two ways of paying for the use of a car. Buying it outright, or renting it. A huge industry has grown up around the latter method to confuse and fleece the Private Car Purchaser. Indeed, I once read of Porsche being described as a highly profitable financial services company with a small sideline in car manufacture. Actually, there is only one way...

Dealer: How are you going to pay for it, sir?

PCP: Through the nose, as usual.

This is exactly the type of idiot that Dan86 is referring to on "the other side". Because all they can afford is a knackered old heap they can't bear the fact that others drive a new car so accuse them of renting something that they cannot afford despite having no idea of what the deal was or the of the person's income. Most people know exactly what they are signing up to and a lot of PCP deals on new cars can be very good indeed. It's a bit sad really that getting themselves wound up over a stranger's finances is all they have in their lives !

Edited by andyp on 30/12/2018 at 09:52

All - Car financing - John F

There are only two ways of paying for the use of a car. Buying it outright, or renting it. .............

............Dealer: How are you going to pay for it, sir?

PCP: Through the nose, as usual.

This is exactly the type of idiot that Dan86 is referring to on "the other side". Because all they can afford is a knackered old heap they can't bear the fact that others drive a new car so accuse them of renting something that they cannot afford.........It's a bit sad really that getting themselves wound up over a stranger's finances is all they have in their lives

What an extraordinary and somewhat offensive response to my post. Not much GSOH there! Actually we could have easily afforded new cars - we just chose to spend and invest mostly elsewhere. Averaged over nearly forty years the annual wasted capital cost of our seven fairly decent cars (depreciation/rent - however you care to calculate it) is between 0.5 and 2% of our (wife and me) joint annual gross income. And we still have three of them; none knackered, although the Focus does have rusty sills.

All - Car financing - Leif

There are only two ways of paying for the use of a car. Buying it outright, or renting it. A huge industry has grown up around the latter method to confuse and fleece the Private Car Purchaser. Indeed, I once read of Porsche being described as a highly profitable financial services company with a small sideline in car manufacture. Actually, there is only one way...

Dealer: How are you going to pay for it, sir?

PCP: Through the nose, as usual.

The third method is to borrow some money to cover some or all of the cost of the car.

All - Car financing - dan86
I don't care how people buy cars. Any car salesman will be able to tell you tales of how financially illiterate many of the car buying public are. Couple this with the fact buying a car is stressful for most buyers and you can see why buyers sign on the dotted line not having a clue how much the car is actually costing them. PCPs are the worst for this due to the number of variables. Deposit, monthly cost, APR, flat rate, GFV, trade in can all be manipulated to give the buyer what they think is a good deal. However some will always believe £200 a month for 5 years is cheaper than £300 a month for 24 months.

You're absolutely right many people have know idea about money and can't see the bigger picture thats how all this PPI scandal happend.

It can be bamboozleing for many people when they walk in to a car showroom and see all that shiny metal and the salesman is pushing this great deal at them. I've never gone in the showroom unless I know what i want but that's me and I appreciate others will buy on impulse and beleve every word the salesman is saying.

But if the individual can afford their monthly repayments then who are we to judge?

All - Car financing - brettmick
The strange thing about getting upset about this is that people’s situations are all different, but I agree about the abject level of financial literacy out there.

My example is... we bought a brand new Zafira 5 1/2 years ago on a 2% finance deal (HP) for £11k with the Vauxhall lifetime warranty. It’s a really bang average car, but a perfect family bus and as we don’t do many miles (it does zero commute as my wife has a 30 yard walk to work) has only 36k miles up. We will keep it for at least another 3 years, and we paid the finance off early to save some cash.

But I need a car for work, I am home based so every mile I do is expensed at 45p a mile (to 10k then 25p). I do about 8k business miles a year and about 2k private (ish). The most important thing for me is that the car is reliable, comfortable, safe and if it breaks I can throw it at the dealer and not worry about warranty quibbles or a loan car. I could make some money by buying an older car and keeping it for longer, but the extra £ a year just isn’t worth it when I could loose that and more in a day as a result of failing to make an appointment. Best for me was to lease, which I did on a zero deposit deal with prepaid maintenance for buttons. As a second car I went Focus sized and do make a little money each month which I put aside.

