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Just out of interest MLC, I appreciate that nowadays the traffic boys and girls are largely 'a division within a division', but wonder whether you would like to see something more like the US Highway Patrol introduced?
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I agree with everything MLC says and would like to see many more traffic police with stricter laws and more stringent enforcement/punishment especially for repeat offenders.
If I don't speed, run a dodgy motor, have insurance/MOT or drive dangerously what have I got to fear ? The more traffic police there are to catch the morons who cause most of the accidents, the safer the rest of us will be. Mind you I don't think our so-called government see it quite like that. Keep your chin up MLC and stay safe !
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What a surprise to see you posting a political point, V! ;))
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I suspect that road death figures have gone about as low as we can reasonably expect them to. With the millions of miles covered per annum collisions are bound to happen until such a time as control of the vehicle is taken away from the driver and our vehicles are guided by satallite or radar, something that will probably begin to happen within the next couple of decades given the progress of technological developement we see today.
In the sixties, with far fewer vehicles on the road the annual death toll was over ten thousand, and I believe the peak was something like 26,000 during the wartime blackout. We have cut these figures by a combination of traffic congestion which have cut speeds considerably and by building cars which protect the occupants when a collision occurs, not by improving our driving standards.
The Utopian ideal of zero road deaths is something that can never happen while fallible human beings are in control of machines which can travel together at 70mph and more. Even in the days of horse transport the annual death toll was higher than it is today.
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You have my sympathy MLC for I was there prior to the late 70's/80's, the halcyon days and then the rot started.
Until such time you have the higher echelon made up of those that have been through 'The Mill', instead of rising through the ranks from inside offices and on the backs of others. Instead of pontifying from warm offices and golf course, show service to the Public who pay their wages instead of personal advancement - how many Chiefs do you know that serve more than 6 years in the same Force? - then your saddled with what you have got today. They come, churn up the Force and depart to pastures new to do the same again. Can you name one who has yet to mention the destruction of Public support and co-operation through Speed Cameras erected at sites against the critera of accident spot.
My day in North Riding Yorkshire Constabulary we had three cars out on the A.1 between Dishforth and Scotch Corner with two on nights. Other roads were similarly covered. Now you have a job to see one.In addition to the central role of Traffic enforcement a benefit never appreciated by the 'new boys' was the amount of crime a well staffed Traffic Division cleared up through attacking the travelling criminal which no camera or electronic device will capture.
Until you get Chiefs with some backbone and prepared to take a stand on Policing matters of importance against HMG and the Home Office PC boys and their paper exercises then you are doomed.
DVD
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Unfortunately, just like most organisations, the higher up the tree, the greater the influence of the office politicians and PC buzz speak ruling the day in defiance of common sense.
Fewer and fewer around of the wise old traffic gaffers who come out with advice like, "If you chase someone whose only offence is speeding then you've just doubled the risk to the public. Him AND you!"
And when you get Divisional Commanders (no names no packdrill)looking as if they've just conquered potty training it does not inspire confidence in the troops and public.
Personally I thought the pre CPS days where the police brought their own prosecutions were better. The evidence being thought through properly, had to be right, near enough not good enough IMHO. Of course it means a totally different staffing level.
re churning up the Force followed by pastures new. Not referring to K.H. by any chance? ;-)
FiF
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FiF,
And when you get Divisional Commanders (no names no packdrill)looking as if they've just conquered potty training it does not inspire confidence in the troops and public.
Let me say at the start I am very much on the side of the police and feel we are well served by them. However your statement above should not go unchallenged.
For years the police resisted the introduction of a fast track 'officer class' in the manner of the Armed Services. Now it has been introduced(in a fashion) it can only improve the Police service if high quality graduates - lawyers etc can join and have accelerated promotion and bring new thinking to bear.
Is it really necessary to spend many years on the beat or in a squad car to appreciate all of the problems. Officers in the Army aren't expected to spend years as an infantryman; they are trained to lead and an essential part of that training is listening to the Corporals and Sergeants who have the experience. Similarly a young Superintendent etc can take advice from older and more experienced Coppers.
C
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Cardew,
As I'm sure you appreciate I too support the boys-in-blue and consider, despite the umpty % rise for West Mercia in my latests council tax bill that MLC and his cronies are worth twice the money. But...
When graduates come out of university they *might* if they are very very good students know all the ins and outs of some particular subject, even if it is the law. But in reality they know square root of beggar all in how to apply in practice. So they have to be trained.