We could manage with one car, the main clashes being Saturday mornings when the kids need to go in different directions, but the hassle of messing about if she goes out in the evening and I’m not home with the car just to save a few quid isn’t worth it to us and the Zafira is probably worth more to us than it’s resell value (if you get my drift).
All - Car financing - Bilboman

Marketing is, at the end of day, the satisfying of needs and any half decent salesperson will tell you that they are selling the perceived emotional "need" primarily and the product itself in second place. Once someone has their heart set on a particular car, or any other product, the route to buying it (ie finance option) is the very last consideration.
Quick straw poll - what would other backroomers in urgent need of a car do if they had an unexpected windfall of, say, 10 Grand and no other pressing needs? New or s/h? Cash, finance or a bit of both? Bank loan, PCP, Dealer finance?

All - Car financing - dan86

If it were me I would decide what car I wanted/needed and then look for the best deal. Second hand up to 3 years old. If the 10k was enough to purchase outright then I would do what I did earlier up in this thread if I got a better deal taking the finance an pay it off in in one go or put down a large depisit with low monthly instalments over a short period of time. I cant ever see myself taking out a pcp contract. But thats just me.

All - Car financing - Leif

Marketing is, at the end of day, the satisfying of needs and any half decent salesperson will tell you that they are selling the perceived emotional "need" primarily and the product itself in second place. Once someone has their heart set on a particular car, or any other product, the route to buying it (ie finance option) is the very last consideration.
Quick straw poll - what would other backroomers in urgent need of a car do if they had an unexpected windfall of, say, 10 Grand and no other pressing needs? New or s/h? Cash, finance or a bit of both? Bank loan, PCP, Dealer finance?

I’ve been in that situation, except the windfall was personal savings. I needed a car as the old one failed it’s MOT and was to be scrapped. All this talk about a car depreciating 40% or whatever in three years is in my experience nonsense. Whenever I look around for a new car, buying new always seems the best option. If I buy used, dealers charge a fortune for a 1-3 year old used car. I’m talking about a VW Polo or similar car. I’ve always found it better to buy new using a broker, or a good deal, as you get the three year warranty, new tyres, brakes etc, more time before a new cam belt etc, and I know that the car has not been driven badly. In short you get a longer life for not so much more money. Thus far, touch wood, my car engines have lasted well, with never a worn clutch despite exceeding 100k miles in several cars, as I have the car maintained and I drive it in a sympathetic manner. Obviously I could buy a used car privately, but that comes with risk unless you know how to assess a car, and I don’t. Oh, and to answer the question I always pay cash or equivalent. For my last car the dealer told me to take out PCP and pay it off ASAP in order to get a £500 discount on the car. So that is what I did. Some consider that immoral, but VW Finance is a big organisation, they know what they are doing, and they charge a lot of people 6% interest, which is much higher than a bank loan. So I don’t loose any sleep.

All - Car financing - Happy Blue!

It is all down to circumstances. Two people, equally 'wealthy' want a new car. But one has mainly fixed assets and limited income, the other few assets but high income. One will buy a car the other will do some form of leasing scheme, or long term purchase.

It only becomes annoying to others if one party has patently gone down the wrong route or has rejected a great deal that was perfect for them. But no point being objectionable about it. It's their money and life.

All - Car financing - nick62

I think financially illiterate (or maybe just illiterate) people think a higher APR = a better deal (they must think it works the same way as a discount)?

All - Car financing - SLO76
In my experience people will negotiate hard on price and part-ex values but almost always simply accept the finance rate they’re initially quoted without realising it’s every bit as negotiable. They often end up paying thousands more over the full term by not shopping around for finance. Always amazes me. All they think of is the monthly figure and whether they can afford it.
All - Car financing - gordonbennet

I don't think many people are sneering or looking down their nose at others over car financing, it's often the case that they have years more life experience and have seen the booms and busts come and go, no matter which team holds residence in number 10 at the time, it has always happened and it always will.

Those old enough can remember the tears involved when so many lost their homes when the mortgage interests peaked and house prices crashed, and when jobs became difficult to find and keep hold of, especially during the days of the de-industrialisation of the country, from the mid 70's on.