And don't even try... no; don't even *begin* to try to compare plod training with the likes of the officer training at Dartmouth, Sandhurst and Cranwell.
Sorry!
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Cardew - this mechanism sounds to me a bit like the manager class that have taken over trying to run the railways (which were carved up to create more job opportunities for them). I don't believe there was any job training for them either, so they may know which is the front of a train, but not much more.
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FiF,
I obviously haven't made myself clear.
I was most certainly not comparing standard 'plod' training with officer training at the 3 Armed Service establishments; just the opposite!
You made the point that young Divisional Commanders did not inspire confidence.
I was pointing out that the police have - at long last - introduced a 'fast track'(high potential development) entry scheme where entrants can get promoted quickly and get to the National Police College and get the professional training for 'Command' appointments at a much earlier age.
In the past the Police Service(generally) did not attract recruits of the same calibre as those for Officer training in the Armed Forces. An officer in the Army could, and can, reach the rank of Major at aged 31 and Lt Col at 37. Under the old police promotion system you would be pushed to make Sgt and Inspector at those ages. At least the new police 'fast track' system has gone some way toward the introduction of officer training without the necessity of spending years on the beat.
So for me, a youthful senior police officer inspires as much confidence as a youthful Army officer.
C
Andrew,
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Before I joined the Police I passaed through Dartmouth and served as a Naval Officer. You simply cannot compare the two. I wouldn't have been given command of a Frigate five years from joining the Navy. My level of experience simply wouldn't have reached the required level, despite having been at sea for four of those years. However, 'fast-track'officers serve two years probation, disappear into office posts for three years and can re-emerge as Superintendants with a Divisional Command. They may have never attended a serious incident/accident in their life. The Police Service is rapidly reaching a point where it is led by civilians in uniform. You cannot understand the job unless you've been there. Most of the new breed haven't.
MLC
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MLC,
I am well acquainted with the thrust of your argument, and aware that many of your colleagues have similar reservations. However I respectfully disagree that "you can't understand the job until you have been there;" although clearly there are advantages to have more personal experience.
There are currently Generals, and I suspect Admirals, without a single campaign medal and the majority of the Army officers in Iraq had not previously seen combat.
I do not disagree that to expect an officer to be a Divisional Commander as a Superintendent 3 years after probation is unrealistic - and I have never seen such rapid promotion.
None of the 3 Services expect to get their senior officers for Command appointments from officers commissioned after many years in non-commissioned rank; and neither, IMHO, should the police.
Which brings me back to where I entered this discussion - that a youthful looking Divisional Commander can also inspire confidence.
C
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MLC, thanks for the support, and I guess you know mine is reciprocal.
Cardew, my last reply was a bit snippy, sorry for that
Recognising that one of us is adopting a slight devil's advocate approach, and that might apply to both of us, I really do see the principle behind what you are saying.
The optimum approach is almost certainly somewhere between the two extremes regardless of the organisation be it the Andrew, plod or commercial business; i.e.risky to have the GL solely selected from the "graduate" classes thus potentially stifling ambition for the troops. Equally it would be a poor organisation which relied solely on old sweats rising through the ranks, a proportion of the elevations being on membership of the right golf club/lodge, and lets face it, the latter still happens too much.....allegedly.
Also regarding your comment that "young Divisional Commanders can inspire confidence" I'm sure some can and, in reality, some do, so I guess that is an agreement. I do have one failing though, ( only one? - as if!) and that is speaking as I find. So yours truly remains to be convinced.
Seeing as I can't find a motoring link to keep on topic better leave it there.
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FiF,
Thanks for that - I agree with your definition of the optimum approach!
C
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Andrew,
If the railway management class have the proper training they will be able to ask someone which is the back of the train!
I don't subscribe to the theory that it is necessary to spend many years 'in the ranks' before you can manage in any field; in fact it is often counter-productive to do so.
C
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Check out page 5 of the Sunday Times driving section:
“Speed cameras are a very important weapon in trying to improve the way that people drive, but they can’t cover everywhere and more importantly they don’t do the things which we used to do as old-time traffic cops: actually arrest people for bad driving,” says Chief Superintendent Mike McAndrew, the former head of traffic for the Metropolitan police and a spokesman for the Superintendents’ Association.
“That’s why careless, dangerous and reckless prosecutions have gone down. Cops don’t have the time to deal with them any more, but that is what causes collisions and so we ought to be tackling it.”
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,588-658962,00.html
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Dishforth!!!!!! You made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up DVD.
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