What some of us don't want to see, again, is millions of ordinary working class people, encouraged by adverts the media the govt and (apparent) cheap finance, into getting themselves into so much debt and long term finance agreements to live some marketeers wet dream, when almost in the blink of an eye their lifestyles can take a nose dive, leaving the payments, impossible debt and constantly accruing interest over them for decades in some cases...for some it can break them leading to the darkest of places.

All - Car financing - concrete

I suspect some of the frustration at reading of some people being really foolish when it comes to money spills over into the threads. Some make terrible decisions because they can afford it. They don't look at the deal only the repayments. Silly I know, but there we are.

Criteria differ from person to person. I always look at the depreciation, which is the biggest factor in affecting the value of your car. Recently I leased a vehicle simply because the lease cost over three years was less than the depreciation the vehicle suffered. Quite simple really. Although I have no equity in the vehicle I am better of and simply hand it back at the end.

Previously I have always bought with a loan plus cash, at the lowest rate I could find. With savings achieving around 1% it is probably better to use cash to buy rather than pay interest charges. It is all horses for courses. Each deal and each persons case is slightly different. You just need to take a long hard look at the deals on offer, do your sums and make a choice that suits you. Simples.

Cheers Concrete

All - Car financing - drd63
No lack of judgement here either Dan, thank god you weren’t suggesting buying new on PCP!!
All - Car financing - KB.

...."Recently I leased a vehicle simply because the lease cost over three years was less than the depreciation the vehicle suffered. Quite simple really. Although I have no equity in the vehicle I am better of and simply hand it back at the end"....

Dare I ask what the lower depreciating vehicle was?

I suppose the Holy Grail is something with low depreciation but which doesn't cost £95,000. They do say that, percentage wise, a Dacia might depreciate more than a Porsche but that the actual monetary loss after, say, 3 yrs on the Dacia will be a fraction of the actual amount dropped compared to the Porsche. But then others will say they would prefer to be (or be seen in) the Porsche despite knowing the loss is (substantially?) greater.

All - Car financing - drd63
I think reasons for buying a Porsche, or any other sports car for that matter go way beyond being seen in something.
All - Car financing - KB.

OK, instead of "sports car" should I have said "any expensive premium car costing £95,000" ?

I think you knew what I meant.

(and the figure £95,000 is arbitrary, plucked from the air .... not specific)

All - Car financing - expat

I am afraid that I am very old fashioned about money. I pay cash for depreciating assets like cars and finance appreciating assets ie houses. If I have not got the cash I do not buy it. Yes I do miss out on great deals through various financing wangles however I do not understand how the finance company makes money on them and I do not go in for things I do not understand. By not owing money I can sleep easy at night. As GB pointed out circumstances can change and people can end up in a great deal of trouble. As for what other people do - that is their business and I hope it works out well for them.

All - Car financing - Falkirk Bairn

When I worked we ran 2 cars - nice car for wife & weekend use - bought cash & kept for 15 years. Cost £15K with 2,000 miles on clock. sold for £500 so depreciation was £20/week.

Work car was a run-out model Honda Civic - not top spec but was OK - cost £11K new instead of list £15,5K. Ran car for 5+ years - £200 monthly car allowance (£120 after tax)+ 45p per mile for 10K, 25p thereafter - sold for £2K.

A combination of monthly payment + mileage paid by the 2 companies in that time paid for all my costs -depreciation, maintenance + both business & private petrol plus a small profit for me as well.

Low buy cost, healthy business miles gave healthy expense claims, little in way of repairs.

The company car people drove much flashier cars & paid the tax & had the company worry about bumps & repairs.

All - Car financing - madf

Given the fact many car buyers don't test drive a car before buying or pay cash to someone far away for a non existent car, I am not surprised at people overspending..

Insurance companies and utility suppliers rely on customer stupidity and / or laziness /ignorance for their profits.

I have long since stopped helping stupid people who don't take advice.

All - Car financing - concrete

...."Recently I leased a vehicle simply because the lease cost over three years was less than the depreciation the vehicle suffered. Quite simple really. Although I have no equity in the vehicle I am better of and simply hand it back at the end"....

Dare I ask what the lower depreciating vehicle was?

I suppose the Holy Grail is something with low depreciation but which doesn't cost £95,000. They do say that, percentage wise, a Dacia might depreciate more than a Porsche but that the actual monetary loss after, say, 3 yrs on the Dacia will be a fraction of the actual amount dropped compared to the Porsche. But then others will say they would prefer to be (or be seen in) the Porsche despite knowing the loss is (substantially?) greater.

Hello KB, I leased a Volvo XC60. I checked the historical depreciation over the past 6 years and also the GMFV of a PCP contract. I compared it also to buying outright or buying with a competitive loan. The lease was virtually cosy neutral, a little in my favour as I calculated, so I went for that. I may not do it again when it comes to finding a replacement. My case differs also in the fact I need a decent sized diesel vehicle to tow a caravan so vehicle choice was more limiting. Otherwise the lease route worked well for me at the time. The on the road cost of the Volvo at the time was around £34K the lease cost is about £10.5K including extras like tow bar etc. Not bad I though. others may disagree but I am happy with the deal.

Cheers Concrete

BTW I wish you and yours a healthy new year and all other forum members too.

All - Car financing - KB.

^^^ Thanks muchly - appredciated. More food for thought there.

Something in me leans towards owning my own car and always has done. When I was 16 and had only been in my first job for a few months I yearned for a motorbike and saw a cracking BSA 250cc bike in a motorbike shop in Ilford for £75. I pleaded with various family members for a loan to buy it .... but without success. It got sold, of course, and I eventually went to a loan shark to borrow £50 for an old heap of junk that cost me another £50 and lots of hard work to fix it.. I then sold it for £50. Total deficit - £50 but lots of experience in rebuilding BSA C15 motor bikes.

Since then I've worked hard to buy future vehicles outright. That remains the case today (except, being of advancing years I don't work so hard now as I did then).

But if the bottom line was that I should lease or PCP in order to lose the least amount over a given period then I keep thinking I should pursue that course .... BUT to date I have yet to convince myself that there's a clear winner when it comes to choosing to buy outright veresus lease or PCP.

And the prospect of a Dacia Duster with the new 1.3 petrol engines lingers on the radar given that after 7 years it can't have lost a vast amount and may well have given decent service. Trouble is I like automatics - which currently rulesout that line of thinking, until such time as Dacia bring a petrol automatic out.

All - Car financing - barney100

How attitudes change, F.I.L. stuck by his mantra of only borrowing money for a mortgage. Everything else was saved for or 'done without'. Another bloke I used to know bought Triumph Spitfires every two years on payments and they remained the same when he changed....things altered and the payments crept up, that went the way of the dodo. Other people's buying techniques to me are completely there own affair.

All - Car financing - Manatee

Another bloke I used to know bought Triumph Spitfires every two years on payments and they remained the same when he changed...

You hear some wonderful logic when this happens.

A pal of mine has had four new cars in the 10 or so years I've known him, He always tells the same story, which is that it's effectively a free new car because his payments are the same as they were before. The free car for me would be the old one when I had paid the loan off, but PCP doesn't really encourage that.

It works for him, he has a decent inflation-proof public-sector pension.

All - Car financing - Avant

I do see your friend's point, Manatee: like him I'm on a decent pension, and I also still do some paid work. The amount of monthly payments is important, as is minimising the risk of expensive unforeseen repairs.

Indeed the PCP method discourages both handing the car back (all sorts of penalties for scratches, dents and excess mileage) and buying the car (you pay a large lump sum and get a car in most cases just coming out of warranty). OK - get a bank loan instead, but to keep the montly outgoings to match a PCP, the loan will probably be for a longer term than the car's warranty.

PCPs have done me well for my recent cars - 3 Skodas at 0%; a Volvo where I got £7.000 off list price, and the current Audis, mine and SWMBO's, which hold their value well enough for a good deal to be offered in each case. They were also good for SWMBO's first two Minis, which held their value phenomenally well but less so for her later ones which didn't. With her last Mini we started a PCP and then fairly soon paid it off.

All - Car financing - concrete

It is surprising the anomalies that occur when looking at financing. That is why it is a personal contract to suit you, which ever way you choose to purchase. Like KB I always erred on the side of ownership, bought and paid for and a warranty to protect you. However as I said previously, my lease deal convinced me otherwise. I may take a different route next time, but I will see what the circumstances are at the time and do the sums. No one size fits all here. PCP never even came close to a good deal last time around yet it worked for Avant. I did not look at Audi though, maybe next time. Happy new year all.

Cheers Concrete